What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?

[Atwood]

Well if one willfully teaches not baptize with water or thinks he should not it is a counterfeit faith

But that is not the question Apostol. This thread is not about whether one should water baptize, it is about what happens to the unbaptized believer. Suppose a man is shot on the battlefield and about to die, but there is no water around. Should a Christian not urge the dying man to trust the Lord Jesus as His Savior? Then if the man dies, do you think God will roast him in Hell for not being water baptized? Is there one verse like that?

 

[Flamingspirit]

True baptism is that of death or the crucifying of the flesh. Thus, there is but one baptism.

 

[Atwood]

honestly I am worried for one who has not the opportunity to obey the word of God because God makes the way for us to obey...we are not called by chance...

1 Samuel 15 American Standard Version (ASV)
15 And Samuel said unto Saul, Jehovah sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of Jehovah.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, I have marked that which Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up out of Egypt.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Saul summoned the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Saul came to the city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them; for ye showed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Saul smote the Amalekites, from Havilah as thou goest to Shur, that is before Egypt.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
[SUP]9[/SUP]But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but everything that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then came the word of Jehovah unto Samuel, saying,

[SUP]11 [/SUP]It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king; for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And Samuel was wroth; and he cried unto Jehovah all night.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning; and it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a monument, and turned, and passed on, and went down to Gilgal.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And Samuel came to Saul; and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of Jehovah: I have performed the commandment of Jehovah.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto Jehovah thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what Jehovah hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Samuel said, Though thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel? And Jehovah anointed thee king over Israel;

[SUP]18 [/SUP]and Jehovah sent thee on a journey, and said, Go, and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of Jehovah, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah?

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of Jehovah, and have gone the way which Jehovah sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the devoted things, to sacrifice unto Jehovah thy God in Gilgal.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Samuel said, Hath Jehovah as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim. Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned; for I have transgressed the commandment of Jehovah, and thy words, because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship Jehovah.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee; for thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, and Jehovah hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And as Samuel turned about to go away, Saul laid hold upon the skirt of his robe, and it rent.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then he said, I have sinned: yet honor me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship Jehovah thy God.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped Jehovah.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him cheerfully. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before Jehovah in Gilgal.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death; for Samuel mourned for Saul: and Jehovah repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

There is some hope for NewB, for he gets into scripture. Now NewB, there is nothing about water baptism in your passage -- nor any kind of baptism. But as an aside it should be observed that the hope Christian have for Saul is based on what Samuel told Saul the night before he would die next day: Tomorrow you will be with me! Thus I take it that Saul is a good example of the grace of God for a sinning Christian, who is carnal and dies in a carnal state, having just consulted a witch. Chastisement is a reality for the children of God. Saul had an awful death.'

But now that you mention it, Saul would be an example of a saved believer who never got baptized.

 

[Mrak]

You assume 2 things:

1.The theif wasn't baptized
2. That he went to heaven

Jesus said that day the thief would be with Him in paradise. Now, are you saying Jesus went to heaven that day ??? Cuz in my Bible in 1 Peter it says Jesus went to proclaim to those now in prison from the days of Noah, for 3 days. Jesus did not go to heaven for weeks after His resurrection. He went to where the disobedient went since the days of Noah

Bingo! Why don't others see what you brought out here?

 

[posthuman]

You assume 2 things:

1.The theif wasn't baptized
2. That he went to heaven

Jesus said that day the thief would be with Him in paradise. Now, are you saying Jesus went to heaven that day ??? Cuz in my Bible in 1 Peter it says Jesus went to proclaim to those now in prison from the days of Noah, for 3 days. Jesus did not go to heaven for weeks after His resurrection. He went to where the disobedient went since the days of Noah

Bingo! Why don't others see what you brought out here?

if the thief went to "where the disobedient went since the days of Noah" -- why did Jesus call that place "paradise" ?

if we reject Christ are we condemned to Eden??

 

[posthuman]

^ about that post being off-topic, Atwood,
not to detract from the thread, i hope, so as far as the topic:
i'm with what peacefulbeliever said -- there is only one baptism, and it is the baptism with which Christ baptizes us -- and Christ never baptized with water. all who believe on Him, He sanctifies.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[posthuman]

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

amen!

".. And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said,

‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
​

If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
(Acts 11:13-18)

 

[JesusIsAll]

".. And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said,

‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
​

If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
(Acts 11:13-18)

Yes, amen, and excellent verses!

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yes, amen, and excellent verses!

(Need to keep in mind your verses from Acts 11, posthuman, as they illustrate much. Thank you!)

 

[Atwood]

Great scripture was posted by IsAll; it is good background:

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now John 3 has no reference to baptism in it. Man's 1st birth is of water when he comes out of the womb (gush!). I remember when my son was born, & my wife's water suddenly broke! Man's 2nd birth is of the Spirit. Regeneration is being born of the Spirit, new creation, becoming a child of God. It happens at the same time as the Spirit baptism but is a distinct work of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Now here we do have a case of unbaptized believers, that is, not Spirit baptized, men saved before the Church existed and not yet brought into the Church, the Body of Christ, by Spirit baptism.

Consider men who were believers in YHWH without differentiating members of the Trinity, before Christ began his ministry, before John began baptizing. Those were men saved before water-baptism. Now who would say that if they had died before John, they would have roasted in the Lake of Fire? Not I.

Then there were men who believed & were saved, then were water-baptized, either by John or under Jesus' ministry. These are an example of men who believed & were saved before they were Spirit baptized.

It is notable that scripture does not say that such would have gone to the Lake of Fire (even those in Acts 19), had they died before they got Spirit baptized.

So Acts 19 gives us what I think are somewhat unusual examples of men who believed but were not Spirit baptized after Acts 2. It looks to me like in Acts (a transitional book) we see distinct groups being brought into the Church with a special audience with apostles, not that the apostles did the Spirit baptizing, but occasioned it. It looks to me like the Lord did this (instead of having all believers all over the world immediately Spirit baptized on the Day of Pentecost, to effect the visible unity of the Church on earth, Jews, Samaritans, John the Baptist followers, being brought in with apostolic oversight to unify the Church on earth.

They Text says, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." I think this means Spirit baptism also, and that when it is baptism in the name of Jesus (instead of the Trinity) it is Spirit baptism in every case, but water baptism when done in the name of the Trinity. If someone has better information, feel free to correct me on that one.

At any rate, in the case of Acts 19, men who were evidently unbaptized believers (not Spirit baptized) had a happy outcome: The got Spirit baptized, nothing about them going to Hell.

 

[Atwood]

Re: What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED MAN WHO TRUSTS CHRIST AS SAVIOR?

Does everyone agree that when scripture says,
"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved,"
or "That whosoever believes in Him should not perish,"

that saving belief is not mere factual belief, like someone is convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, Lord, or whatever; but it means to trust in Him?

I say this because contrary to the definition made in the thread that belief was trusting Christ as Savior, someone has persisted in treating belief as "believing that X is true." Thus the issue of an unbaptized person believing has been obfuscated.

 

[Jackson123]

Luke 23:43King James Version (KJV)[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I'll not share any answer, but that water baptism does not take away sin, only the blood of Jesus Christ, and baptism of the Holy Spirit is essential, to be born again, as our Lord clarified.

This is a prime topic where people will twist scripture into knots, giving a more explicit answer not one I want to get involved in, that is, some of the divisive, bad exegesis that shows up, like a bad penny, with the water baptism topic. Read all about baptism in the New Testament, and find your own conviction. Read what's already said of it on CC, for that matter, how thoroughly the dead horse has already been beaten, the people who will never agree never agreeing. At some point, we should emerge from the need to fight the same wars, over and over.

 

[posthuman]

Re: What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED MAN WHO TRUSTS CHRIST AS SAVIOR?

Does everyone agree that when scripture says,
"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved,"
or "That whosoever believes in Him should not perish,"

that saving belief is not mere factual belief, like someone is convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, Lord, or whatever; but it means to trust in Him?

if you don't act as though Jesus is Lord,
you either don't really 'believe' that He is, or you are a fool, yes?

i know i'm a fool.

 

[Atwood]

Re: What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED MAN WHO TRUSTS CHRIST AS SAVIOR?

if you don't act as though Jesus is Lord,
you either don't really 'believe' that He is, or you are a fool, yes?

So you don't agree with me that saving faith is trusting Christ as Savior, but you think saving faith is like the demons who believe that, believe certain facts? So those who believe that some creed is true are exercising saving faith, even if they don't trust Christ to save them?

 

[mailmandan]

Re: What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED MAN WHO TRUSTS CHRIST AS SAVIOR?

Does everyone agree that when scripture says,
"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved,"
or "That whosoever believes in Him should not perish,"

that saving belief is not mere factual belief, like someone is convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, Lord, or whatever; but it means to trust in Him?

I say this because contrary to the definition made in the thread that belief was trusting Christ as Savior, someone has persisted in treating belief as "believing that X is true." Thus the issue of an unbaptized person believing has been obfuscated.

Amen! The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. Big difference! Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith completely trusts in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[john832]

It is in the story about the resurrection that comes at the end of the 1000 Years. Try starting with the resurrection when Jesus returns and then the end of the 1000 years when the second one is talked about were God gives the many 100 years as mortal to lean what they did not learn the first time.

Mac.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mac4Yuma again.

 

[newbirth]

There are no "unbaptized believers" for all believers when they confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - they are baptized with holy Spirit.

where is that promise?...the promise is....

Acts 2:38-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Acts 8:12-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

 

[IAm3rd]

There are no "unbaptized believers" for all believers when they confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - they are baptized with holy Spirit.

What scripture do you base this off of ?