What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?

[Atwood]

Whilst we hip hop the rabbit path, note how
nobody has shown a verse for the idea that an unbaptized believer is condemned.

It is also wrong to quote "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" that's none-biblical you misquoted it.

It is Biblical. I did NOT misquote. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Liars go to the Lake of Fire. I did NOT misquote. I quoted nothing. No quote marks were used at all.

Here is the quote (ASV):

"For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: 3 if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord."

 

[TruthisPower]

Wow are you serious?

You said :To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"


That statement comes from that deprived scripture (2 Corinthians 5:8)


and you shouldn't have said it anyways because there is no scripture to back up your quoted statement

Because then why would you have said it if you don't believe in it? and there was no point in making it

 

[Atwood]

Once more,
no passage is given to sustain the theory that an unbaptized believer is condemned.

This has been addressed numerous times on this forum. First of all, you don't know if the thief was baptized or not.

No baptism is mentioned in the story. But yes, you water-baptism-idolaters have been refuted many times on this forum. You have been shown how many, many passages offer salvation and justification by faith/belief alone with no reference to any water. Yet you persist in clinging to the idolatry of salvation by works, despite the Bible telling you that it is by grace through faith, not of works.

The it would do,not tell us. However, even if he was, he is not an example for us today.

Since there is but one way of salvation all through the Bible he is an example for us today. "Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come."

Even in the Law period we see the same salvation method as today, by way of picture: The bronze serpent is held up & it is look (in faith) & live.
The rock is smitten, as Christ was smitten, nailed to the cross. Water comes forth like living water of salvation.
The second time, Moses is told to speak to the rock (for whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord [call of faith] shall be saved). Moses ruins the example by smiting the rock the 2nd time -- Christ died once for all; no death again is needed; just speak to the rock.

The thief lived under the old Law and was not subject to baptism. Christs baptism of the great Commission did not go into effect until after His death. Please see Hebrews 9:16-17.

Heb 9:16-17 does not mention baptism.

So now you abandon any argument from John 3, since it is under the old law. And do you abandon all the teachings of Jesus on earth because they are under the law? If you will cut off the thief because the law is in force until the crucifixion is ended, you must cut off all the Teachings of Jesus on earth. So you may not argue from His teachings any longer.

His baptism did not go into effect until after His Death.

He did perform through his disciples water-baptism during his ministry. But yes, the Baptism of the Spirit did not go into effect until Acts 2, Pentecost.

Moreover, postulating different ways to be saved in different dispensations is unscriptural. All through the Bible salvation is by belief/faith, of which Abraham is the great example.

The big reason for rejecting the water-idolatry, is that scripture so many times offers salvation just for faith/believing.

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Atwood]

The deluded persist in delusion, but
cannot prove any scripture to sustain the theory that an unbaptized believer is condemned.

Because what you are saying is non-scriptural [sic]
and My topic is related to what happens to a unbaptized believer.

What I say is very scriptural, & the forum has been plastered with the proof.
What I am reading from you sounds like a JW hobby horse to me, off topic.
If you wish to argue the error of "soul sleep," you are off topic. For whether a person who dies goes to Heaven now or waits the resurrection with the New Earth, does not affect the question of whether or not an unbaptized believer is condemned.

I see a bunch of tortured argument with no scripture proof.
When the entombed people hear his voice, it will be because their spirits have been reunited with their bodies. The text of John 5 does not say that the spirits of persons dead are in the tomb before reunion for resurrection.

Neither John 11 nor John 6 proves any of your claims.

everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

As you see, without any baptism, everyone who trusts the Lord Jesus as Savior has everlasting life. Everyone implies everyone, so lack of baptism could not disqualify. And to recognize Him, they must acknowledge that He is YHWH; for Rom 10:13 calls Him YHWH. He has the name that is above every name, YHWH. He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, God who became man. When one calls on His name for salvation, it must be as YHWH.

John 3 does not mention baptism. And being born again happens when a man trusts the Lord Jesus as SAvior; it has nothing to do with water baptism.

1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again [past tense, already accomplished] unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance
incorruptible, and
undefiled, and
that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you, 5 who
by the power of God are guarded
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[TruthisPower]

NO, you don't have to be saved by being born again (Baptism)

No one is saying that, all we are saying Or I, is that, for you to go into heaven You must be born again but if not, you don't share in heavenly hope with others. You are saved in the earthly hope.

One can be save by their Faith , but without Baptism being present, then he cannot see Heaven. Faith does not merit someone into heaven without qualifying for it.

(2 Peter 3:13) But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

Not every HUMAN goes into heaven some stay here on earth

There is a difference on the time table when Jesus came down to Earth of the People that Died before his presence, don't go to heaven at all. Only the ones after Jesus death was when heaven became a privilege.


Entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held back from peoples minds as a prospect for Jesus faithful disciples but on the basis of their having "stuck with him in his trials" something the Thief had never done.
(Luke 22:28-30) “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

So I agree with you, faith in Jesus does save you, but I don't agree that it allows you the entrance into heaven because faith without works doesn't permit it. One must accomplish certain task to get into heaven. Nor was the Thief one of the conquerors that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in the first resurrection.

(Revelation 3:11, 12) I am coming quickly. Keep holding fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown. 12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

(Revelation 3:21) To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

(Revelation 12:10, 11) I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.

(Revelation 14:1-4) Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(Revelation 20:4-6) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

SO what happens to a unbaptized believer? he shares in a hope of being resurrected on that lat day. To the earth that is promised him at 2 Peter3:13

 

[Atwood]

You said :To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
That statement comes from that deprived scripture (2 Corinthians 5:8)

No scripture is "deprived."

and you shouldn't have said it anyways because there is no scripture to back up your

quoted statement

Scripture:

"For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: 3 if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord."

The clear implication is that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. It is not just that we are willing to be absent, but we know that in the body we are absent from the Lord. And we know that when we are absent we have a habitation in the heavens for which we long. The alternative home is in the Heavens and with the Lord. Our willingness is not for something imaginary, but real. And the fact that we are willing to be at home with the Lord does not imply that the home with the Lord is not real.

All this has nothing to do with an alleged condemnation of unbaptized believers.

 

[Atwood]

It would appear that someone with JW doctrine is trying to shanghai the thread & argue about soul sleep here, and Heaven vs New Earth as destiny, which has nothing to do with the thread.

Nothing presented proves a thing about condemnation of unbaptized believers, nor has any special destiny been proven aside from that of all believers.

Being born again has nothing to do with baptism.

Not one verse in all the Bible says that new birth comes by baptism.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[TruthisPower]

He was stating that while he was here on earth he longed for to be with God In no way or form did he imply that if you are not with your body meaning your dead , that you are alive in heaven at that given moment, for he new he wouldn't be resurrected until later on.

So you were saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, its not scriptural (you cant add the word IS in the sentence) That would imply when you die you automatically go to heaven, for at this moment No One is in heaven at this point.

I do see your point but you shouldn't say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
It does not say those exact words nor it it implying it.

(2 Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord
(2 Corinthians 5:8) But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home (Heaven) with the Lord.

what it actually means is
But I would rather at this moment be taken from my body (absent)so as if I was sleeping in death (time in death is but a blink of an eye)I could sooner be reunited with my Lord that is in heaven where I want to be

Ther is no such thing as a condemned person that was never baptize and believes in God. But the thief was A unbaptized beliver. And thats whom I was refering to. To be condemned is not scriptual at all but olny people that turn their cheek towards God they are sentenced to death for eternity.

 

[TruthisPower]

someone on here is trying to pass their satanic view on Non scriptural documentation by twisting words to fit their theory

(John 3:3-8) In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·de′mus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed because I told you: You people must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.”

Being born again does have something to do with water and holy spirit which in turns is making reference to Be Born again

some will try to refuse it but there only refusing God

(Mark 4:11-13) He said to them: “To you the sacred secret of the Kingdom of God has been given, but to those outside all things are in illustrations, 12 so that, though looking, they may look and still not see, and though hearing, they may hear and still not get the sense of it; nor will they ever turn back and receive forgiveness.” 13 Further, he said to them: “You do not know this illustration, so how will you understand all the other illustrations?

 

[Atwood]

No Bible text has been posted to prove that the unbaptized believer is condemned.

And no scripture proves a weird theory that unbaptized believers get 2nd class status, as denied Heaven, but allowed New Earth.

someone on here is trying to pass their satanic view on Non scriptural documentation by twisting words to fit their theory

I don't disagree with that one.

(John 3:3-8) In response Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nic·o·de′mus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7  Do not be amazed because I told you: You people must be born again. 8  The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who has been born from the spirit.”

One cannot enter the Kingdom based on physical birth from a mother, a birth of water. A new birth by the Spirit of God is required. Baptism is not mentioned. Spirit baptism would not happen until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Nicodemus was not being told to be Spirit-baptized at this point, neither does baptize occur in the passage. The context is natural birth, which involved water. The first birth has to do with water, the second birth is a creative act of God whereby he begets a new nature in the man. It has nothing to do with water.

some will try to refuse it but there only refusing God

You are not God!

1 Peter 1:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

New birth is something every believer has. It is a present reality. Believers have been born again.

love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.


If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.

1 John :


3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.


9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: "

(Explanation: The new nature received from God by new birth, cannot sin.)


7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is begotten of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


" 4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? "

The believer is an overcomer.


18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

BTW: The Lord Jesus is the true God who gives eternal life.

John 1

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3
Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. 8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9



2 Corinthians 5 gives details:


"14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again. 16 Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more. 17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they have become new."

Eph 2
uses somewhat different language for the same thing:


2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[Atwood]

someone on here is trying to pass their satanic view

OK, TTP,
Do you confess that Jesus is God (YHWH) who became a flesh bodied man?

Do you confess that Jesus is forever YHWH and a flesh-bodied man?

Do you confess that His body (that body which was entombed) was raised from the dead having flesh & bone?

 

[Alligator]

Once more,
no passage is given to sustain the theory that an unbaptized believer is condemned.



No baptism is mentioned in the story. But yes, you water-baptism-idolaters have been refuted many times on this forum. You have been shown how many, many passages offer salvation and justification by faith/belief alone with no reference to any water. Yet you persist in clinging to the idolatry of salvation by works, despite the Bible telling you that it is by grace through faith, not of works.

Since there is but one way of salvation all through the Bible he is an example for us today. "Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come."

Even in the Law period we see the same salvation method as today, by way of picture: The bronze serpent is held up & it is look (in faith) & live.
The rock is smitten, as Christ was smitten, nailed to the cross. Water comes forth like living water of salvation.
The second time, Moses is told to speak to the rock (for whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord [call of faith] shall be saved). Moses ruins the example by smiting the rock the 2nd time -- Christ died once for all; no death again is needed; just speak to the rock.



Heb 9:16-17 does not mention baptism.

So now you abandon any argument from John 3, since it is under the old law. And do you abandon all the teachings of Jesus on earth because they are under the law? If you will cut off the thief because the law is in force until the crucifixion is ended, you must cut off all the Teachings of Jesus on earth. So you may not argue from His teachings any longer.



He did perform through his disciples water-baptism during his ministry. But yes, the Baptism of the Spirit did not go into effect until Acts 2, Pentecost.

Moreover, postulating different ways to be saved in different dispensations is unscriptural. All through the Bible salvation is by belief/faith, of which Abraham is the great example.

The big reason for rejecting the water-idolatry, is that scripture so many times offers salvation just for faith/believing.

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Atwood, YOUR plan (method) of salvation is " Trust in Jesus as your personal savior ", is not even found in the Bible, and when you're proven wrong, you merely dismiss the idea as "off topic". That is your pathetic way of trying to get around tough questions.

 

[dcontroversal]

Concerning the thief on the cross being put to death for MURDER and THIEVERY....NO MURDERER HATH ETERNAL life dwelling in HIM...so yes we can surmise that the thief was not saved when he went to the cross, had no immersion, no church affiliation, no good works and someone who believes in a watered down salvation will never accept the fact that BAPTISM has nothing to do with salvation, but rather is a PICTURE of what has ALREADY taken place inwardly.....!

 

[Atwood]

As things continue, there is continued failure to post a verse which indicates that an unbaptized believer is condemned.

Atwood, YOUR plan (method) of salvation is " Trust in Jesus as your personal savior ", is not even found in the Bible, and when you're proven wrong, you merely dismiss the idea as "off topic". That is your pathetic way of trying to get around tough questions.

Ad hominem is fallacious argument, Alligator.
"Trust in Christ as Savior" has never been proven wrong.
The above is not the topic of this thread. The topic is what happens to unbaptized believers.

What is pathetic is when someone writes off the only Savior there is and the only possibility of eternal life, and insists that He is no more than a chance giver, and goes on to make an idol, a savior out of water-baptism.

What is pathetic is a unbelieving post that denies salvation, without even quoting one verse -- just bad-mouthing & pontifications.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

What is your problem? You don't agree that saving faith is trusting? James rules out the idea that saving faith is believing that something is so. I already posted the Greek lexicon on pistis/pisteuo. Trust is the meaning of the word when salvation is at stake.

So you don't believe this passage:

"Commit thy way unto Jehovah;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light, And thy justice as the noonday.
Rest in YHWH . . . ."

Or do you have a problem with the object of faith, narrowed to the 2nd person of the Trinity in the NT, the Lord Jesus, who died for you sins?

Or do you disagree with the following:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.


Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood, YOUR plan (method) of salvation is " Trust in Jesus as your personal savior ", is not even found in the Bible, and when you're proven wrong, you merely dismiss the idea as "off topic". That is your pathetic way of trying to get around tough questions.

I have yet to see anything he says as scriptural. He could not prove OSAS in another thread and here he expects a scriptural answer to an uscriptural premise. Clearly all we are being given is Atwoodism.

 

[notuptome]

Atwood, YOUR plan (method) of salvation is " Trust in Jesus as your personal savior ", is not even found in the Bible, and when you're proven wrong, you merely dismiss the idea as "off topic". That is your pathetic way of trying to get around tough questions.

Actually it is Gods plan. Trust, believe or receive its pretty much the same. Its Jesus as personal Savior or you are lost as Jobs turkey.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Atwood]

While we rabbit path, and while we go blue in the face holding breath for someone to prove that unbaptized believers are condemned, let us breath in some oxygen & sing it:

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
This is God’s gracious command;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
So shall you dwell in the land.


Refrain
Trust in the Lord, O troubled soul,
Rest in the arms of His care;
Whatever your lot, it mattereth not,
For nothing can trouble you there;
Trust in the Lord, O troubled soul,
Nothing can trouble you there.


Trust in the Lord who ruleth all,
Seeeth all things as they are,
Be it a birdling in its nest,
Or yonder uttermost star.


Trust in the Lord and peaceful be,
Fret not thy spirit in vain,
What though the answer tarries long,
Still shalt thou praise Him again.


Trust in the Lord—His eye will guide
All thro’ your pathway ahead,
He hath redeemed and He will keep,
Trust Him and be not afraid.


"Thus saith YHWH: Cursed is the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from YHWH. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh, but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in YHWH, and whose trust YHWH is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots by the river, and shall not fear when heat cometh, but its leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit." (Jer 17)

Take note that the only Savior is YHWH, and that the Lord Jesus is YHWH.

He invites: Come to Me all you who labor & are heavy-laden . . . and I will give rest. Come to Him now, just as you are; enter into God's rest by faith in the Savior.

My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device or creed;
I trust the ever-living One,
His wounds for me shall plead;
I need no other argument;
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.

 

[notuptome]

I have yet to see anything he says as scriptural. He could not prove OSAS in another thread and here he expects a scriptural answer to an uscriptural premise. Clearly all we are being given is Atwoodism.

I'm sure no one ever said that about you either. Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Most it seems who are baptismal regenerationists do not.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Atwood]

More Ad hominem & rabbit path. Once saved . . . saved was absolutely proven. While no one can condemn the unbaptized believer, the unbeliever can hippity hop the rabbit path.

I have yet to see anything he says as scriptural. He could not prove OSAS in another thread and here he expects a scriptural answer to an uscriptural premise. Clearly all we are being given is Atwoodism.

The below is the Word of God (not Atwood) w/ only a tad of Bunyan:

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Luke 21:31-32
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you*, that he might sift you* as wheat: but I made supplication for you, that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren.

Then I saw in my dream that the INTERPRETER took CHRISTIAN by the hand, and led him to a place where a fire was burning against a wall, and one standing by it was always pouring much water on it to quench it; yet the fire burned higher and hotter.

Chr. Then CHRISTIAN asked, "What does this mean?"
Inter. The INTERPRETER answered, "This fire is the work of grace that is worked in the heart; he that pours water upon it to extinguish and put it out, is the devil: but in that you see the fire burn higher and hotter in spite of the water, you shall also see the reason of that." So he took him around to the backside of the wall, where he saw a man with a vessel of oil in his hand, which he also continually threw into the fire, but secretly.
Chr. Then CHRISTIAN asked, "What does this mean?"
Inter. The INTERPRETER answered, "This is Christ, who continually with the oil of his grace maintains the work already begun in the heart: by the means of which the souls of his people prove gracious still, in spite of what the devil can do.
"And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." 2 Corinthians 12:9
And the man you saw standing behind the wall to maintain the fire; this is to teach you, that it is hard for the tempted to see how this work of grace is maintained in the soul."
Luke 21:31-32
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you*, that he might sift you* as wheat: but I made supplication for you, that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren.


Rom 4:16

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Luke 21:31-32
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you*, that he might sift you* as wheat: but I made supplication for you, that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren.
Rom 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29



Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[Alligator]

Once more,
no passage is given to sustain the theory that an unbaptized believer is condemned.



No baptism is mentioned in the story. But yes, you water-baptism-idolaters have been refuted many times on this forum. You have been shown how many, many passages offer salvation and justification by faith/belief alone with no reference to any water. Yet you persist in clinging to the idolatry of salvation by works, despite the Bible telling you that it is by grace through faith, not of works.

Since there is but one way of salvation all through the Bible he is an example for us today. "Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.",'

Even in the Law period we see the same salvation method as today, by way of picture: The bronze serpent is held up & it is look (in faith) & live.
The rock is smitten, as Christ was smitten, nailed to the cross. Water comes forth like living water of salvation.
The second time, Moses is told to speak to the rock (for whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord [call of faith] shall be saved). Moses ruins the example by smiting the rock the 2nd time -- Christ died once for all; no death again is needed; just speak to the rock.



Heb 9:16-17 does not mention baptism.

So now you abandon any argument from John 3, since it is under the old law. And do you abandon all the teachings of Jesus on earth because they are under the law? If you will cut off the thief because the law is in force until the crucifixion is ended, you must cut off all the Teachings of Jesus on earth. So you may not argue from His teachings any longer.



He did perform through his disciples water-baptism during his ministry. But yes, the Baptism of the Spirit did not go into effect until Acts 2, Pentecost.

Moreover, postulating different ways to be saved in different dispensations is unscriptural. All through the Bible salvation is by belief/faith, of which Abraham is the great example.
Tt
The big reason for rejecting the water-idolatry, is that scripture so many times offers salvation just for faith/believing.
.
Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the worldll, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

What? No baptism is mentioned in the story?? Can you read? Seriously. The word baptism is used in the very first sentence. Besides, I was responding to someone else, not you. You're so used to using that ridiculous excuse when you can't answer questions you have apparently stopped even reading the posts.

Im not abandoning anything regarding John 3. Christ is teaching his disciples that to enter the soon to come kingdom, you must be born of water and the spirit. Quite simple.

Interesting you didn't t quote James 2:24 in all those verses you listed by faith. Oh and by the way, your subject is OFF TOPIC.

I am am tired of having to wade through pages and pages of your notes just so I can read someone else's post. Your never ending and giant letters posts are rude and inconsiderate, so I am going to block you.