Which is more important: Correct doctrine or a godly attitude toward others?

[Chester]

Christian Chat (especially the BDF) is rife with heated arguments about one doctrinal point or another. Some posts are well thought out and presented respectfully. Far too many posts, however, are attacks on a previous poster's character and personality.

The later responses appear to me to present an ungodly attitude toward others. I believe these to be (giving them the benefit of the doubt) from immature Christians, whether their doctrine is correct or not.

So, my question is, "Is it more important to have a 'correct' doctrine and treat your brothers and sisters insultingly, disrespectfully, and ungodly, or, is is better to have a God honoring attitude that reflects the love of Jesus to others and not necessarily have the 'correct' doctrinal position.

A second related question is: "Is Christian maturity measured by 'correct' doctrine or a God honoring character?"

(We will assume a true belief and acceptance of God's Son, Jesus, as ones Lord and Savior on the part of the offending poster.)

Thank you for your comments.

Amazing the strife that gets going on a thread meant to tame the strife . . . but then I have often been as guilty as anyone . . .

Doctrine - is it important? Yes, for even being born again requires a certain amount of doctrine.

Character - is it important? Tremendously important - "by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another" - Character is way more important than doctrine.

A faithless unbeliever can give mental assent to a list of doctrines just as easily as a true Christian can.

On a scale of 1-100 of importance, I would put Christian character at 100 and correct doctrine at 10.

Let me ask this - when you are in trouble and need help, when you are depressed and need a friend? Who will you go to? Will you go to the person who has his doctrine all laid out in detail? Or will you go to the person who has character, love, and tenderness? (So who would you go to on CC if you needed help? - I am not asking for people to give names - but am making a point here!)

 

[Budman]

I blame the church. The leadership does not teach the importance of maturing in Christ. And I blame 'once saved always saved' for that.

Come back over to the "Not by works" thread and we can some more of the good times we used to have discussing that issue.

 

[kaylagrl]

Maybe a better way to say it is, "if you don't have MEANINGFUL doctrine you won't have a Godly attitude."


If doctrine is not taught with the goal of making you a different person you are indulging meaningless doctrine.

Well I half agree. Doctrines are the foundation on the church.For instance that Jesus was both God and man,that is doctrine. Doctrine is not really about making us nice people,or different,doctrines are the truths we base our faith upon.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Doctrine - is it important? Yes, for even being born again requires a certain amount of doctrine.

Character - is it important? Tremendously important - "by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another" - Character is way more important than doctrine.

The way to look at this is CHRISTIAN BALANCE. And the Lord Himself is the example with GRACE and TRUTH in perfect balance (John 1:17).

While we may not be able to always maintain perfect balance, that is what every Christian should strive for.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Christian Chat (especially the BDF) is rife with heated arguments about one doctrinal point or another. Some posts are well thought out and presented respectfully. Far too many posts, however, are attacks on a previous poster's character and personality.

The later responses appear to me to present an ungodly attitude toward others. I believe these to be (giving them the benefit of the doubt) from immature Christians, whether their doctrine is correct or not.

So, my question is, "Is it more important to have a 'correct' doctrine and treat your brothers and sisters insultingly, disrespectfully, and ungodly, or, is is better to have a God honoring attitude that reflects the love of Jesus to others and not necessarily have the 'correct' doctrinal position.

A second related question is: "Is Christian maturity measured by 'correct' doctrine or a God honoring character?"

(We will assume a true belief and acceptance of God's Son, Jesus, as ones Lord and Savior on the part of the offending poster.)

Thank you for your comments.

What did Jesus COMMAND?

Did He command us to have correct doctrine? or did He command us to Love One Another?

He that has or teaches a false doctrine is not necessarily hell bound. But a person who fails to Love One Another is hell bound. So then which is more important, correct doctrine or Loving One Another. By far, Loving One Another is way more important. Even Scriptures teaches Love covers a multitude of sins, even teaching false doctrines.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Deade]

I am told I speak of experience and heart knowledge to much lol

Yes Blain, I know what you mean. I shared this testimony about my baptism, but I don't advertise it much because it isn't always well received.

We started going to a little Pentecostal Church in the small town where we lived. They were told of our unhappy baptism, and immediately they arranged to baptize us again. They did, but I still didn’t get the gift new tongues. God had already called me to preach, and I did so in this little church. My wife and I felt they were a little fanciful and magical about their beliefs and we grew to doubt that baptism also. So, we went to the mud flats at the edge of the lake to baptize each other. I took authority in Jesus’ name and dunked my wife. Then I took the palm of my hand and covered my nose and eyes waiting for her. She said that somehow, she was about 5 feet away from me; so she started toward me. To her surprise, I went straight back into the water and came back up. She said: “How did you do that?” I said: “do what?” I told her she dunked me, she said she didn’t. Something had grabbed and did it for her; something invisible. We deduced it was an angel / cherub. I felt something pulling me down into the very deep, cold abyss of what felt like death. My eyes were closed, but I saw the surface of the water disappearing above me. It was very cold, and it felt like death. That was my vision of my baptism. We both came up speaking in tongues as the Lord promised.

What did Jesus COMMAND?

Did He command us to have correct doctrine? or did He command us to Love One Another?

He that has or teaches a false doctrine is not necessarily hell bound. But a person who fails to Love One Another is hell bound. So then which is more important, correct doctrine or Loving One Another. By far, Loving One Another is way more important. Even Scriptures teaches Love covers a multitude of sins, even teaching false doctrines.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Yes DDave, I think we are just coming out from under 2,000 years of Satan running Christianity the way he wants. We are unlocking scriptures that have previously been locked. As per the following:

Dan. 12:4: "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

With our computers and everything that has been written readily available the truth will prevail.

 

[joaniemarie]

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience"-1 Peter 3:15-16


You don't see much gentleness and respect in this or any forum. Most Christians are still immature. I blame the church. The leadership does not teach the importance of maturing in Christ. And I blame 'once saved always saved' for that.

Doctrine is important to the extent to which it leads you to that which counts, which is loving others as God loves (as opposed to how man conditionally loves others). The goal (loving as God loves) is always more important than the means used to get you there (doctrine).

I agree with pretty much all of what you say here Ralph., except the once saved always saved opinion.

Yes., many Christians ARE immature. It can happen to any of us. I was saved for many years before even beginning to allow the Holy Spirit to teach me how to walk in the new creation in Christ.

Physical age is not the measuring stick. Immaturity is seen by the way we interact with other brothers and sisters in Christ and other people in general. You will know they are Christians by their love for one another and other people. Not much "gentleness or respect" going on in these forums. LOTS of old babies.

When Elijah was mocking., he did so with those unbelievers., and even so, whose to say he was acting properly? His behavior is not our example., Jesus is our example. Just because another believer in the Bible "did" something does not make it ok for us to do it.

Just read 1 Cor.13 for the answer to this thread. No body who is walking in their flesh is following the Love chapter. It's totally EASY to argue about doctrine. Our flesh loves that. So much satisfaction for the flesh to put others down with our fleshly superiority., that is flesh all the way. I think we each have to daily make a choice to do this. The choice comes every day to us.

It's totally another thing to love others the way Jesus loves us with grace and truth. That goes totally against our flesh because it is a supernatural SPIRITUAL FRUIT that comes from walking in our new creation by the power of the Holy Spirit. Love is a fruit of the Spirit.

That takes a choice to put aside the old manner of living and reckon it to be dead and instead walk in newness of life in Christ.
Once we make that choice and get used to making that choice on a daily basis it becomes easier. But I agree., many Christians know nothing about walking in their new spirit man.

You and I may disagree on once saved always saved but we agree that it's the Holy Spirit directing our new spirit man in Christ that is how to live and have victory here against the world...flesh...and the devil. Knowing who we are IN Christ and walking in who we are in Christ bears fruit of the Spirit.

 

[joaniemarie]

Oh but let us guess.....You are Mature and not in the "MOST Christians" grouping...........like some other post....I am fairly confident that you do not know MOST CHRISTIANS and lack any real right or truth to make the statement you made about most Christians....


As far as the second bolded statement....You state clearly that your Jesus is not the Jesus of the bible

Mine states the following...

I will never leave thee or forsake thee
I will complete the good work of faith I began in you
I give unto you eternal life and NO MAN can pluck you our of my hand
If we believe NOT (after belief) he abides faithful and cannot deny himself

My bible teaches eternal security....not some easily lost salvation based upon what I do or do not do.....tragic how you devalue JESUS, his work and power in favor of a false religious farce that throws Jesus under the bus while devaluing the work, power and promises of Christ.....

More religion from a religionist!

Here is an example about differing doctrine. I believe as you do about the security of the believer but I can agree with you and Ralph on these subjects without getting angry at either one of you. The security of the believer is something we learn as we go. Some know it some don't. Just like some know how to walk in love and some don't have a handle on it yet.

If a person gets angry and wants to lash out that is indicative of the flesh every time. That is why the fruit of the Spirit can only be grown by walking in our spirit and not in our flesh. There is a whole list of things we each need to grow up about and some are further along than others in each one.

 

[joaniemarie]

If you dont have correct doctrine you wont have a Godly attitude,period. Doctrine is extremely important,lest we be led astray

The Holy Spirit is who we need to be lead by not doctrine. We each need the ministry of the Holy Spirit (active) in our daily life and He shows us about doctrine. Doctrine isn't more important than agape love and the fruits of the Spirit. If we are not exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit then our doctrine no matter how good it is is sounding brass and tinkling cymbols.

It's the love of God that constrains us and motivates us not doctrine. Doctrine is learned as a by product of God's love and grace activated in our lives by the Holy Spirit working in and through us. It's easy to study doctrine and argue about it but it's another thing to commit to the behavior of these verses below. Read Read 1 Cor.13 The greatest of these is LOVE.


13 If I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such [SUP][a][/SUP]as is inspired by God’s love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]And if I have prophetic powers ([SUP][b][/SUP]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or [SUP][c][/SUP]in order that I may glory, but have not love (God’s love in me), I gain nothing.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
[SUP]
8 [/SUP]Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy ([SUP][d][/SUP]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
[SUP]
10 [/SUP]But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as [SUP][e][/SUP]in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [SUP][f][/SUP]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [SUP][g][/SUP]fully and clearly known and understood [[SUP][h][/SUP]by God].
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]And so faith, hope, love abide [faith—conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope—joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love—true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[joaniemarie]

People in the church are deceived into thinking their service shows they 'know' Christ. But it is one's obedience that shows that you are born again and know Christ.


"22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"-Matthew 7:22-23


‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’-Matthew 9:13


Obedience is better than sacrifice.

A Christian cannot obey unless it's done by their spirit man in the power of the Holy Spirit (that is His ministry to Christians). Many Christians do all the right things by going to church., giving money to the poor., speaking in tongues., giving their bodies to be burned.... having a willingness in their flesh to be obedient but it counts for zilch done in and by the flesh. The flesh is totally apposed to the Spirit and vs/vs. It's one or the other when it comes to walking in the Spirit or the flesh. We can't do both.

Man has a high "moral code" as he follows the 10 Commandments. Man pats himself on the back and thinks himself to be good by how well he performs. Man sees that the law is good and it reaps living a clean life that we can be "proud" of (shocking as that is we can be prideful even when being obedient) Our flesh is so rotten.

But the obedience is not what counts. It's walking IN THE SPIRIT in the new creation. Knowing we are nothing unless Jesus is living His life in and through us. It's not our obedience it's HIS. It's not US it's Christ IN US daily revealed to us by the HolySpirit. Gal.2:16-21

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God).
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]But if, in our desire and endeavor to be justified in Christ [to be declared righteous and put in right standing with God wholly and solely through Christ], we have shown ourselves sinners also and convicted of sin, does that make Christ a minister (a party and contributor) to our sin? Banish the thought! [Of course not!]
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.
[SUP]
19 [/SUP]For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ’s death for me] myself died to the Law and all the Law’s demands upon me, so that I may [henceforth] live to and for God.
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
[SUP]
21 [/SUP][Therefore, I do not treat God’s gracious gift as something of minor importance and defeat its very purpose]; I do not set aside and invalidate and frustrate and nullify the grace (unmerited favor) of God. For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through [observing the ritual of] the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain. [His death was then wholly superfluous.]

 

[Tina2018]

Christian Chat (especially the BDF) is rife with heated arguments about one doctrinal point or another. Some posts are well thought out and presented respectfully. Far too many posts, however, are attacks on a previous poster's character and personality.

The later responses appear to me to present an ungodly attitude toward others. I believe these to be (giving them the benefit of the doubt) from immature Christians, whether their doctrine is correct or not.

So, my question is, "Is it more important to have a 'correct' doctrine and treat your brothers and sisters insultingly, disrespectfully, and ungodly, or, is is better to have a God honoring attitude that reflects the love of Jesus to others and not necessarily have the 'correct' doctrinal position.

A second related question is: "Is Christian maturity measured by 'correct' doctrine or a God honoring character?"

(We will assume a true belief and acceptance of God's Son, Jesus, as ones Lord and Savior on the part of the offending poster.)

Thank you for your comments.

Well to answer the opening question
"Which is more important: Correct doctrine or a godly attitude toward others?"
My answer would be correct doctrine because how would one know what a Godly attitude is unless they know the bible.

 

[Didymous]

I heard a young man once who explained debates or discussions in a profound way. He said that if you start calling names, you've lost. But more important is what younger believers, or unbelievers see, or read about us. Do they see us loving one another as different parts of ONE body, or maybe more like a bunch of children arguing on a playground. I truly hope all of us who read this will honestly consider what we look like when we're having discussions about things on which we disagree.

 

[joaniemarie]

In the parable of the talents, is it more important that you have the talent (the knowledge of the kingdom) that the Master gave you when he returns, or more important that you actually did something with it?


Doing something with your talent(s) of knowledge and putting it to work in your life is what counts, not that you simply possess the talent. The one who did nothing with his talent of doctrinal knowledge of the kingdom and only held on to it went to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

We should not be deceived into thinking that just knowing accurate doctrine, or even sharing it by putting it on deposit with others, means all is good with us and God. Not even remotely true. The person who has the word of God-his talent(s)-active and working in his life is the one who is good with the Master and prepared for his return. The one who is taking false comfort in merely possessing it is in for a surprise.

The talent is faith. We have each been given a measure of faith. What we do with that measure is what counts. Many of us never live by faith but we live by our wits. I can attest to this as I've lived by my wits most of my life. I was saved but I was not walking by faith I walked by sight. I had no idea about the Holy Spirit's ministry in my life.

Our family went to church 3 Xs a week., us parents were Sunday school teachers., AWANA leaders., raised our kids in church and even home schooled for a time. Our family took great pride in our humble living (LOL) we were part of the great humble proud. That is what living in the flesh as a Christian will do for you.

The fruit of the Spirit cannot be accomplished by the flesh. And when a Christian starts walking in the new man who was born again in Christ., Gal.2:20 the Holy Spirit comes and ministers and from our inner most being flows rivers of living water. No human pride involved but tons of JOY and PEACE in the Holy Spirit.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][a][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][b][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][c][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.

 

[followjesus]

Christian Chat (especially the BDF) is rife with heated arguments about one doctrinal point or another. Some posts are well thought out and presented respectfully. Far too many posts, however, are attacks on a previous poster's character and personality.

The later responses appear to me to present an ungodly attitude toward others. I believe these to be (giving them the benefit of the doubt) from immature Christians, whether their doctrine is correct or not.

So, my question is, "Is it more important to have a 'correct' doctrine and treat your brothers and sisters insultingly, disrespectfully, and ungodly, or, is is better to have a God honoring attitude that reflects the love of Jesus to others and not necessarily have the 'correct' doctrinal position.

A second related question is: "Is Christian maturity measured by 'correct' doctrine or a God honoring character?"

(We will assume a true belief and acceptance of God's Son, Jesus, as ones Lord and Savior on the part of the offending poster.)

Thank you for your comments.

Do you suppose that you may Be asking " whats More important...the chicken or the egg? "

what I Mean is this, correct doctrine, and treating others in a christian way, are One in the same thing.

Love One another for this fulfils the Law, and the prophets"...Love God above all, and Love one another, for all the Law and Prophets Hang opn these two comandments. ..... " Love thy Neighbor, fulfills the Law, Because Love does Nothing wrong to them.


I think at Least for My perception, there are Many different personalities Here, most all I am pretty sure Love Jesus and in thier Life probably are seeking to Know Him More. " Doctrine" is simply what we Believe. its How are Minds form the Law in Our Mind, doctrine comes from Gods Word, which then produces spiritual fruit in the persons Life, the fruit produced is a result of proper doctrine they are not really seperable Like a tree and its roots.


just Logically, anyone who Learns Jesus teachings, and Obeys them.....would treat everyone in a godly way. Jesus teaches " forgive when others do you wrong" " dont take revenge when someone offends or insults you" " Give to those who Need around you, give and do Not demand repayment...ect things like that. and the commandments, also are needed for Proper Love.

Thats why Jesus teachings are so Important, He is teaching us How to treat each other right. its One thing if i obey the commandment, and dont Kill anyone.... yet I Hate another but refrain from doing anything to Him I obey the commandment yet I have been condemned according to Jesus who teaches " If you dont hold grudges ( also in the law) ...if you dont Let it remain in your Heart, if you reconcile quickly........thats the way to really Obey the comandment " thou shalt Not kill"

No One of course should ever Kill, nor Break that commandment, but if we learn to treat People Jesus way, we will never Be in a position to harm anyone so telling us then, " dont Kill another" is sort of not necassary Because we have become through Christ and His doctrine, the Kind of People who dont do any Harm to each other, Killing is Not Part of Our spirit anymore Because through the gospel, we Become those who Lay thierselves down for others. those who reach out to the needs of others, who actually do the deeds of Love.....and doesnt Label them " works"


false doctrine is the issue, with teaching the wrong doctrine. wrong Belief Leads astray, thats what happened to cause the problem. and were warned many times over in the nt, do not bind yourself to false doctrine, over and over Peter , paul, John, Jesus of course all warn, stick to the One Gospel do not part from it....so if your in a Bible discussion forum, people believe what they Believe and will always debate. i think theres really something to consider about " Be not easily offended" thats a part of doctrine, for us to be sure were not looking for a reason that someone insulted us, ..or did they just disagree with us?

i been here 2 Years, at times i just read and observe and a big issue that causes so Much arguing is Mis perception of what someone said, or " how they said it" we have to remember were reading text, we Might imagine someone shouting and screaming when they are typing...but they Might Be perfectly calm and respectful while they are actually typing it. theres No umm " tone" that comes with text often. sometimes differing sense of Humor causes issues..lol sometimes some of us are just grumpy that day. you Know ?

I think if we could Imagine the church isnt the few at our home church on sundays. but truly the church is made up of a world of Broken and lost People, People bound in addiction, bound in self righteousness, Bound in Judgement of others, Bound in all sorts or things. People in africa suffering terror, People in syria, being bombarded and gassed, People all over the world. al the imperfect People, that is the church. as well as those of us who used to be really Broken Like that and Let Jesus Begin to Heal and teach us and Lead and Bless and Guide us...... its really Not as it seems alot of times Perception, if we could see from any other view, But just our own..Our view May Be broader and More informed and create an enlightened perception illuminated By His Word.


sorry man im a rambler.... no offense in any way whatsoever, great op and God bless you.

 

[followjesus]

The talent is faith. We have each been given a measure of faith. What we do with that measure is what counts. Many of us never live by faith but we live by our wits. I can attest to this as I've lived by my wits most of my life. I was saved but I was not walking by faith I walked by sight. I had no idea about the Holy Spirit's ministry in my life.

Our family went to church 3 Xs a week., us parents were Sunday school teachers., AWANA leaders., raised our kids in church and even home schooled for a time. Our family took great pride in our humble living (LOL) we were part of the great humble proud. That is what living in the flesh as a Christian will do for you.

The fruit of the Spirit cannot be accomplished by the flesh. And when a Christian starts walking in the new man who was born again in Christ., Gal.2:20 the Holy Spirit comes and ministers and from our inner most being flows rivers of living water. No human pride involved but tons of JOY and PEACE in the Holy Spirit.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][a][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][b][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][c][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.

what does it Mean to Be taught, or led By the spirit? and are you saying that when you were living the way the bible says, you didnt get it? i dont really understand but also lol i dont really disagree with you, i just dont understand really what you are saying.


Paul often uses, and many modern preachers, they use phrases Like " walk By faith and Not sight" or " be Led of the spirit" but its Never really explained or understood what the phrases Mean. Like i agree " walk By Faith, Not sight" totally true and biblical truth there....But doesnt it sort of Just Lead to the question " well, what is Faith? How do I walk By Faith and Not sight" what does " cant Be accomplished By the flesh Mean? another cool phrase Paul uses in His Letters but where did such Language come from ???? the flesh and the spirit? How the flesh is of No profit , But the spirit is who to follow? does Paul just say that or is it something from the Gospel?


john 3 " 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 6:62-3 " What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


what exactly is the spirit? where does it come from? How do we Know to Hear it? what will the Holy spirit say? john 14:15-26. its not untrue to say " were saved By Grace" or things Likethat, but theres No understanding really until you put it together with all thats around it. you see when a person confesses "Jesus is Lord" that Has to Mean that. so then what does a person do, when thier Lord says " treat other People this way.....serve others, Make yourself Least amoing them. do good to them, fogrgive them Like i forgave you.....all those things He teaches, are ultra important to the rebirth in the spirit. infact its the Means of the spirit Getting into us through The Word of God sent in Jesus.


when paul is speaking about Obeying the spirit, it isnt a mysterious phrase, it has real tangible Meaning that has Been priorly established By the Lord Jesus in the Gospel. Paul is difficult if not impossible to grasp without the gospel of Luke and John. with those two gospels, everything Paul writes, makes perfect sense all of His seemingly strange Language " the spirit and the flesh" " crucify the flesh" " put to death the Misdeeds of your Body" those who are Led of the spirit are the sons of God......you Know what i mean?

Paul says " those who are Led by the spirit are the Sons of God.....Jesus said to His disciples " whoever Keeps My Word has Passed from death to Life, if anyone really Keeps My word, He will Know the truth and be set free.....My words are spirit, they are Life.......I have given them thy word of truth.....


the Language the apostles use in the epistles letters, is all coming from the Gospel. paul talking of the spirit has understanding in the Gospel, it sort of Just all explains itself when none is excluded. so that we arent left thinking " hmm whats the holy spirit?" or " How do i walk by faith and Not sight" or " what does the flesh do? does Paul ever say? yup He does He tells us the deeds of the flesh that will disqualify the inheritance ephesians ans galatians 5.


as Much as " the flesh" teaching there you are working at..... if we live after the flesh Now, we arent following the spirit. thats determined By what we do. who we follow and what we do determines everything.


romans 6 ( read this Just as it is with no grace lens"


What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. ( John8:31-35)

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; << sinner..... even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. << the new mans instruction
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


there is No way to the father, But through Me....said Jesus.

 

[joaniemarie]

what does it Mean to Be taught, or led By the spirit? and are you saying that when you were living the way the bible says, you didnt get it? i dont really understand but also lol i dont really disagree with you, i just dont understand really what you are saying.


Paul often uses, and many modern preachers, they use phrases Like " walk By faith and Not sight" or " be Led of the spirit" but its Never really explained or understood what the phrases Mean. Like i agree " walk By Faith, Not sight" totally true and biblical truth there....But doesnt it sort of Just Lead to the question " well, what is Faith? How do I walk By Faith and Not sight" what does " cant Be accomplished By the flesh Mean? another cool phrase Paul uses in His Letters but where did such Language come from ???? the flesh and the spirit? How the flesh is of No profit , But the spirit is who to follow? does Paul just say that or is it something from the Gospel?


john 3 " 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 6:62-3 " What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


what exactly is the spirit? where does it come from? How do we Know to Hear it? what will the Holy spirit say? john 14:15-26. its not untrue to say " were saved By Grace" or things Likethat, but theres No understanding really until you put it together with all thats around it. you see when a person confesses "Jesus is Lord" that Has to Mean that. so then what does a person do, when thier Lord says " treat other People this way.....serve others, Make yourself Least amoing them. do good to them, fogrgive them Like i forgave you.....all those things He teaches, are ultra important to the rebirth in the spirit. infact its the Means of the spirit Getting into us through The Word of God sent in Jesus.


when paul is speaking about Obeying the spirit, it isnt a mysterious phrase, it has real tangible Meaning that has Been priorly established By the Lord Jesus in the Gospel. Paul is difficult if not impossible to grasp without the gospel of Luke and John. with those two gospels, everything Paul writes, makes perfect sense all of His seemingly strange Language " the spirit and the flesh" " crucify the flesh" " put to death the Misdeeds of your Body" those who are Led of the spirit are the sons of God......you Know what i mean?

Paul says " those who are Led by the spirit are the Sons of God.....Jesus said to His disciples " whoever Keeps My Word has Passed from death to Life, if anyone really Keeps My word, He will Know the truth and be set free.....My words are spirit, they are Life.......I have given them thy word of truth.....


the Language the apostles use in the epistles letters, is all coming from the Gospel. paul talking of the spirit has understanding in the Gospel, it sort of Just all explains itself when none is excluded. so that we arent left thinking " hmm whats the holy spirit?" or " How do i walk by faith and Not sight" or " what does the flesh do? does Paul ever say? yup He does He tells us the deeds of the flesh that will disqualify the inheritance ephesians ans galatians 5.


as Much as " the flesh" teaching there you are working at..... if we live after the flesh Now, we arent following the spirit. thats determined By what we do. who we follow and what we do determines everything.


romans 6 ( read this Just as it is with no grace lens"


What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. ( John8:31-35)

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; << sinner..... even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. << the new mans instruction
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


there is No way to the father, But through Me....said Jesus.

There is a ton of good stuff you said here FollowJesus that needs to be discussed in order to understand the next thing and the next and the next. Thank God we have the Holy Spirit to lead us through it all.


This I believe is something we each as believers come to the truth of. We cannot do this ourselves in our own limited understanding. We NEED the Holy Spirit to lead us through this each day and He promises to do just that. It's His ministry to each one of us believers.


He uses the Bible God's perfectly recorded and preserved words to us to help us stay on track but also and just as important is for us also to allow the Holy Spirit to minister its many truths hidden inside those pages. I see it done in a number of ways.


Hearing the Bible preached and taught daily as a NEED for survival was the turning point for me. Without the preaching and teaching of the Word of God by an anointed preacher and teacher I would have been at major loss and not be here today whole and well.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing and needing to hear. I think the reasons we want to hear has many forms. I used to want to know what the Bible said so I could prove others wrong or right. For years this was the case. Anyone who saw the Bible differently than our group we basically put them aside as unlearned and or unimportant and even unworthy. We couldn't wait for a JW to come to our house. This is not a Christian who is lead by the Holy Spirit with a heart flowing in the fruit of the Spirit.


I see that the Holy Spirit points us to how Jesus loved others and He does that by loving us in our weakness. It's about unmerited unearned love and favor that brought us to being saved in the first place. By grace through faith in Jesus worthiness and not ours.

The Holy Spirit always points us to our right standing in Christ. John 16:8-12

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me];

10 About righteousess (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) because I go to My father, and you see Me no longer.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.



Verses like "look no man after the flesh" 2 Cor.5:115-18 takes on newer meaning than before because we see how Jesus looks at us not after our flesh but sees us in our righteous standing in Him., without blemish or spot declared righteous. Our born again spirit. Our new creation in Christ. And we daily learn how to look at ourselves AND others that way too. That is a work of the Spirit ministering to our spirit.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He died for all, so that all those who live might live no longer to and for themselves, but to and for Him Who died and was raised again for their sake.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a [purely] human point of view [in terms of natural standards of value]. [No] even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now [we have such knowledge of Him that] we know Him no longer [in terms of the flesh].
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].

 

[Ariel82]

Christian Chat (especially the BDF) is rife with heated arguments about one doctrinal point or another. Some posts are well thought out and presented respectfully. Far too many posts, however, are attacks on a previous poster's character and personality.

The later responses appear to me to present an ungodly attitude toward others. I believe these to be (giving them the benefit of the doubt) from immature Christians, whether their doctrine is correct or not.

So, my question is, "Is it more important to have a 'correct' doctrine and treat your brothers and sisters insultingly, disrespectfully, and ungodly, or, is is better to have a God honoring attitude that reflects the love of Jesus to others and not necessarily have the 'correct' doctrinal position.

A second related question is: "Is Christian maturity measured by 'correct' doctrine or a God honoring character?"

(We will assume a true belief and acceptance of God's Son, Jesus, as ones Lord and Savior on the part of the offending poster.)

Thank you for your comments.

A mature Christian has both correct doctrine and agape love.


Truth without love is just clanging cymbals.

Can you have true agape love without truth?

We may not have perfect doctrine, but we should be able to recognize heavenly wisdom versus demonic wisdom by study God's words in James 3.

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

 

[MattforJesus]

They are both important to have correct doctrine,and a godly attitude towards people,but the godly attitude towards people is more important,for without love correct doctrine is not going to help them to be saved,and without love they would not have the correct doctrine anyway,for they would have the incorrect doctrine concerning that,and would not be led of the Spirit.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love is greater than faith,and hope.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith,so that he could remove mountains,but if he did not have charity,then he is nothing.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity does not act unkind towards people,and does not belittle them,is not arrogant towards other people,and does not behave unseemly,and it not easily provoked,but acts godly towards people.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love works no ill towards their neighbor,but acts godly towards people as Christ acted towards people,and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love is the greatest asset we can have,and without love we cannot have salvation,and this means love all people,and faith works by love,and love is greater than faith,so if a person does not have love then faith does not matter to save them.

Jesus said love your enemies,feed and clothe your enemies,pray for them,and bless them,for we have to love every single person that dwells upon this here earth that we dwell upon.

Put it this way.If a person that has not confessed Christ has more love towards people then a person that confesses Christ,the person of the world has a better chance of salvation than the person professing Christianity.

Jesus said our righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees.

I know some people will say works does not matter in our salvation,and it is faith alone.

But when it comes to love that is one thing we cannot lack for if we do there is no way we can have salvation,and its called charity,love in action,which John said do not love in word only but love in deed and in truth,and James pointed out a trait of love towards people,and the lack of it,that faith with works of love is dead.

That is why we have to have works because they are works of love and to lack those works neglecting people to love them,then our faith cannot save us,which Paul said they are nothing,and have erred from the faith.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Love is greater than faith,and hope,and Paul said he could understand all mysteries,and have all knowledge,but if he did not have charity,which is love in action,then he is nothing.

But some people say that sin does not affect their relationship with God,so that means they can belittle people,be mean to them,and hate some people,and they are still right with God,but that is not the truth,for that is not love.

A godly attitude towards people is better than correct doctrine,and Paul pointed this out by saying he could have all knowledge but without love he is nothing.

But we also need correct doctrine,but lacking love towards people,and holding unto that behavior,a person would not have the correct doctrine anyway when it concerns salvation,for they would not be led of the Spirit.

 

[followjesus]

There is a ton of good stuff you said here FollowJesus that needs to be discussed in order to understand the next thing and the next and the next. Thank God we have the Holy Spirit to lead us through it all.


This I believe is something we each as believers come to the truth of. We cannot do this ourselves in our own limited understanding. We NEED the Holy Spirit to lead us through this each day and He promises to do just that. It's His ministry to each one of us believers.


He uses the Bible God's perfectly recorded and preserved words to us to help us stay on track but also and just as important is for us also to allow the Holy Spirit to minister its many truths hidden inside those pages. I see it done in a number of ways.


Hearing the Bible preached and taught daily as a NEED for survival was the turning point for me. Without the preaching and teaching of the Word of God by an anointed preacher and teacher I would have been at major loss and not be here today whole and well.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing and needing to hear. I think the reasons we want to hear has many forms. I used to want to know what the Bible said so I could prove others wrong or right. For years this was the case. Anyone who saw the Bible differently than our group we basically put them aside as unlearned and or unimportant and even unworthy. We couldn't wait for a JW to come to our house. This is not a Christian who is lead by the Holy Spirit with a heart flowing in the fruit of the Spirit.


I see that the Holy Spirit points us to how Jesus loved others and He does that by loving us in our weakness. It's about unmerited unearned love and favor that brought us to being saved in the first place. By grace through faith in Jesus worthiness and not ours.

The Holy Spirit always points us to our right standing in Christ. John 16:8-12

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me];

10 About righteousess (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) because I go to My father, and you see Me no longer.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.



Verses like "look no man after the flesh" 2 Cor.5:115-18 takes on newer meaning than before because we see how Jesus looks at us not after our flesh but sees us in our righteous standing in Him., without blemish or spot declared righteous. Our born again spirit. Our new creation in Christ. And we daily learn how to look at ourselves AND others that way too. That is a work of the Spirit ministering to our spirit.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And He died for all, so that all those who live might live no longer to and for themselves, but to and for Him Who died and was raised again for their sake.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]Consequently, from now on we estimate and regard no one from a [purely] human point of view [in terms of natural standards of value]. [No] even though we once did estimate Christ from a human viewpoint and as a man, yet now [we have such knowledge of Him that] we know Him no longer [in terms of the flesh].
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].

amen also really good stuff in there also.

all I really Know for certain, all i really am ever trying to get through to anyone who will Listen, though i get a bit scrambled in My words and sometimes ramble, its Just a Neurological thing. but everything i ever really Know to Be the truth, is That Jesus is the Messiah, The Son of God by Birth, Literally the Son of the Holy ghost, that came to Her, Because God gave Her the Word through Gabriel. the Word of God is the Whole Gospel. its all of the fulfillments of Prophecy we see in Jesus Life Death resurrection and then ascention early in acts when He sends the Holy Ghost. acts chapter 2-3.


all of that is the Gospel. I Look at it this Way. already Before Jesus came to Earth all Men stood condemned Before God, and the World Needed a Savior from Our sinfulness, the sin in us, that Paul talks of in romans 7s Latter Half. the " Other Law at work in us" we are all condemned, its why Humans understand a person who is Born into the world, One day will die. we Live under that sentance always. What Jesus Was SAYING was " Believe in Me, God Sent Me I am the One He promised to send to save you, Hear My Word, Keep it in your Heart, in you, let it shape your conscience Because you Believe in Me" <<< ( How we follow the spirit) ...and I will give you eternal Life, though you die, you will live...


we Let Jesus change Our Minds, Our Hearts. Our Minds and understanding, through His teachings. and we of course Have the Heart for Him, Because He suffered so Greatly on Our behalf, of His own free Will...even forgiving those who Nailed Him to the cross and Mocked Him in His suffering. My only message really is that His teachings, they are Christianity, they are the Doctrine of every Believer. and they are perfectly Balanced Both Grace, and also Truth. The truth of Gods Word, His message to Mankind, was sent with His Son.....


john 18:37 " Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

john 14 : If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."


around ad 90 after Pauls death .... 2 john 1:9 " Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

we have Lost so Much of the early doctrine, things Like the didache were the churches doctrine. But it sounds Nothing Like todays doctrine, it was Based on Jesus teachings. Most in fact all credible scholars date the didache to the 1st century or very shortly after. well Before Rome converted to Christianity under constantine and things grew dark.

i think every christian should read the didache and compare it to modern christian doctrine. somehow we Have Made Grace, Mean what it really doesnt Mean, which is the Word is Not whats important.....when it is Life. Christianity Has to Go through Jesus and the Gospel He preached. it really is nothing Like the Law, there is No condemnation in Jesus doctrine.....But to reject His doctrine. ( John 12: 49-50...because Deuteronomy 18:15-18. and acts 3 see also 1 timothy 6:3-5.

its all about Mercy, thats what Jesus teaches, Being Merciful to others, because He was so Very Merciful to us. check out Isaiah 53-58. and then consider Jesus teachings and His death and resurrection. Thanks for the good points and discussion God Bless you..Press on.

 

[EarnestQ]

As I reflect on it, I think the reason for my starting this thread was because in the BDF I saw a lot of self-presumed "spiritual authority" without any sign of what I would call spiritual maturity.

Anyone (including long term intelligent believers) can presume to have "perfect" doctrine. They can then justify their abusive attitude toward others by saying that even Jesus insulted the Pharisees and drove the money changers from the temple. (But Jesus didn't use the whip on the money changers. He used it on the animals.)

But Jesus Himself said that the greatest commandment was to love God, and the second was to love others.

I believe that if one truly loves God, he will love what God loves and therefore will naturally love others the way God does. But we're so dull that Jesus had to spell out the result of loving God, otherwise we would argue about it and never do it.

The BDF proves that far too many Christians presume to be so spiritually mature that they self designate themselves to teach others the error of their ways with all the arrogance of the Pharisees.

This is not spiritual maturity. Spiritual maturity is to be like Jesus. Jesus rarely argued doctrine with anyone. Instead, He demonstrated God's love for those around Him.

I am convinced that, once one is truly saved, it is more important to reflect Jesus' love to others than argue doctrine. This is not to say that there is not to be a fundamental passion for the truth of things. That is the second characteristic I consider to be most important for a growing Christian.

It is the observation of myself and others who have posted on the subject, that the hallmark of a spiritually mature Christian - demonstrating the love of God toward others, - is too often neglected by self righteous abusive posters.

I regret this and wish there were some way they (we all) could be encouraged to love God and others more than to be abusive to those who disagree with their doctrine.

But this is a characteristic of us fallen humans and I was one of the ignorant abusive people just not too long, and still am in some ways.

Lord have mercy on us all, please.