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F
Ok then please explain these passages to me that were written to Christians:[/QUOTE]
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
He said "if WE sin willfully" meaning himself and other Christians who read this epistle, or else he was not a child of God according to what your saying.
How can those who sin willfully in the church, still be His children if the there remains no more sacrifice for their sins?
Clearly this passage shows us that if we do not repent of our sins we will be cut off from God:
This is also what Paul warned the church at Rome:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Again written to Chirstians.
And In Hebrews again:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
1. How can one who has "been enlightened", tasted of the heavenly gift, a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" not be a child of God.
2. can sinners, those who are outside of Christ fit in this description?
3. This is a warning just like the other passages not to sin, to maintain "good works" as you said.
thats your choice not to believe, but I am only saying what the Bible says concerning this subject.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
He said "if WE sin willfully" meaning himself and other Christians who read this epistle, or else he was not a child of God according to what your saying.
How can those who sin willfully in the church, still be His children if the there remains no more sacrifice for their sins?
Clearly this passage shows us that if we do not repent of our sins we will be cut off from God:
This is also what Paul warned the church at Rome:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Again written to Chirstians.
And In Hebrews again:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
1. How can one who has "been enlightened", tasted of the heavenly gift, a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" not be a child of God.
2. can sinners, those who are outside of Christ fit in this description?
3. This is a warning just like the other passages not to sin, to maintain "good works" as you said.
thats your choice not to believe, but I am only saying what the Bible says concerning this subject.
E
You have it backwards. One can not be quickened until their sin is removed. Thus they can not be justified until they are made clean. And then they are given the spirit.
We are saved by faith, not works. we are justified by faith not works. It is our faith in GODS WORK which saves us. Faith is not a work. because you do not do anything to do it, nore can you take any credit for it. No one can boast of having faith in someone else' work. all they can do is praise the person who did the work they trusted.
We are saved by faith, not works. we are justified by faith not works. It is our faith in GODS WORK which saves us. Faith is not a work. because you do not do anything to do it, nore can you take any credit for it. No one can boast of having faith in someone else' work. all they can do is praise the person who did the work they trusted.
E
he does not say BECAUSE they obey him. He says UNTO those who obey him.
As james said, faith without work is dead. As Paul said in rom 4. Abraham was not saved because he did the works of Obeying God, for if he was, abraham would have something to boast about. he was saved because he believed (trusted or had faith) in God. His work of obeying God (which was not perfect in the least) was a byproduct of his faith, which saved him.
As james said, faith without work is dead. As Paul said in rom 4. Abraham was not saved because he did the works of Obeying God, for if he was, abraham would have something to boast about. he was saved because he believed (trusted or had faith) in God. His work of obeying God (which was not perfect in the least) was a byproduct of his faith, which saved him.
E
Lets start in Hebrews, what is the context of Hebrews? Who was the letter written to, and what error of doctrine was it fighting? If we find this, then we can start discussing the issues. It is called context.
as for romans. The context was gentile vs jew. God did not spare the jew, who where his chosen. if he did not spare the jew. he will not spare the gentile church either, if they turn from him. The context in no way is talking about individual people.
as for romans. The context was gentile vs jew. God did not spare the jew, who where his chosen. if he did not spare the jew. he will not spare the gentile church either, if they turn from him. The context in no way is talking about individual people.
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F
Context? You ignore all context, remember in Romans when you said the works being disscussed were not the law of Moses? Now you want context? lol
Sure - Hebrews Context"
1. the superiority of Christ above the angels, above the law with a better covenant, above the physical High priest as Christ is now ours.
ch. 10 - the law was only a shawdow of things to come - Christ and the church. theres the context for you.
now do you think this book only applies to us if we are under or trying to be under the law of Moses?
Im glad you learnded the word "context" I hope you start appling it, you should start in Eph 2:
written to Chrisitans, fighting the error of trying to hold to the law, what the law was for and convicting them to grow up in Chirst. there you go more context.
So are you saying that if Paul needed to tell the individual people (people are what make up the church) what not to do, he needed to write them each individually?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
So this passage means if we sin collectively as a whole, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.?So if members in a local congregation are sinning willfully they are ok as long as the entire church is not doing it?
How many members have to be sinning before it is counted as the entire church?
Is all of them?
SO if you have a congregation of 50 and 48 of them are sinning willfully, it is ok because of the two that are remaining faithful?
Again even you can see the foolishness in your arguments.
These words are written to an entire church, warning every member not to sin willfully.
Sure - Hebrews Context"
1. the superiority of Christ above the angels, above the law with a better covenant, above the physical High priest as Christ is now ours.
ch. 10 - the law was only a shawdow of things to come - Christ and the church. theres the context for you.
now do you think this book only applies to us if we are under or trying to be under the law of Moses?
Im glad you learnded the word "context" I hope you start appling it, you should start in Eph 2:
written to Chrisitans, fighting the error of trying to hold to the law, what the law was for and convicting them to grow up in Chirst. there you go more context.
So are you saying that if Paul needed to tell the individual people (people are what make up the church) what not to do, he needed to write them each individually?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
So this passage means if we sin collectively as a whole, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.?So if members in a local congregation are sinning willfully they are ok as long as the entire church is not doing it?
How many members have to be sinning before it is counted as the entire church?
Is all of them?
SO if you have a congregation of 50 and 48 of them are sinning willfully, it is ok because of the two that are remaining faithful?
Again even you can see the foolishness in your arguments.
These words are written to an entire church, warning every member not to sin willfully.
E
Nice start. Now go further. Who was it written to and why? Why did it have to be written?
Oh you mean eph 2. as in a letter to the gentiles?
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
where is the law? The gentiles did not have the law (although God said in rom 1 it was planted in their hearts, so that they know they are guilty) Why did paul said "NOT OF OURSELVES" If he did not mean it.
And you scream at me ignoring context??
And you are COMPLETELY IGNORING CONTEXT. Hebrews was not written to the church, It was written to jews (Hebrews) still trying to follow law. So what sacrifice is he talking about. why did he even mention sacrifice? Why were the jews supposed to sacrifice in the first place. what was the purpose according to the law?
Oh you mean eph 2. as in a letter to the gentiles?
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
where is the law? The gentiles did not have the law (although God said in rom 1 it was planted in their hearts, so that they know they are guilty) Why did paul said "NOT OF OURSELVES" If he did not mean it.
And you scream at me ignoring context??
And you are COMPLETELY IGNORING CONTEXT. Hebrews was not written to the church, It was written to jews (Hebrews) still trying to follow law. So what sacrifice is he talking about. why did he even mention sacrifice? Why were the jews supposed to sacrifice in the first place. what was the purpose according to the law?
F
So what if Abraham did NOT do the works that followed his belief? You say he would have had dead faith, I agree.
So if it was BY HIS WORKS the proved his faith real and alive, how can you say works have nothing to do with salvation?
Your saying if you do good works (like obeying GOd) you have real faith, your saved, but if you do not do good works (as in obeying God) you have dead faith, so it is by works a man's faith is counted dead or alive?
It sounds to me you believe that Faith+good works is what saves us.
I believe God's grace(sending Christ ) + our believing He did so + obeying whatever is commanded is what we must do to be saved. We cannot boast of anything because there is nothing we did to deserve God's grace, but that does not mean there is nothing we can do to make that grace effective upon our souls.
"Grace reigns through righteousness" Rom 5:21
"obedience is unto righteousness" - Rom 6:16
We must act upon the commands of God.
We are not saved by works alone, we are not saved by faith alone, we are not saved by grace alone, but all working together.
So if it was BY HIS WORKS the proved his faith real and alive, how can you say works have nothing to do with salvation?
Your saying if you do good works (like obeying GOd) you have real faith, your saved, but if you do not do good works (as in obeying God) you have dead faith, so it is by works a man's faith is counted dead or alive?
It sounds to me you believe that Faith+good works is what saves us.
I believe God's grace(sending Christ ) + our believing He did so + obeying whatever is commanded is what we must do to be saved. We cannot boast of anything because there is nothing we did to deserve God's grace, but that does not mean there is nothing we can do to make that grace effective upon our souls.
"Grace reigns through righteousness" Rom 5:21
"obedience is unto righteousness" - Rom 6:16
We must act upon the commands of God.
We are not saved by works alone, we are not saved by faith alone, we are not saved by grace alone, but all working together.
F
wow I see why you have such a hart understanding the BIble - Hebrews was written to the church; and for the purpose of reassuring them not to follow the law:
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
So what sacrifice is he talking about. why did he even mention sacrifice? Why were the jews supposed to sacrifice in the first place. what was the purpose according to the law?[/quote]
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
and last but not least:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Talk about ignoring context, how can you even explain context of a book you have no idea of who is being written to?
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
So what sacrifice is he talking about. why did he even mention sacrifice? Why were the jews supposed to sacrifice in the first place. what was the purpose according to the law?[/quote]
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
and last but not least:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Talk about ignoring context, how can you even explain context of a book you have no idea of who is being written to?
E
Oh because GOD SAID SO!
That is a nice way to twist it around, and make it appear as something I am not saying.
If you do trust God. you will do what he asks. If you do not trust God. you won.t It is the faith that saves you before you even did one thing. God does not say, if you have faith in me great. Now go do this and that, and we will see about saving you. He says if you believe in me, you will be saved.
E
Gentiles never followed law. And they never followed the sacrificial system or the priest. which is what the author of hebrews spoke of all throughout his book.
When he mentions sacrifice, he means sacrifice of the law (animal sacrifice) are you going to ignore this fact?
now do you want to argue. or discuss the real issue?
F
Not according to what you just said, " he was saved because he believed (trusted or had faith) in God. His work of obeying God (which was not perfect in the least) was a byproduct of his faith, which saved him."
So I ask what if he never manifested this "byproduct" of his faith in which you said "saved him"
There is nothing being twisted here, these are your words.
Then I can imply if he was saved by faith+byproduct then faith w/o byproduct means NOT saved.
No that is exactly what you just said, you are contradicting yourself.
So then I am saved before I prove I trust God.
So what those who do not trust God, do not "do what he says" and never were saved according to your view.
Then again it is still by works that we show if we trust God, therefore still faith+works, thats exactly what your saying.
So I ask what if he never manifested this "byproduct" of his faith in which you said "saved him"
There is nothing being twisted here, these are your words.
Then I can imply if he was saved by faith+byproduct then faith w/o byproduct means NOT saved.
No that is exactly what you just said, you are contradicting yourself.
So then I am saved before I prove I trust God.
So what those who do not trust God, do not "do what he says" and never were saved according to your view.
Then again it is still by works that we show if we trust God, therefore still faith+works, thats exactly what your saying.
F
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
He said "if WE sin willfully" meaning himself and other Christians who read this epistle, or else he was not a child of God according to what your saying.
How can those who sin willfully in the church, still be His children if the there remains no more sacrifice for their sins?
Clearly this passage shows us that if we do not repent of our sins we will be cut off from God:
This is also what Paul warned the church at Rome:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Again written to Chirstians.
And In Hebrews again:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
1. How can one who has "been enlightened", tasted of the heavenly gift, a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" not be a child of God.
2. can sinners, those who are outside of Christ fit in this description?
3. This is a warning just like the other passages not to sin, to maintain "good works" as you said.
thats your choice not to believe, but I am only saying what the Bible says concerning this subject.[/quote]Christ died for the sins of those that God Gave him and all of them he will raise up at the last day without the loss of one. Christ died for their sins one time and there will be no more sacrifice for their sins Rom 6:9-10. 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself. I am assuming that you think that you are a child of God, when you sin, don't you sin willingly. I think that all of God's children do sin at times and sin willingly due to their own lusts of the flesh James 1:14. Once you are born of God, you may sometimes be a disobedient child, nevertheless you are still a child of God. Thats why God chastens his children.
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
He said "if WE sin willfully" meaning himself and other Christians who read this epistle, or else he was not a child of God according to what your saying.
How can those who sin willfully in the church, still be His children if the there remains no more sacrifice for their sins?
Clearly this passage shows us that if we do not repent of our sins we will be cut off from God:
This is also what Paul warned the church at Rome:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Again written to Chirstians.
And In Hebrews again:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
1. How can one who has "been enlightened", tasted of the heavenly gift, a "partaker of the Holy Ghost" not be a child of God.
2. can sinners, those who are outside of Christ fit in this description?
3. This is a warning just like the other passages not to sin, to maintain "good works" as you said.
thats your choice not to believe, but I am only saying what the Bible says concerning this subject.[/quote]Christ died for the sins of those that God Gave him and all of them he will raise up at the last day without the loss of one. Christ died for their sins one time and there will be no more sacrifice for their sins Rom 6:9-10. 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself. I am assuming that you think that you are a child of God, when you sin, don't you sin willingly. I think that all of God's children do sin at times and sin willingly due to their own lusts of the flesh James 1:14. Once you are born of God, you may sometimes be a disobedient child, nevertheless you are still a child of God. Thats why God chastens his children.
F
Before any of us were quickened we were but natural beings having no righteousness. The natural man does not have spiritual faith. He will not choose to serve a spiritual God. He cannot descern spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him.1 Cor 2:14. God quickens us by putting his Spirit within us and faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5. I'm afraid that you have the cart before the horse. Eph 2:1-5 may enlighten you.
F
the Idea of sinning willfully is living a life in sin after coming to the knowledge of the turth. We as Chirsitans sometimes fall short, yet we repent, we mourn that sin that separted us from God, we confess ask for forgiveness and endure the tempatations we are faced with, this is part of repentance.
If we continue in sin, we have abolished the effect of the sacrifice for our sins and will be accountable for them.
Now that being said, we can fall from grace, we can be cut off, everyone who hears the gospel has a choice to become the sons of God or not.
If we continue in sin, we have abolished the effect of the sacrifice for our sins and will be accountable for them.
Now that being said, we can fall from grace, we can be cut off, everyone who hears the gospel has a choice to become the sons of God or not.