WHO ARE THE ELECT?

[Forest]

the Idea of sinning willfully is living a life in sin after coming to the knowledge of the turth. We as Chirsitans sometimes fall short, yet we repent, we mourn that sin that separted us from God, we confess ask for forgiveness and endure the tempatations we are faced with, this is part of repentance.

If we continue in sin, we have abolished the effect of the sacrifice for our sins and will be accountable for them.

Now that being said, we can fall from grace, we can be cut off, everyone who hears the gospel has a choice to become the sons of God or not.

Does the natural man hear the gospel and make a choice to serve God? Not according to 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[feedm3]

Does the natural man hear the gospel and make a choice to serve God? Not according to 1 Cor 2:14.

NO becuase they are foolishness to him. This does not mean that one who was not saved, cannot hear the turn and decide that it is truth, and turn from being a natural man.

 

[feedm3]

NOT MY POST -------->Originally Posted by feedm3

Then as James said, you are a hearer not a doer. Your faith is DEAD (no life) meaning you never had faith. All you did was play a game, go through the motions or whatever. As Jude said, you have turned the grace of God to licentiousness, who's condemnation has been long since determined.

Paul said we are saved by Faith. Mere belief will not save anyone (even demons believe yet tremble) If you do not have faith (your faith is dead) Your not saved.

There are three gospels. Not two as many want to think

1. Licentious: I say a prayer and can live however I please. Zero fatih.
2. legalistic. Saved by obeying some commands (whether of the law, of the church or whatever) Faith is in own work, not Christ, thus No Faith)
3. Faith. Trust is in Gods work alone, His work on the cross, his promise of eternal life to all who trust him, And are assured of these things (faith is the substance of things "HOPED FOR" the evidence of things "NOT SEEN" His faith will produce works which prove his faith was real, not licentious!

I did not post the above statment, please be careful to quote correctly, Im sure Eteranally Greatful feels the same, you are quoting him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes we are saved by faith, but not our faith, it is Christ's faith that justifies us Gal 2:16. Our faith can bring about many salvations (deliverances) here in this world, but it is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

this makes no sense whatsoever. why does God need to have faith in us? and not us placing our faiht in him. we have already gone over the galations passage. you can use it all you want, but taking it out of context does not help your cause.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not according to what you just said, " he was saved because he believed (trusted or had faith) in God. His work of obeying God (which was not perfect in the least) was a byproduct of his faith, which saved him."
So I ask what if he never manifested this "byproduct" of his faith in which you said "saved him"
There is nothing being twisted here, these are your words.
Then I can imply if he was saved by faith+byproduct then faith w/o byproduct means NOT saved.

there you go twisting my words again. I asked if you wanted to discuss. do you or do you not?

Did Paul say Abraham was saved by his faith plus his works? No he did not. Thus either Paul lied. or he is deceiving us. Paul made it clear. Abraham was NOT SAVED BY WORKS. It gets no plainer than this!

No that is exactly what you just said, you are contradicting yourself.

So then I am saved before I prove I trust God.
So what those who do not trust God, do not "do what he says" and never were saved according to your view.
Then again it is still by works that we show if we trust God, therefore still faith+works, thats exactly what your saying.

Does God need proof? I thought God was all knowing, or is he not God? Do you think God knows who has true faith or not before they even do one work?

I love how people try to make God a human who is not all knowing, and would make a mistake of givcing someone salvation not knowing if their faith is real or not.

My salvation is not dependent on giving proof to men. It is dependent on God knowing if I have true faith or not. Of course God says he knew before the foundation of the world who would trust and who would not. If he knew this. he certainly knows who has real faith and who does not.

 

[feedm3]

there you go twisting my words again. I asked if you wanted to discuss. do you or do you not?

Did Paul say Abraham was saved by his faith plus his works? No he did not. Thus either Paul lied. or he is deceiving us. Paul made it clear. Abraham was NOT SAVED BY WORKS. It gets no plainer than this!

NO because he proving to the Romans that Abraham was saved without any works OF THE LAW, his point was that if everyone had to be circumcised, how was Abraham righteous before he was circumcised (a work under the law of Moses).

Romans chapter4 is a continuation of Chapter 3, its all in the same context. Remember context??
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Here is the context of the discussion laid out for you, then we get to Paul's example to prove his argument:
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

What works are being discussed in this chapter.
Does this have anything to do with Abraham's works of obedience and leaving the land God told him to, trusting God he would have a son in his old age, or offering Isaac?
NO, this is not whats being discussed in Romans.
I am trying to discuss this with you, I am not twisting your words as I have only shown the conclusions of what your saying.

When is Abraham's works of obedience discussed in the Bible?
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

This is in the context of Abraham's obedience to God, this is not concerning the Law of Moses.

If Abraham would not have obeyed God in the matters he would have had dead faith and would not be saved.

Even you said "dead faith" does not save. Please read this and consider what I am saying here.

A child of God has been saved because he believed the gospel concerning Christ, he obeyed the commands that were given to him to become such, and continues to walk in the light.

However, if the child of God chooses to return to sin, that does not mean that he never had real faith and thus was never a child of God.

By his works, he can "fall from grace". I will still use the examples given in the Book of Hebrews because the letter was written to the Christians in that time warning them not to return to the law because of all the false false teachers telling them that Christians still must perform certain works of the law to be saved, just as in the church of Galaitia.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
This has nothing to do with obeying the commands of God, but is speaking of the works under the law.
Proving by works we fall from grace, proving that works are the answer to God on our part, for what He has done by His grace.
By faith+obedience thanks to God's grace, we can be saved, but just as works can make us fall, they are also essential in God's plan of salvation because that's what he is warning us.

Does God need proof? I thought God was all knowing, or is he not God? Do you think God knows who has true faith or not before they even do one work?

I love how people try to make God a human who is not all knowing, and would make a mistake of giving someone salvation not knowing if their faith is real or not.

My salvation is not dependent on giving proof to men. It is dependent on God knowing if I have true faith or not. Of course God says he knew before the foundation of the world who would trust and who would not. If he knew this. he certainly knows who has real faith and who does not.

Proving our trust to God is the conclusion that one will come to if they take your words concerning salvation.
I have twisted nothing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NO because he proving to the Romans that Abraham was saved without any works OF THE LAW, his point was that if everyone had to be circumcised, how was Abraham righteous before he was circumcised (a work under the law of Moses).

Romans chapter4 is a continuation of Chapter 3, its all in the same context. Remember context??
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Here is the context of the discussion laid out for you, then we get to Paul's example to prove his argument:
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

What works are being discussed in this chapter.
Does this have anything to do with Abraham's works of obedience and leaving the land God told him to, trusting God he would have a son in his old age, or offering Isaac?
NO, this is not whats being discussed in Romans.
I am trying to discuss this with you, I am not twisting your words as I have only shown the conclusions of what your saying.

When is Abraham's works of obedience discussed in the Bible?
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Romans 4 : 1 - 8 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works,

(works here is plural, not singular. If he was just talking about circumcision, he would have used a singular noun)

he has something to boast about,

And here we go again. does this look familiar? What about Pauls letter to the ephesian church "Not of works LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST)

but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

(Does it say what Kind of work here? Does it say JUST CIRCUMCISION?, or does it include any work whatever?

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

(Again, here we have the exact same type of wording Paul used to the ephesians. For by Grace (unearned favor) we are saved by FAITH, not of works least any man should boast

Can't you see? If you work, you are not justified, you incur debt, But if you do not work, You are justified from your debt, because of your faiht in Christ. Why do you want to twist this??

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

This is in the context of Abraham's obedience to God, this is not concerning the Law of Moses.

Your twisting what Paul said. Paul said in both romans 4 and eph 2 not of works. He does not mean works of the law. Abraham was found before works of the law. So he could never be saved by works of the law.

James is speaking of the work Abraham did which proved his faith was real. James was condemning a false licentious gospel. where people claimed to be saved yet did not have a changed life, and lived as they did before. He did not speak to the same audience Paul spoke to. Paul spoke against legalism, James spoke against licentiousness. Thus they do not contradict. they harmonies. James is showing people something they need to know. If you see people who say they have faith, but have no works, they are dead (including their faith) These people were leaders in the churches. we know this because they had the authority to sit the poor in the back, and rich hypocrites up front.

Again I ask. Does God need proof our faith is real? Does he need to see work bec=fore he saves us? or does he already know we will do the work? do you really believe God would save someone, and be surprised that they would turn away, continue in sin, or not work? Can't you see how you are degrading Gods character?

If Abraham would not have obeyed God in the matters he would have had dead faith and would not be saved.

Even you said "dead faith" does not save. Please read this and consider what I am saying here.

Or why don't you consider what I am saying. Abraham had faith. God saved him. Abraham proved to the world that God was write in saving him by doing the work God asked him to do. GOD DOES NOT NEED PROOF!

A child of God has been saved because he believed the gospel concerning Christ, he obeyed the commands that were given to him to become such, and continues to walk in the light.

However, if the child of God chooses to return to sin, that does not mean that he never had real faith and thus was never a child of God.

No it would prove a few things

1. The fact that at one time he did do work, he probably was saved.
2. he is currently in the state of sin a prodigal son, But he is still saved.
3. God may take him home before he has a chance to repent and come back to his fathers house. But he is still a son. He never stopped being a son.
4. You don't think God knew he was going to fall in sin when he saved him in the first place. are you saying God was surprised by this act of falling? And gave a gift of eternal life by mistake?

By his works, he can "fall from grace". I will still use the examples given in the Book of Hebrews because the letter was written to the Christians in that time warning them not to return to the law because of all the false false teachers telling them that Christians still must perform certain works of the law to be saved, just as in the church of Galaitia.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
This has nothing to do with obeying the commands of God, but is speaking of the works under the law.
Proving by works we fall from grace, proving that works are the answer to God on our part, for what He has done by His grace.
By faith+obedience thanks to God's grace, we can be saved, but just as works can make us fall, they are also essential in God's plan of salvation because that's what he is warning us.


Proving our trust to God is the conclusion that one will come to if they take your words concerning salvation.
I have twisted nothing.

Are you ready to discuss Hebrews yet? or keep beating around the bush?

1. What where the sacrifices and circumcision used for in the OT law?

 

[feedm3]

Eternally Grateful,

This can be considered more of a sidenote to our disscussion. I should not have insinuated you live a licentious lifestyle as I can know that because I can not know the motives of men, only God does. Im sorry for that. I have no idea how you live your life.

However, I believe that though not all who believe what you do is because of selfeshness, I do bleieve that it is the root of the "Faith only" doctine.
I am sure you have heard of the website " Jesus is Savior.com, it seems to popular in many of the google search results. I found this article writen there at this address: "Just Shut Up and Get On the Ark!"

Here is an excerpt of it, and in it you can see why I might make assumtions on motives, though I will try not to do so anymore:
(emphasis added by me)
"Noah and his family were saved from the flood by getting on the ark, period. The ark is a symbol of salvation. They didn't have to amend their ways, promise to do better in the future, give up the world, make a commitment to Christ nor reform. No, they simply got on the ark before the door was shut and the rains began to fall. This is the simplicity of salvation which is in Christ Jesus. "

Notice what is used here to lure people to this false doctrine.
You do not have to:
1. "give up the world" - Yet God says "love not the world", "be ye separte from among them" Paul "we dead to the world" and that was "crucified to the world and the world to him by Christ" - Gal 6:14.

2. "promise to do better in the future" - then what is repentace? - Luk 13:3, Acts 2:38.

3. "make a commitment to Christ" - Then how do we "walk after the spirit", "set our minds on Christ", "follow after his steps", "have the mind of Christ"?

This is why so many people will choose this doctrine, so many have, that is why the majority believe this. Yet it is because it is convenient to live with such a mindset.
I am not accusing you of having the motives, I just wanted to show you why sometimes I can make the mistake in assuming such, though it does not make that right.

Anyway, we continue with the discussion at hand.

 

[feedm3]

QUOTE]Romans 4 : 1 - 8 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works,

(works here is plural, not singular. If he was just talking about circumcision, he would have used a singular noun)[/quote]

No wrong again: That is a very foolish way to interpret scripture.
Just because he was using circumcision as his example, does that mean what he said is limited only to circumcision? think about it.

What he said pertains to the whole law of Moses, all the works (plural) that are under the law.

comeon, you know that, your wasting my time making me explain this non sense.
You know enough Greek to be dangerous.

And here we go again. does this look familiar? What about Pauls letter to the ephesian church "Not of works LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST)

but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

(Does it say what Kind of work here? Does it say JUST CIRCUMCISION?, or does it include any work whatever?

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

(Again, here we have the exact same type of wording Paul used to the ephesians. For by Grace (unearned favor) we are saved by FAITH, not of works least any man should boast

Can't you see? If you work, you are not justified, you incur debt, But if you do not work, You are justified from your debt, because of your faiht in Christ. Why do you want to twist this??

Man you cry "twisting" on every thing you say and the Bible, yet you do not show it at all.
Eph 2: read it again, Paul is not using "works" to describe obedience under the NT.
He is speaking of meritorous works.
He is saying that nothing the Ephesians did ever deserved God givign Christ for the world.
He is telling them not to think they are deserving of God's grace.
This does not mean you do not have to obey God.
Anyone who thinks obedience to the Bible is trying to earn something is crazy.

question:
If I beleive that I must obey every command in the Bible to the best of my ability in order to be saved, am I still saved????? please anwser this
[/color]

Your twisting what Paul said. Paul said in both romans 4 and eph 2 not of works. He does not mean works of the law. Abraham was found before works of the law. So he could never be saved by works of the law.
That is exactly Paul's point, see you do get it almost. You just said exactly what Paul is trying to convey in that message. You cannot be saved by the works of the Law or else Abraham would have not been saved seeing he was not under the Law of Moses. And he is making the point that Abraham was justified by God, before he was circumsied due to his obedience. There nothing twisted, read the context.

James is speaking of the work Abraham did which proved his faith was real. James was condemning a false licentious gospel. where people claimed to be saved yet did not have a changed life, and lived as they did before.

So by the works (there way of living) it was a condemded lifestyle?
so again here you go with works proving real or fake faith.
If I twisted that, show a valid, alternate conclusion of what you just wrote.

He did not speak to the same audience Paul spoke to. Paul spoke against legalism, James spoke against licentiousness. Thus they do not contradict. they harmonies. James is showing people something they need to know.

If you see people who say they have faith, but have no works, they are dead (including their faith)

wow, how are you not hearing yourself here? That's what i am saying as well.
I guess we agree.
Faith+works is what saves, otherwise it is "dead faith".

These people were leaders in the churches. we know this because they had the authority to sit the poor in the back, and rich hypocrites up front.

[/quote]No Paul spoke against the works of the Law, and meritours works.
James spoke of the disobedient, those who have dead faith.

Again I ask. Does God need proof our faith is real? Does he need to see work bec=fore he saves us? or does he already know we will do the work? do you really believe God would save someone, and be surprised that they would turn away, continue in sin, or not work? Can't you see how you are degrading Gods character?

Another foolish question, in which now you trying to know the mind of God.
I have no idea how God decides to do what he does because he has not revealed that to me, what he has revealed is the he sent his son to die for us, all who will obey = Heb 5:9.
I am not going to go beyond what is written for it is a sin to do so.
You might want to watch that.

Or why don't you consider what I am saying. Abraham had faith. God saved him. Abraham proved to the world that God was write in saving him by doing the work God asked him to do. GOD DOES NOT NEED PROOF!

Again, if he did not the work, then what?
why are you ranting about proof as if I said that, it was from your statement that is I do what I as then I show I trust God.
Does God need us to show him we trust him???

Are you ready to discuss Hebrews yet? or keep beating around the bush?

Wow, I did not expect that. I actually was trying not to bring it up so as not to seem prideful after you proven wrong. But sure Lets disscuss Hebrews.

1. What where the sacrifices and circumcision used for in the OT law?

For the sins of the people.

Now you answer my questions you skipped please:

When he mentions sacrifice, he means sacrifice of the law (animal sacrifice) are you going to ignore this fact?

So then you are now saying that animal sacrifice is the true sacrifice?
He said "if you sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH, there remains no more sacrifice for sin,
question 1. So if they did not sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, the animal sacrifice would still be valid?

And you are COMPLETELY IGNORING CONTEXT. Hebrews was not written to the church, It was written to jews (Hebrews) still trying to follow law.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
question 2. Are you going to read this and still hold this letter was not written to the church?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternally Grateful,

Notice what is used here to lure people to this false doctrine.
You do not have to:
1. "give up the world" - Yet God says "love not the world", "be ye separte from among them" Paul "we dead to the world" and that was "crucified to the world and the world to him by Christ" - Gal 6:14.

2. "promise to do better in the future" - then what is repentace? - Luk 13:3, Acts 2:38.

3. "make a commitment to Christ" - Then how do we "walk after the spirit", "set our minds on Christ", "follow after his steps", "have the mind of Christ"?

This is why so many people will choose this doctrine, so many have, that is why the majority believe this. Yet it is because it is convenient to live with such a mindset.
I am not accusing you of having the motives, I just wanted to show you why sometimes I can make the mistake in assuming such, though it does not make that right.

Anyway, we continue with the discussion at hand.

I will not respond to the ark comment, because it does not help us, it is what someone else said. I will however respond to the questions you asked.

1. "give up the world"

Scripture states 'the world" system, or the cosmos, is full of sin. When we were in the world. We did things however we pleased. We did not admit, or even acknowledge that the word or the sin in it was sin.

When God comes to us, and shows us the world and the worlds guilt as being guilty against his just requirement (which is the law I might add) and as a part of it, we will suffer the fate we justly deserve (death) if we do not come out of the world. we have two choices.

1. Love the world and the things in it, thus reject Christ (even a licentious gospel teaches love of the world. that is why they will claim to believe, and maybe even claim to be saved, But they are not, because they love the world.

2. Repent, admit yes I am guilty, admit the just requirement held against me is the law. and the world, thus i am guilty, and admit there is only one way to be saved from the world. the death of Christ.

Those in the world, are in adam, and are dead (spiritually) because of it. Those in christ are no longer in the world, but "in Christ" it does not mean they will no longer sin, it means thay have been taken out of the world, and placed in Christ. God will not do this just because, He offers it only to those who will trust him (faith)

No. to say we must "come out of the world" to be saved. and thus have to work for it. Places us back under law. Because it is the law which states the world is guilty. To say we must work to come out of it, is to say we must follow the just requirement of the law. and be righteous of our own deeds. thus take credit for salvation, because we worked for it. God does not get any credit.

Paul says we are not under law but under grace. When we are in the world, we are under law. and the law condemnes us. When we are under grace, although we may (will) still sin, we are no longer under law. Thus sin can not condemn us. Does this mean we be licentious and live in sin? No. Those who have truly repented will no longer live the lifestyle of sin. Unlike the world. We have the HS who chastens us. I have been a prodigal son. Believe me, The chastening of the HS will bring you back. No human father can correct us like God can.

2. "promise to do better in the future" - then what is repentace?

1. How can I make a promise I can not keep? I am still going to sin, to say I will not I would be a liar (1 john) so I can't make a promise to be better. James says that if I break even the least of the law, I am just as guilty as if I broke all the commands. Thus if I say one little white lie. I am just as guilty as if I committed murder.

2. I can't be better on my own. Christ has to teach me his law, the reasoning of his law. And teach me his way is better. As I learn to trust him. I will get better, but not of my own will or power. but only by the power of God. As paul says in Romans 7. What I will I can not do, What I don't will, that I do, oh what a wretched man I AM (present tense). I can't will to get better. I need Gods strength and power. Unless I am born again, and am given his spirit. I can't change. So how could this be a pre-requisite when it is impossible?

As for repentance. It literally means a change of mind or change of heart. Thats all. I agree I am a sinner. and guilty (where as before I did nto agree, I loved my sin and my state), and I can't save myself. Only thorugh Christ can I be saved. This is repentance to salvation.

then after I am saved, I have other types of repentance. I might not agree that a particular sin is sin. But as I learn about God. and see his reasoning for calling this thing sin, I repent. and agree it is sin. And I also see the damage it has done me and others around me. This is a continual thing, which happens AFTER we are saved.

3. "make a commitment to Christ" - Then how do we "walk after the spirit", "set our minds on Christ", "follow after his steps", "have the mind of Christ"?

To follow Christ. we must follow the law. To make this a requirement for salvation places us back under law. Paul makes it clear. The law condemns, it can never save.

as for walk after the spirit. He made this comment to believers in Christ/. who were partakers of God and his children. He is showing us how we can break sin.

When we follow the law. The law says do not do this. This may lead to temptation, and this may lead to sin.

When we follow the spirit. we do not think of sin, thus we will not sin.

This is why legalism will never work. I grew up in legalism. I saw many men I thought were giants in the church fall. Because they were trying to be good. and not allowing God to help them be good. they were under law. and this will never work to help us change our sin habits. EVER!

What you have just done is place yourself back under law my friend. Face it. the only way you can be saved is to be perfect. you already failed that, As we all have (rom 3: 23) so your time of being saved by your own power, by your own righteous deeds died when you broke the first command you ever broke.

You call my gospel dangerous. it is yours which is dangerous. because you are placing people back under law. trying to make them earn salvation. not receive it.

 

[feedm3]

I will not respond to the ark comment, because it does not help us, it is what someone else said. I will however respond to the questions you asked.

1. "give up the world"

Scripture states 'the world" system, or the cosmos, is full of sin. When we were in the world. We did things however we pleased. We did not admit, or even acknowledge that the word or the sin in it was sin.

When God comes to us, and shows us the world and the worlds guilt as being guilty against his just requirement (which is the law I might add) and as a part of it, we will suffer the fate we justly deserve (death) if we do not come out of the world. we have two choices.

1. Love the world and the things in it, thus reject Christ (even a licentious gospel teaches love of the world. that is why they will claim to believe, and maybe even claim to be saved, But they are not, because they love the world.

2. Repent, admit yes I am guilty, admit the just requirement held against me is the law. and the world, thus i am guilty, and admit there is only one way to be saved from the world. the death of Christ.

Those in the world, are in adam, and are dead (spiritually) because of it. Those in christ are no longer in the world, but "in Christ" it does not mean they will no longer sin, it means thay have been taken out of the world, and placed in Christ. God will not do this just because, He offers it only to those who will trust him (faith)

No. to say we must "come out of the world" to be saved. and thus have to work for it. Places us back under law. Because it is the law which states the world is guilty. To say we must work to come out of it, is to say we must follow the just requirement of the law. and be righteous of our own deeds. thus take credit for salvation, because we worked for it. God does not get any credit.

Paul says we are not under law but under grace. When we are in the world, we are under law. and the law condemnes us. When we are under grace, although we may (will) still sin, we are no longer under law. Thus sin can not condemn us. Does this mean we be licentious and live in sin? No. Those who have truly repented will no longer live the lifestyle of sin. Unlike the world. We have the HS who chastens us. I have been a prodigal son. Believe me, The chastening of the HS will bring you back. No human father can correct us like God can.

2. "promise to do better in the future" - then what is repentace?

1. How can I make a promise I can not keep? I am still going to sin, to say I will not I would be a liar (1 john) so I can't make a promise to be better. James says that if I break even the least of the law, I am just as guilty as if I broke all the commands. Thus if I say one little white lie. I am just as guilty as if I committed murder.

2. I can't be better on my own. Christ has to teach me his law, the reasoning of his law. And teach me his way is better. As I learn to trust him. I will get better, but not of my own will or power. but only by the power of God. As paul says in Romans 7. What I will I can not do, What I don't will, that I do, oh what a wretched man I AM (present tense). I can't will to get better. I need Gods strength and power. Unless I am born again, and am given his spirit. I can't change. So how could this be a pre-requisite when it is impossible?

As for repentance. It literally means a change of mind or change of heart. Thats all. I agree I am a sinner. and guilty (where as before I did nto agree, I loved my sin and my state), and I can't save myself. Only thorugh Christ can I be saved. This is repentance to salvation.

then after I am saved, I have other types of repentance. I might not agree that a particular sin is sin. But as I learn about God. and see his reasoning for calling this thing sin, I repent. and agree it is sin. And I also see the damage it has done me and others around me. This is a continual thing, which happens AFTER we are saved.

3. "make a commitment to Christ" - Then how do we "walk after the spirit", "set our minds on Christ", "follow after his steps", "have the mind of Christ"?

To follow Christ. we must follow the law. To make this a requirement for salvation places us back under law. Paul makes it clear. The law condemns, it can never save.

as for walk after the spirit. He made this comment to believers in Christ/. who were partakers of God and his children. He is showing us how we can break sin.

When we follow the law. The law says do not do this. This may lead to temptation, and this may lead to sin.

When we follow the spirit. we do not think of sin, thus we will not sin.

This is why legalism will never work. I grew up in legalism. I saw many men I thought were giants in the church fall. Because they were trying to be good. and not allowing God to help them be good. they were under law. and this will never work to help us change our sin habits. EVER!

What you have just done is place yourself back under law my friend. Face it. the only way you can be saved is to be perfect. you already failed that, As we all have (rom 3: 23) so your time of being saved by your own power, by your own righteous deeds died when you broke the first command you ever broke.

You call my gospel dangerous. it is yours which is dangerous. because you are placing people back under law. trying to make them earn salvation. not receive it.

First of all, I wasn't expecting a response I was just trying to apologize for insinuating motives for you belief.
The questions were rhetorical in that i did not expect you to answer the questions I have that another wrote.
My questions to you are on the next post concerning Hebrews.
Stop trying to stall and answer them please, or dont if you cant, it really doesn't matter to me.

We do not have to be perfect in the of flawless, considering that why Christ shed his blood for us.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, if cant answer just ignore them like the rest.

 

[feedm3]

Eternally Grateful,
While I am waiting for your response let me say this.

You cant even explain your position without contradicting yourself so much you end up agreeing with me.

Go read your other posts, you flip-flopping between postistions.

Let me get you belief straight so we can be on the same page:

You believe that if one believes he is not saved unless he carries out the works that prove his faith is real. If not please clarify.
You believe that when one believes if he does not carry out the works commanded, he was never really saved in the first place. if not please clarify.
You believe Since God is omniscient, he knows those who are really saved at the point of belief and those who are not.

1. If I am not saved because I believe yet did no works to show it, How are the works not essential to my salvation?

2. If I was saved at the point of belief, because God knew I would do the works commanded, then again how are works non-essential to salvation?

I am betting I will not get a straight answer on these, I am sure you will respond like the rest, because even you are intelligent enough to see the contradictions in you beliefs, yet your pride is keeping you acting as if you cannot see them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

QUOTE]Romans 4 : 1 - 8 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works,

(works here is plural, not singular. If he was just talking about circumcision, he would have used a singular noun)

No wrong again: That is a very foolish way to interpret scripture.
Just because he was using circumcision as his example, does that mean what he said is limited only to circumcision? think about it.

What he said pertains to the whole law of Moses, all the works (plural) that are under the law.

comeon, you know that, your wasting my time making me explain this non sense.
You know enough Greek to be dangerous.

You don't know enough greek to be dangerous.

There was no law in Abraham's time. This he could not be speaking about works of the law. He is making it clear. Abraham was not saved by his good deeds (works) but by his faith which saved him. If he was saved because he left his country, Tried to sacrifice his son, and all the other works he did. He would have something to boast about. But what does scripture say?

'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to his account for righteousness

Gen 15:

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

As you can see, Abraham was saved why? Because he trusted God. Not because he did any of the good deeds he did because of his faith in what God said. Why would you want to twist this, and say God made this statement through moses talking baout works of the law. which had not even been given yet?

Man you cry "twisting" on every thing you say and the Bible, yet you do not show it at all.
Eph 2: read it again, Paul is not using "works" to describe obedience under the NT.
He is speaking of meritorous works.
He is saying that nothing the Ephesians did ever deserved God givign Christ for the world.
He is telling them not to think they are deserving of God's grace.
This does not mean you do not have to obey God.
Anyone who thinks obedience to the Bible is trying to earn something is crazy.

Yet this is exactly what the jews thought. And why Paul had to continually knock down this works based Gospel. And why I am doing the same thing today.

A work is a work is a work. There are no meritorious and non meritorious works. they are all works. If you trying to be saved by being obedient, your placing yourself under law and not under grace.

question:
If I beleive that I must obey every command in the Bible to the best of my ability in order to be saved, am I still saved????? please anwser this

Still saved? You never were saved, because your faith is in your works, and your ability to do what you set out to do. And not on the gift Of Christ based on his work of the cross. Your no different than the jews who cricified Christ, and the jews who continued to try to distort truth in the new church, which paul had to continually fight, by showing we are not saved by OUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (our good deeds, our aboayng gods command) but by HIS MERCY.

Your trying to earn salvation. not receive it. you have not repented at all.

So by the works (there way of living) it was a condemded lifestyle?
so again here you go with works proving real or fake faith.
If I twisted that, show a valid, alternate conclusion of what you just wrote.

Have you ever actually studied james?? WHAT WORKS?

They were hearers NOT DOERS. Everything James said these people did went against what God wanted. And your saying they were works? James said NO WORKS. Do you understand what NO WORKS means? How much work is zero works? What if someone does one work would he fit this category of zero works?

zero works = zero faith. That is what james is saying. He did not say a few works. or not enough works. he said if you have NO WORK, your faith is DEAD. why would we want to twist it to mean something other than this?

wow, how are you not hearing yourself here? That's what i am saying as well.
I guess we agree.
Faith+works is what saves, otherwise it is "dead faith".

No we are not. JAMES SAID NO WORK. zero zip nada = zero faith. James did not say some work, or not enough work. your trying to twist what james said!

Paul said in eph 2: 8-10 that faith = salvation will = work. Paul is telling us how we are saved.

james flips it around, but he is saying the same thing. no work = no faith = no salvation. James is stating a fact about who is not saved.

Another foolish question, in which now you trying to know the mind of God.
I have no idea how God decides to do what he does because he has not revealed that to me, what he has revealed is the he sent his son to die for us, all who will obey = Heb 5:9.
I am not going to go beyond what is written for it is a sin to do so.
You might want to watch that.

Thats your problem. God te3lls us he knows all. you evidently do not believe it for you think God would save someone that one day will turn away and God will have to take his GIFT back. thus eternal life is not eternal but conditional. and God only gives us this gift as a downpayment for our works. In other words. he saves u by faith. but we must perfect this salvation by works. Paul calls people who believe in this fools.

Again, if he did not the work, then what?
why are you ranting about proof as if I said that, it was from your statement that is I do what I as then I show I trust God.
Does God need us to show him we trust him???

No he does not. but according to you, evidently he does. Why I do not know

Wow, I did not expect that. I actually was trying not to bring it up so as not to seem prideful after you proven wrong. But sure Lets disscuss Hebrews.

For the sins of the people.

Now you answer my questions you skipped please:

Why, you have yet to answer my questions about hebrews, you keep going off on tangents which has nothing to do with hebrews.

So then you are now saying that animal sacrifice is the true sacrifice?
He said "if you sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH, there remains no more sacrifice for sin,

He is telling this to people who trying to go back under sacrificial system of law. These people believe that when they sinned, they could not be forgiven unless an animal was sacrificed. so they could go on and do whatever sin they wanted. all they have to do is sacrifice and animal and they were forgiven. This is what is meant by "no more sacrifice" as the author said, the blood of bulls anf goats never took away sin, so if this is how your trying to be made right with God. your on a losing trip.

most of the book of hebrews is based on this concept. of people losing salvation when they sinned. so an animal has to be sacrificed for them to be forgiven again. So if you go on sinning willfully and expect an animal being sacrificed to allow God to forgive you, your screwed.

question 1. So if they did not sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, the animal sacrifice would still be valid?

No, that was the point, the animal sacrifice could not forgive you. even though they though tit did. that is the context of the passage.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

question 2. Are you going to read this and still hold this letter was not written to the church?

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Notice the wording.

1. But you
2. To the church
3. To Jesus
4. To the sprinking of blood

Was he writing it to Jesus, and to the blood of sprinkling also? There is a reason it is called hebrews, it was a letter to the hebrews who were trying to reinstill the law into the things of the church. Sorry if I refuse to twist Gods word to support my belief.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternally Grateful,
While I am waiting for your response let me say this.

You cant even explain your position without contradicting yourself so much you end up agreeing with me.

Go read your other posts, you flip-flopping between postistions.

Let me get you belief straight so we can be on the same page:

You believe that if one believes he is not saved unless he carries out the works that prove his faith is real. If not please clarify.

Wrong. People who are saved WILL do those works. vs those who are not saved will not do them, or do them for the wrong reasons. That is why God gave them eternal life. he knew they had true faith!

You believe that when one believes if he does not carry out the works commanded, he was never really saved in the first place. if not please clarify.

Those who are not saved, (licentious belief) like james said, will show no works. those are james words not mine.

it is not even about works. Jesus said many will come to him saying they did all kinds of works. he will say depart for he NEVER KNEW THEM. These people did works. thus they would not fit the james model of zero works. yet why did God never know them?? (they were thus never saved)

You believe Since God is omniscient, he knows those who are really saved at the point of belief and those who are not.

scripture stated he knew before the foundation of the world. thus he knew before you or I was even born. so I don't get your point.

1. If I am not saved because I believe yet did no works to show it, How are the works not essential to my salvation?

2. If I was saved at the point of belief, because God knew I would do the works commanded, then again how are works non-essential to salvation?

again. JAMES SPOKE TO LICENTIOUS BELIEVERS. WHO HAD A BELIEF ONLY. they were hearers not doers.

works is not an issue.

paul said zero works are addeed to faith. james said those who have no faith will have zero works.

again same thing, different wording, your making it more complicated than it has to be.

I am betting I will not get a straight answer on these, I am sure you will respond like the rest, because even you are intelligent enough to see the contradictions in you beliefs, yet your pride is keeping you acting as if you cannot see them.

well think again. in fact it is your pride which is not allowing you to even see what I believe. because you have no clue what I believe, and you prove it everytime you twist my words.

 

[feedm3]

Wrong. People who are saved WILL do those works. vs those who are not saved will not do them, or do them for the wrong reasons. That is why God gave them eternal life. he knew they had true faith!

Ok? So God knew they had true faith because he knew they would do the works.
So then when we believe we are saved by God's knowledge that we will do the works he has commanded.

So salvation is believe+God's knowledge you will do works+doing the works.
Your view still bases salvation on works, along with God and belief.
That's my view as well God's grace+faith+works, we have the same outcome just from different perspectives.

Can you really not see this?
If you want to believe that we are saved at the point of belief with God's knowledge we will do works, fine with me.
Then you should be telling people to make sure they are working because if they are not they were not truly saved by their dead faith.

This is not twist, this is the only conclusion one can come to based on what your saying.
You are refuting yourself!

Those who are not saved, (licentious belief) like james said, will show no works. those are james words not mine.

it is not even about works. Jesus said many will come to him saying they did all kinds of works. he will say depart for he NEVER KNEW THEM. These people did works. thus they would not fit the james model of zero works. yet why did God never know them?? (they were thus never saved)

Those who are not saved, are not saved because they do not works? then you say it has nothing to do with works?

Another contradiction.

scripture stated he knew before the foundation of the world. thus he knew before you or I was even born. so I don't get your point.

My point is that with what your saying now, we are saved at the point of belief, only because of God's knowledge we will do works, otherwise he knows we will not and we are not saved.

Thus, making the condition of saved of lost due to works.

Again you are agreeing with me from a different perspective.

again. JAMES SPOKE TO LICENTIOUS BELIEVERS. WHO HAD A BELIEF ONLY. they were hearers not doers.

works is not an issue.

If works are not an issue, then what were they NOT doers of?
Not doers of belief?
Not doers of what?
Please attempt to explain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok? So God knew they had true faith because he knew they would do the works.
So then when we believe we are saved by God's knowledge that we will do the works he has commanded.

So salvation is believe+God's knowledge you will do works+doing the works.
Your view still bases salvation on works, along with God and belief.
That's my view as well God's grace+faith+works, we have the same outcome just from different perspectives.

Can you really not see this?
If you want to believe that we are saved at the point of belief with God's knowledge we will do works, fine with me.
Then you should be telling people to make sure they are working because if they are not they were not truly saved by their dead faith.

This is not twist, this is the only conclusion one can come to based on what your saying.
You are refuting yourself!

Why do you continue to twist things?

We are talking about james. Are you ever going to admit james is talking to people who are hearers and not doers? who have NO works. or are we going to keep going around in circles?

James audience was licentious believers. people who had mere belief but no faith. He was not talking to people who were trying to work to earn salvation.

Pauls audience was different, he spoke to legalistic people trying to add works to grace. that is why they appear to be saying different things, but they do not. They are saying the same.

Again. James did not say if you have a few works. or not enough work, your faith is dead. He is saying if you have zero works. Thus again. your interpretation that some work is required does not even fit james model.

Those who are not saved, are not saved because they do not works? then you say it has nothing to do with works?

Another contradiction.

No, they are not saved because of one of two reasons.

1. according to james, they had zero faith. proven by the fact they had no works. (licentious)
2. According to paul they believed in a different gospel. and tried to add works to grace. thus there faith is not in the work of Christ. but their own works. (legalistic)

neither person had faith in Christ. thus works are not the issue. lack of faith was. One did works. but in order to earn salvation. one did not do any works, because they did not have faith.

My point is that with what your saying now, we are saved at the point of belief, only because of God's knowledge we will do works, otherwise he knows we will not and we are not saved.

Thus, making the condition of saved of lost due to works.

Again you are agreeing with me from a different perspective.

No. I am saying they are not saved because they did not have faith period. your trying to twist what I am saying.

If we are talking in the context of james, they will have no works.

If we are talking in the context of paul. they will do works (like get baptized, try to be good take communion, go to church or whatever work it is) but will not be saved because they might have done these things in Gods name, But for the wrong reason (they tried to earn a gift) and as jesus said he will say, "depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU.

again, how could jesus say he never knew them if they were at one time saved.

If works are not an issue, then what were they NOT doers of?
Not doers of belief?
Not doers of what?
Please attempt to explain.

I have many times. you can't see I can only assume because you do not want to see. It gets no clearer than this.

Paul.. faith = salvation will = works

The people paul condemned were trying to add works to Grace, and paul called it a false gospel.

James.. No faith = no salvation = no works

The people james condemned were not trying to add works to salvation. They are the very people you are condemning. And rightly so. People who have mere belief, but no faith. and believe they can live however they please and still be saved.



they say the exact same thing, but in different ways, because their audience was different.

 

[feedm3]

You don't know enough greek to be dangerous.

thank you

There was no law in Abraham's time. This he could not be speaking about works of the law. He is making it clear. Abraham was not saved by his good deeds (works) but by his faith which saved him. If he was saved because he left his country, Tried to sacrifice his son, and all the other works he did. He would have something to boast about. But what does scripture say?

Once again you show how unfamiliar you are with the Bible, Old and New Testaments:

NOw you are trying to say there was no law at all for Abraham? Seriously?
Abraham was under the patriarchal law system.
It was done away with the Mosiacial Law given on mount Sinai.
In fact what do you think the those in the book Genesis just did what they wanted to?
They a sacrificial ritual, they laws pertaining to murder, in fact so many laws I could not list them here.
What in the world are talking about, are we reading the same book?
If there was no law, there was no sin.

"Sin is transgression of the Law" I Jn 3:4
In fact was Abraham circumcised ever at all?

'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to his account for righteousness

Gen 15:

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

As you can see, Abraham was saved why? Because he trusted God. Not because he did any of the good deeds he did because of his faith in what God said. Why would you want to twist this, and say God made this statement through moses talking baout works of the law. which had not even been given yet?

Again that is the point that Paul is making in Hebrews.
That if we could only be saved through the works of the law, then Abraham would not have been saved seeing he is before the law.
Go read Romans again please, it's all there in the text, all you have to read it.

Yet this is exactly what the jews thought. And why Paul had to continually knock down this works based Gospel. And why I am doing the same thing today.

A work is a work is a work. There are no meritorious and non meritorious works. they are all works. If you trying to be saved by being obedient, your placing yourself under law and not under grace.

I know there are not meritorious works that can save us, I know that because of Eph 2, And know that we cannot be saved by the works of the thanks to Romans and Hebrews, But I do know that obedience is essential to our salvation because of James, and Hebrews, You wont acknowledge the context which defines the works for us.
We are under the "Law of Christ", we are to keep "our WORK of faith" .

Still saved? You never were saved, because your faith is in your works, and your ability to do what you set out to do. And not on the gift Of Christ based on his work of the cross. Your no different than the jews who cricified Christ, and the jews who continued to try to distort truth in the new church, which paul had to continually fight, by showing we are not saved by OUR WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (our good deeds, our aboayng gods command) but by HIS MERCY.

Wow so you are teaching that if you read the Bible, believe it, and think you must obey God, you will be doomed to hell for thinking you have to obey God to go to heaven.

But if hear the gospel and believe it, and know that you really do not have to obey God to be saved, you will inherit eternal life.

That is the most evil satan filled thing I have ever heard, coming from one who claims to believe and fear God.

Your trying to earn salvation. not receive it. you have not repented at all.

So what repentance is work on my part, what does that matter?
See here you go again, what do you believe?

Why, you have yet to answer my questions about hebrews, you keep going off on tangents which has nothing to do with hebrews.

wait but it does. I used Hebrews ch. 10 to prove a Chrisitan can fall and not be saved depending on what they do(works).
You said no, Hebrews was not written to the church.
I proved it is written to the chuch, now you it has nothing to do with what we are discussing?

He is telling this to people who trying to go back under sacrificial system of law. These people believe that when they sinned, they could not be forgiven unless an animal was sacrificed. so they could go on and do whatever sin they wanted. all they have to do is sacrifice and animal and they were forgiven. This is what is meant by "no more sacrifice" as the author said, the blood of bulls anf goats never took away sin, so if this is how your trying to be made right with God. your on a losing trip.

Lol, "He is telling this to people".
Yes people who already Christians in the church.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1. "if we" self inclusive
2. Sin willfully"
3. There remains" present tense - the sacrifice "remaining" can only be of Chirst, it is the only sacrifice that can wash away sin - hence "the knowlege of the truth"

Again what if they did not sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth? would that mean animal sacrice for sin would be vailid?????

most of the book of hebrews is based on this concept. of people losing salvation when they sinned. so an animal has to be sacrificed for them to be forgiven again. So if you go on sinning willfully and expect an animal being sacrificed to allow God to forgive you, your screwed.

That is too funny you go that far to try twist this passage. Dude this passage is easy, stop it.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Notice the wording.

1. But you
2. To the church
3. To Jesus
4. To the sprinking of blood

Was he writing it to Jesus, and to the blood of sprinkling also? There is a reason it is called hebrews, it was a letter to the hebrews who were trying to reinstill the law into the things of the church. Sorry if I refuse to twist Gods word to support my belief.

No it was to refute the error of false teachers among them, they already knew the truth, yet the writer is reinforcign the truth.
Before I prove that to you, I just want to say, this is the most pathetic attempt you have made to hold to your view. You have just shown me no matter what the Bible says, you are more concerned with not being wrong pubilicy. That is evil.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is something I should not have to explain to you, for the sake of others I will:

Bold print indicates everytihng the Hebrews have come to in being Christians.

they have come:
1. to mount Sion
2. to the city of the living God
3. to the general assembly of the first born
4. to the judge of all the earth
5. to to the spritits of just men made perfect
6. to Jesus the medieatior
7.to the new covenant

they came "to" all this because they trusted God and were made Christians.
Yes they were Hebrews, Jews, what is you point? Do you think that none of the Jews converted to Christ?

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

 

[feedm3]

Why do you continue to twist things?

We are talking about james. Are you ever going to admit james is talking to people who are hearers and not doers? who have NO works. or are we going to keep going around in circles?

James is not talking to people who are not doers. Read chapter 1.
He is warning them of those who are not doers, and showing them they are deceived in thinking they have salvation.
He is proving that all Christians MUST perform works (obedience) or they have dead faith, in which they will not be saved.
If you consider baptism a work, then you are saved while still in your sins according to Acts 22:16.
That is plain.

James audience was licentious believers. people who had mere belief but no faith. He was not talking to people who were trying to work to earn salvation.

That is pure assumption as he does not accuse them of doing such things but warning them not to.
This was written to Christians, if what you say is true, then it was written to non-Christians. That being the first letter we have addressed to non-Christians.

Pauls audience was different, he spoke to legalistic people trying to add works to grace. that is why they appear to be saying different things, but they do not. They are saying the same.

Paul did not speak of anyone if your referring to Eph 2: He warned them as well not to think they deserved God's grace.
Again did not tell them that they did not have to obey God.
In fact the Eph tells us the opposite.

Again. James did not say if you have a few works. or not enough work, your faith is dead. He is saying if you have zero works. Thus again. your interpretation that some work is required does not even fit james model.

Some work? I said we must obey God in all areas to the best of our ability.
James did not need to say how many works we can forsake before its counted as zero faith.


No, they are not saved because of one of two reasons.

1. according to james, they had zero faith. proven by the fact they had no works. (licentious)
2. According to paul they believed in a different gospel. and tried to add works to grace. thus there faith is not in the work of Christ. but their own works. (legalistic)

neither person had faith in Christ. thus works are not the issue. lack of faith was. One did works. but in order to earn salvation. one did not do any works, because they did not have faith.



No. I am saying they are not saved because they did not have faith period. your trying to twist what I am saying.

If we are talking in the context of james, they will have no works.

If we are talking in the context of paul. they will do works (like get baptized, try to be good take communion, go to church or whatever work it is) but will not be saved because they might have done these things in Gods name, But for the wrong reason (they tried to earn a gift) and as Jesus said he will say, "depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU.

lol, so those who think "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" is literal and a command we must all do,
And think that because the early church took the Lord's supper upon the first day of the week, we should also do it in that manner,
And think because Heb 10:25 says not "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" that we should go to church as obedience to God,
and think that because Heb 5:9 says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all the obey" that we should really obey,
They are doomed and Christ never knew us, foolish people who though they MUST obey God?

But if I know I do not really have to be baptized, take communion, assemble with brethren, or obey despite the scriptures, I will be saved because my trust is in God and not man.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
You continue to amaze me.
You have NO FEAR .

Anyway, it's wed, almost time for me to assemble with my brethren, I will be gone for a while, or maybe I should not, because if I feel I am doing this in obedience to God, I am sinning by going to worship God.
Wow.
You need to read Jam 3:1 - its below in my sig.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

thank you


Once again you show how unfamiliar you are with the Bible, Old and New Testaments:

NOw you are trying to say there was no law at all for Abraham? Seriously?
Abraham was under the patriarchal law system.
It was done away with the Mosiacial Law given on mount Sinai.
In fact what do you think the those in the book Genesis just did what they wanted to?
They a sacrificial ritual, they laws pertaining to murder, in fact so many laws I could not list them here.
What in the world are talking about, are we reading the same book?
If there was no law, there was no sin.

"Sin is transgression of the Law" I Jn 3:4
In fact was Abraham circumcised ever at all?

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Maybe you should study more.

Abraham was not saved by obeying a patriarchal law. From moses to Christ. no one was saved by obeying the law of moses. and from Christ till today, no one is saved by obeying the new testamnt law. thus your whole argument is fruitless.

Again that is the point that Paul is making in Hebrews.
That if we could only be saved through the works of the law, then Abraham would not have been saved seeing he is before the law.
Go read Romans again please, it's all there in the text, all you have to read it.

You mean like this?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Notice here. Paul is talking about ALL TIME SINCE CREATION. BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN! This includes the time of Abraham. Abraham chose not to be foolish, and took what God showed, and believed, and because of it, he was saved. NO ONE HAS EXCUSE. do you understand what that means? No one since creation. LONG before the law was given!

I know there are not meritorious works that can save us, I know that because of Eph 2, And know that we cannot be saved by the works of the thanks to Romans and Hebrews, But I do know that obedience is essential to our salvation because of James, and Hebrews, You wont acknowledge the context which defines the works for us.
We are under the "Law of Christ", we are to keep "our WORK of faith" .

James?? you mean zero works = zero salvation?

Hebrews? You mean we can't lose salvation, because if we could fall away (which is impossible) we could never be renewed? And saying one could fall away puts Christ to open shame.

Wow so you are teaching that if you read the Bible, believe it, and think you must obey God, you will be doomed to hell for thinking you have to obey God to go to heaven.

That is what the bible teaches. To say you must obay God is to put yourself under law. Plain and simple.

But if hear the gospel and believe it, and know that you really do not have to obey God to be saved, you will inherit eternal life.

lol. again you twist things. Your arguing against the licentious. the same people James fought against. And if that were our topic. I would agree with you 100 %, because I would fight a licentious gospel as hard as I fight a legalistic gospel. The thing is, there are very few licentious people I know who teach this.

A person who is truly saved (has faith) would not even think of not obeying. why? Because they know they are guilty, and they know God wants them to change. and they will change out of gratitude for what God did for them.

That is the most evil satan filled thing I have ever heard, coming from one who claims to believe and fear God.
So what repentance is work on my part, what does that matter?
See here you go again, what do you believe?

You can't understand what I believe, because your one minded. You think I believe in a licentious gospel. and you can't let go of it.

wait but it does. I used Hebrews ch. 10 to prove a Chrisitan can fall and not be saved depending on what they do(works).
You said no, Hebrews was not written to the church.
I proved it is written to the chuch, now you it has nothing to do with what we are discussing?

Hebrews was written to jewish (hebrew) Christians. and refuting what other jews were doing. Trying to add law to grace. You can't see this. that is your problem.

Lol, "He is telling this to people".
Yes people who already Christians in the church.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1. "if we" self inclusive
2. Sin willfully"
3. There remains" present tense - the sacrifice "remaining" can only be of Chirst, it is the only sacrifice that can wash away sin - hence "the knowlege of the truth"

WRONG. They were trying animal sacrifice. That is the context. Hebrews 12 says it is impossible to fall away if we are saved. why are you trying to crucify CXhrist again and put him to open shame??

Again what if they did not sin willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth? would that mean animal sacrice for sin would be vailid?????
That is too funny you go that far to try twist this passage. Dude this passage is easy, stop it.

The things of God are foolishness. You think it is easy. It is not as easy as you want it to be. It is NOT saying what you are saying, period!

No it was to refute the error of false teachers among them, they already knew the truth, yet the writer is reinforcign the truth.

yeah he is, if your trying animal sacrifice top seek forgiveness and sin willingly. Your wasting your time. Why do you thinki the author went over and over about animal sacrifice?

Before I prove that to you, I just want to say, this is the most pathetic attempt you have made to hold to your view. You have just shown me no matter what the Bible says, you are more concerned with not being wrong pubilicy. That is evil.

Yet you have not proven me wrong. You assume you are right. I guess that makes you evil?>

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is something I should not have to explain to you, for the sake of others I will:

Bold print indicates everytihng the Hebrews have come to in being Christians.

they have come:
1. to mount Sion
2. to the city of the living God
3. to the general assembly of the first born
4. to the judge of all the earth
5. to to the spritits of just men made perfect
6. to Jesus the medieatior
7.to the new covenant

they came "to" all this because they trusted God and were made Christians.
Yes they were Hebrews, Jews, what is you point? Do you think that none of the Jews converted to Christ?

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

For the sake of others?

You said that since it said to the church it was written to them. It also said it was written to Christ and to the sprinkling of blood. I used yourt example and reasoning. and it is not ok?? That is called hypocracy.

ps.. why do you never respond to the james vs paul arguments? is it because you know you have no argument against what I said?

 

[feedm3]

Abraham was not saved by obeying a patriarchal law. From moses to Christ. no one was saved by obeying the law of moses. and from Christ till today, no one is saved by obeying the new testamnt law. thus your whole argument is fruitless.

Rom_6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom_10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Gal_3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal_5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Yea we will not be saved if we believe we must obey,
your argument is just plain foolishness.
Thats why you keep posting acting as if you have not already been proven wrong, condtridiced yourself, and have shown the inconsisenty in your argument.


You mean like this?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Notice here. Paul is talking about ALL TIME SINCE CREATION. BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN! This includes the time of Abraham. Abraham chose not to be foolish, and took what God showed, and believed, and because of it, he was saved. NO ONE HAS EXCUSE. do you understand what that means? No one since creation. LONG before the law was given!

Yes even those with out law have knowledge of a creator by the the things that are made, so how much more shall we not have an excuse who have the written word.

James?? you mean zero works = zero salvation?

Any works that we willfully disobey, disobedience is sin, your are sinning in what you are teaching.

That is what the bible teaches. To say you must obay God is to put yourself under law. Plain and simple.

Are you under the law of Christ or not? simple question.

lol. again you twist things. Your arguing against the licentious. the same people James fought against. And if that were our topic. I would agree with you 100 %, because I would fight a licentious gospel as hard as I fight a legalistic gospel. The thing is, there are very few licentious people I know who teach this.

A person who is truly saved (has faith) would not even think of not obeying. why? Because they know they are guilty, and they know God wants them to change. and they will change out of gratitude for what God did for them.

Ok, well if you beleive that true faith is seen by works, and no works is dead faith, and that God saves one based on his knowledge of thier working future, you believe in a works salvation.

Hebrews was written to jewish (hebrew) Christians. and refuting what other jews were doing. Trying to add law to grace. You can't see this. that is your problem.

Here is a perfect example of your flip flopping. How can the be Jewish "Christians" if they are not a member of Christ's church?
You said Hebrews was not written to the church, but now you say it was written to Christians.
Please explain to me how that can be?
I am not going to overlook your wishy washy statements anymore, please tells me how someone can write a group of Christians, but not be writing the church.

The things of God are foolishness. You think it is easy. It is not as easy as you want it to be. It is NOT saying what you are saying, period!

What do you mean "the things of god are foolishness"?

It is easy to understand, it's when the messengers of Satan come and "vain words and fair speeches decieve the hearts of the simple".
You interpretation are a perfect example of this in action.

yeah he is, if your trying animal sacrifice top seek forgiveness and sin willingly. Your wasting your time. Why do you thinki the author went over and over about animal sacrifice?

Yet "forsaking the assembly" was the sin he was mentioning, read the previous verse.

In fact none of them were trying to sacrifice animals, they were Christians.
In fact he showing them in Ch. 10 how the law was a "shadow" of the thing to come in the NT.
This does not mean any of them were trying to use animal sacrifice.
COntext COntext Context

For the sake of others?

You said that since it said to the church it was written to them. It also said it was written to Christ and to the sprinkling of blood. I used yourt example and reasoning. and it is not ok?? That is called hypocracy.

ps.. why do you never respond to the james vs paul arguments? is it because you know you have no argument against what I said?

Man what are you saying, was Hebrews written to the church or not?
Im sick of the flip flop, above you say written to Christians, before you not written to the church but those under the law??????

I have responded to James and Paul, multiple times, I even in an earlier post broke down the entire ch.2 of Eph, you just dont care, you are mad because I have cornered you, you have no way out and you believe in a works salvation. This angers you so you keep posting hoping no one will notice you have been shut down in you arguments.