Which is more important: Correct doctrine or a godly attitude toward others?
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Homosexuality is not chosen. It is something people find out they are. In any case, NO, I do not tell people what to do. They have heard this injunction that you will go to Hell if you are a homosexual ... all the time. At that point, it is their decision. It is not my place to tell them what they already know. Yes, I have gay Christian friends. Not an oxymmoron. Homosexuality is whom you are attracted to. Sex is if/when you act on that inclination.
In any case, God says Judge not many more times than he says judge with righteous judgment. So, it is between them and God.
I do realize that many on this forum believe it is chosen. I never chose to be straight. God made me that way and it is my guess that God made them the way they are. I dont take a position on whether it is wrong or right to practice it as I am not gay so I dont have to deal with it. I think it is fair to say every homoexual alive has heard it said that they are sinful more times than they can remember. So they KNOW what "some" Christians think of it. They really do.
PS: Your love is showing.
In any case, God says Judge not many more times than he says judge with righteous judgment. So, it is between them and God.
I do realize that many on this forum believe it is chosen. I never chose to be straight. God made me that way and it is my guess that God made them the way they are. I dont take a position on whether it is wrong or right to practice it as I am not gay so I dont have to deal with it. I think it is fair to say every homoexual alive has heard it said that they are sinful more times than they can remember. So they KNOW what "some" Christians think of it. They really do.
PS: Your love is showing.
I guess you need to re-read what I have written. I never defined love. I never took a position on it except that it is not chosen, that they know.have been told. over and over again by as many people as possible that it is a sin. Period. I dont need to rationalize because I am not gay.
You have "read into" what I have said. Just as I would not rebuke a divorced woman or man OR a single Mum OR all the other sinners here on this site with more 'inivisible sins', I will not rebuke the gay person (not knowing what they have/have not done ... I try to, not be judgmental, as that would make me, (a sinner,) a hypocrite.
I am in no position to judge what others do/do not do behind closed doors.
God definitely can do that. I will leave it in His most capable hands.
Same sex attraction may not be chosen, but sexualizing it sure is. Not taking a stand on the matter is your business, but don't tell me that's love. I used to have some gay friends who were not Christians, and I never mentioned the subject to them. I just loved them like friends. If they had claimed to be Christians, I would have handled it differently.
Peter and John looked directly at the beggar asking for money. Peter said, "Look at us!" and the man looked expecting it but, instead, is told, in the Name of Jesus, "get up and walk!"
The people are astonished at this and wondered at 'their' power and are addresses this saying, "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that come through Him that has given him this complete healing in your presence." (Acts 3:16)
Peter adds, "And now, brothers, I know you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders." (Acts 3:17) and directs them to repent, and turn back, so that their sins may be forgiven (Acts 3:18). Repent of what? They had not been unkind, had they?
Likewise Acts 17:30 speaks of false images of God saying, "In times past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
1 Peter 1:14, implies the root of disobedience saying, "As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance."
Ephesians 4:18 speaks of ignorance of the gentiles also, "They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts."
And 1 Peter 2:15 says, "For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people." Here, good is diametrically opposed to evil and commendation is offered to those that endure the pain of suffering for being conscious of God (1 Peter 2:20).
Finally, Hebrews 9:7, again, alludes to the cause of sin as being ignorance saying, "But only the high priest entered the holy place, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." and further explains, "By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing." and following with this disclosing saying, "For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered Heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God." (Hebrew 4:24)
Nor did He enter Heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have to had suffered repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by he sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26)
Just as a man is appointed once to die, and then face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:27-28)
Understanding (knowledge) of this is doctrinal excellence, and great love follows the awareness.
The people are astonished at this and wondered at 'their' power and are addresses this saying, "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that come through Him that has given him this complete healing in your presence." (Acts 3:16)
Peter adds, "And now, brothers, I know you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders." (Acts 3:17) and directs them to repent, and turn back, so that their sins may be forgiven (Acts 3:18). Repent of what? They had not been unkind, had they?
Likewise Acts 17:30 speaks of false images of God saying, "In times past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
1 Peter 1:14, implies the root of disobedience saying, "As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance."
Ephesians 4:18 speaks of ignorance of the gentiles also, "They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts."
And 1 Peter 2:15 says, "For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people." Here, good is diametrically opposed to evil and commendation is offered to those that endure the pain of suffering for being conscious of God (1 Peter 2:20).
Finally, Hebrews 9:7, again, alludes to the cause of sin as being ignorance saying, "But only the high priest entered the holy place, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." and further explains, "By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing." and following with this disclosing saying, "For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered Heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God." (Hebrew 4:24)
Nor did He enter Heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have to had suffered repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by he sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26)
Just as a man is appointed once to die, and then face judgment, so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:27-28)
Understanding (knowledge) of this is doctrinal excellence, and great love follows the awareness.
Aha. Well, I never ask people what they do or don't do in bed. It's in bad form. I would never ask another woman such a question so how could I ask a gay person? If they came and said to me " I am doing *(*(*( and I want help ... well that would be a different story. I would refer them to a Pastor.
So, tell me. What would you have said to your gay friends if you somehow knew they were doing *(*(*(? What would they have said in return? My guess would be a) they would tell you they already knew this and didn't need a repeat and b) yu would have lost these "friends" of yours.
An example: I have a friend who is a single Mom. I know that she knows it is a sin in God's eyes. But here she is. here is her baby. The deed is done. She is a Christian woman (or maybe, as you say, she is not). What difference would my saying to her: you are a sinner and repent do? I think it would do nothing. Either she will or she wont .. repent. Nothing I can say will change that. For sure she knows its a sin. For sure gays know its a sin.
So I mind my own sins and let them mind theirs .. unless ... again ... they come to me.
I think that is how Jesus handled it. He hung out with sinners all the time. He did not attract people to Him by condemning them. What he did was preach what is right and what is good. And people caught on. Some did not. My point? "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
R
Yes, lots of people are quick to point this out. Perhaps to deflect the responsibility to love others as ourselves and rationalize not doing that(?)
I remind them that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is HOW you love God:
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."-1 John 4:20
The command to 'love God' does not dismiss the command to 'love others' in any way shape or form. You can't claim to love God if you don't love others. And you can't love others if you don't love God. That's why Jesus said the one command is like the other. The two commands are inseparable.
Too many people in the church thinking they are loving God, and taking false comfort in that, when they aren't loving the people around them.
I remind them that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is HOW you love God:
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."-1 John 4:20
The command to 'love God' does not dismiss the command to 'love others' in any way shape or form. You can't claim to love God if you don't love others. And you can't love others if you don't love God. That's why Jesus said the one command is like the other. The two commands are inseparable.
Too many people in the church thinking they are loving God, and taking false comfort in that, when they aren't loving the people around them.
R
The 'love' part being the most important part. That's the point. Having doctrinal excellence is not the goal. At best, it's the means to the ends.
The ends is what counts above and beyond the means. Love is more important than being able to fathom all mysteries or move any mountain.
If somebody is taking false comfort in knowing all mysteries, or moving all mountains, they need to learn what really counts and then do it. That's what counts.
The ends is what counts above and beyond the means. Love is more important than being able to fathom all mysteries or move any mountain.
If somebody is taking false comfort in knowing all mysteries, or moving all mountains, they need to learn what really counts and then do it. That's what counts.
R
And you still don't seem to grasp that this is about love being of more importance over and above doctrine, not that doctrine is useless, and can be wrong, or can be neglected.
If you or I think our relationship with God is about doctrine and not about being like Christ, we've got a problem. We've missed it somewhere along the line. The strength and accuracy of our doctrine, or our service, will never replace being Christ-like in behavior and how we treat other people, though our natural tendency is to think it can and will. That is exactly how the Israelites went wrong. We should learn from their bad example.
If you or I think our relationship with God is about doctrine and not about being like Christ, we've got a problem. We've missed it somewhere along the line. The strength and accuracy of our doctrine, or our service, will never replace being Christ-like in behavior and how we treat other people, though our natural tendency is to think it can and will. That is exactly how the Israelites went wrong. We should learn from their bad example.
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