Which is more important: Correct doctrine or a godly attitude toward others?
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A
I often reflect upon the difference between godly wisdom and demonic earthly wisdom as described in James 3.
If it causes strife and bitterness that leads to ungodly action like reading apart a sibling....then something is wrong.
Spiritually mature people don't have to win debates...,they know the Holy spirit speaks and can lead others to the wisdom that they learnt.
I remember when I first started studying the Bible, I thought I knew a lot and most of the answers.
Now I realise how much I still don't know but that God reveals enough for me to live my life for His glory and that is enough
If it causes strife and bitterness that leads to ungodly action like reading apart a sibling....then something is wrong.
Spiritually mature people don't have to win debates...,they know the Holy spirit speaks and can lead others to the wisdom that they learnt.
I remember when I first started studying the Bible, I thought I knew a lot and most of the answers.
Now I realise how much I still don't know but that God reveals enough for me to live my life for His glory and that is enough
A
Correct doctrine = godly attitude towards others.
If you don't have brotherly kindness and agape love then you fall short and lie if you think yourself a mature Christian.
1 John 4:20 ►
New International Version
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
If you don't have brotherly kindness and agape love then you fall short and lie if you think yourself a mature Christian.
1 John 4:20 ►
New International Version
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
I'm not sure the two can be separated? Jesus used doctrine (scriptures) to define a correct Godly attitude. The Pharisees misconstrued scriptures to suit themselves, Jesus redefined it to reflect its true meaning and purpose.
What if a person post something like; "The 10 commandments don't matter, we can throw them out because we're saved by faith". I don't think a Godly attitude to that comment is
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... While I agree that its important to be nice by responding with a good attitude, there's nothing Godly about endorsing incorrect doctrine and going along with a blatant falsehood.
What if a person post something like; "The 10 commandments don't matter, we can throw them out because we're saved by faith". I don't think a Godly attitude to that comment is
R
I'm glad you brought this verse up.
I think what James is saying is you show how wise and understanding you are by how you act.
"Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. "-James 3:13
This teaching is from Deuteronomy 4:6...
"Observe them carefully (the decrees and laws the Lord my God commanded me-vs.5), for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”
It's interesting to see people here in cc who seem to be wise and understanding but who show by their behavior how unwise they are and how little understanding they actually have.
The connection between behavior and what a person's knows probably doesn't compute for a lot of Christians. But it will one day. God is not taking us to heights of doctrinal excellence. He is taking us to heights of behavioral excellence. We tend to want to think that correct doctrine shows how close to God we are. No. How you act shows how close to God you are.
I think what James is saying is you show how wise and understanding you are by how you act.
"Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. "-James 3:13
This teaching is from Deuteronomy 4:6...
"Observe them carefully (the decrees and laws the Lord my God commanded me-vs.5), for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”
It's interesting to see people here in cc who seem to be wise and understanding but who show by their behavior how unwise they are and how little understanding they actually have.
The connection between behavior and what a person's knows probably doesn't compute for a lot of Christians. But it will one day. God is not taking us to heights of doctrinal excellence. He is taking us to heights of behavioral excellence. We tend to want to think that correct doctrine shows how close to God we are. No. How you act shows how close to God you are.
Matthew 7:22-23 refers to a faith in works that will be rejected.
Also, along with a clarification of whom Jesus has come to call, sinners, Matthew 9:13 includes His directive to "go and learn what this means:..." which refers us to Hosea 6:6 contained within the context of the response to God's rebuke to return to, and press on, to know the LORD (with additional revelation of the character of the Benefactor of our salvation).
Looking back at Hosea 5 gives us further insight as to the rebuke which prompted this Hosea 6:6 answer, "For I desire [chesed] rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings." [Lovingkindness, or any one other English word, does not adequately encompass the entire meaning of 'chesed.'] Note Hosea 5:11, "Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment."
And, I see "Obedience is better than sacrifices." is from Samuel 15:22 where 'obedience' is denoted as hearing (shama) and listening to the voice of the LORD, which is a passive action complimentary to the Lord's active voice.
Considering this is probably an entirely different view of the same scripture, wouldn't this demonstrate why doctrine does matter as much?
Also, along with a clarification of whom Jesus has come to call, sinners, Matthew 9:13 includes His directive to "go and learn what this means:..." which refers us to Hosea 6:6 contained within the context of the response to God's rebuke to return to, and press on, to know the LORD (with additional revelation of the character of the Benefactor of our salvation).
Looking back at Hosea 5 gives us further insight as to the rebuke which prompted this Hosea 6:6 answer, "For I desire [chesed] rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings." [Lovingkindness, or any one other English word, does not adequately encompass the entire meaning of 'chesed.'] Note Hosea 5:11, "Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment."
And, I see "Obedience is better than sacrifices." is from Samuel 15:22 where 'obedience' is denoted as hearing (shama) and listening to the voice of the LORD, which is a passive action complimentary to the Lord's active voice.
Considering this is probably an entirely different view of the same scripture, wouldn't this demonstrate why doctrine does matter as much?
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Jesus two greatest commandments:
1. Love God with all your heart and soul
2. Love your neighbor as yourself (this means EVERYONE EVERYWHERE).
Yes, of course Jesus trumps Doctrine. Faith is important, but it is just a starter ... it is what you DO with that Faith that make all the difference. I have known lots of christians who were nasty and mean.
1. Love God with all your heart and soul
2. Love your neighbor as yourself (this means EVERYONE EVERYWHERE).
Yes, of course Jesus trumps Doctrine. Faith is important, but it is just a starter ... it is what you DO with that Faith that make all the difference. I have known lots of christians who were nasty and mean.
R
Let me illustrate the difference between the superiority of behavior over doctrine:
It's better that the Christian treat others here in this forum with the love of God than it is that they know what "wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather"-Matthew 24:28 means in Bible prophecy.
It may give one a feeling of closeness and knowledge of God to know what that verse means but, actually, how one treats people is the measure of being close to God.
It's better that the Christian treat others here in this forum with the love of God than it is that they know what "wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather"-Matthew 24:28 means in Bible prophecy.
It may give one a feeling of closeness and knowledge of God to know what that verse means but, actually, how one treats people is the measure of being close to God.
[QUOTE=Ralph-;3545826]Let me illustrate the difference between the superiority of behavior over doctrine:
It's better that the Christian treat others here in this forum with the love of God than it is that they know what "wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather"-Matthew 24:28 means in Bible prophecy.
It may give one a feeling of closeness and knowledge of God to know what that verse means but, actually, how one treats people is the measure of being close to God.[/QUOTE]
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Amen, Ralph. You have stated this perfectly. And this is the HARDEST thing to do. No one comes close to the command, but, that is the point. We are a work in progress.
It's better that the Christian treat others here in this forum with the love of God than it is that they know what "wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather"-Matthew 24:28 means in Bible prophecy.
It may give one a feeling of closeness and knowledge of God to know what that verse means but, actually, how one treats people is the measure of being close to God.[/QUOTE]
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Amen, Ralph. You have stated this perfectly. And this is the HARDEST thing to do. No one comes close to the command, but, that is the point. We are a work in progress.
R
I think it refers to the fact that our religious works of service for God will be rejected and will not make up for living in disobedience to the commands of God.
We Christians do tend to think our sacrifices make up for our lack of obedience. But we can't be mean to people and expect our sacrifices for God to make up for it. That's what the prophet chastises the Israelites about in Isaiah 58. Their fasting and festival observances were meaningless because they did not obey God in what really matters--how they treat each other:
"2For day after day they seek me out;they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the Lord?
6“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[SUP]a[/SUP] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11The Lord will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail."-Isaiah 58:2-11
And that's how it was with all their feasts and sabbaths and religious activities and doctrines about those things. They were meaningless observances and instructions because they didn't first obey the law to love each other. That was the most important thing.
And that is how it is with the church today. We take false comfort out of the sacrifice of our church attendance, our ministries and our service for God, all our learning, thinking that is the measure of our relationship with God, all the while we are in vicious conflict and strife with the people around us.
When we are obedient to that which really matters (treating other people kindly) that is when we lay hold of God's promises and we live and dwell close to him in his goodness and our prayers are answered and we get the life we long for and desire from God. Accurate doctrine and the abundance of our studies and ministries does not do that for us. That's not what God says. Obedience is better than the sacrifice of our service and the depth of our knowledge. Love is what counts, not doctrinal excellence.
We Christians do tend to think our sacrifices make up for our lack of obedience. But we can't be mean to people and expect our sacrifices for God to make up for it. That's what the prophet chastises the Israelites about in Isaiah 58. Their fasting and festival observances were meaningless because they did not obey God in what really matters--how they treat each other:
"2For day after day they seek me out;they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the Lord?
6“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[SUP]a[/SUP] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11The Lord will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail."-Isaiah 58:2-11
And that's how it was with all their feasts and sabbaths and religious activities and doctrines about those things. They were meaningless observances and instructions because they didn't first obey the law to love each other. That was the most important thing.
And that is how it is with the church today. We take false comfort out of the sacrifice of our church attendance, our ministries and our service for God, all our learning, thinking that is the measure of our relationship with God, all the while we are in vicious conflict and strife with the people around us.
When we are obedient to that which really matters (treating other people kindly) that is when we lay hold of God's promises and we live and dwell close to him in his goodness and our prayers are answered and we get the life we long for and desire from God. Accurate doctrine and the abundance of our studies and ministries does not do that for us. That's not what God says. Obedience is better than the sacrifice of our service and the depth of our knowledge. Love is what counts, not doctrinal excellence.