Who are the sons of God?

notIbutChrist · Oct 22, 2011

First of all I do believe the unrighteous dead do go to Hell, secondly I wasn't saying that Sodom and Gomorrah were held in chains but that the like manner were cities around Sodom and Gomorrah were being sexually deviant.

AnandaHya · Oct 22, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Ok I've been reading Genesis and trying to understand the distinction between sons of men and sons of God.

I never thought of sons of God as being human before. most people I know personally think they refer to angels and they cite the passages in Job, but we know in the new testament that children of God refers to those who do WILL of GOD.

therefore have Angels been referred to as the children of God?

some say angel just means messenger therefore does not mean the whole heavenly beings that most people associate them with

I remember reading the passage where Peter asked Jesus if He wanted them to call fire on the cities who had rejected His message. therefore if Peter could have the power to do this, were the "ANGELs' sent to Lot really human messengers and not heavenly beings?

I was reading Genesis 10 and verse 5 kind of jumped out. I noticed that the lineages that were listed only included Japheth and then verse 5 and they went to list the children of Ham who was cursed by Noah and highlighted Nimrod who built an empire that encompassed the lands of Shinar and Babel. that the sons of men refers to the children of Ham who built the tower of Babel and dwelt in the land of Shinar or later referred to as Babylon.

then Genesis 11 v. 10 goes into the genealogy of Shem all the way to Abram, but it does not say they are the children of God or men.

what is born of flesh is flesh and not of God. only those who are born of Spirit are of God. So the question is did any of the OT people become born of the Spirit of God? were any of them considered children of God or were they servants in bondage to the covenant?

then there are questions about what are all the covenants made with God in the OT.

God placed the rainbow as a covenant not just with mankind but ALL living creatures NOT to flood the Earth again as a way to destroy all flesh. that day and night would always happen as well as the growing seasons, etc. that is the only covenant I find with Noah, but then we have men talking about other things added to the covenant with Noah that just isn't in the Bible.

I don't know, Abiding can I have a cookie now?

Abiding · Oct 22, 2011

willfollowsGod · Oct 22, 2011

I understand many people hold to the sons of Seth and Cain view. I one time wanted to hold to that, not anymore. I am staying with that the sons of God were angels in the OT and only in the OT book of Joel does "sons of the Living God mean humans. I have examined these verses and the other verses as well. Also if it were sons of Seth and daughters of Cain, wouldn't those names appear in the book of Jude and other New Testament books? I heard about the angel view from Chuck Missler, I then examined the verses for myself and looked at it many ways none of them made sense. But when I looked at it through the angel view, it was like a veil had been lifted from my eyes and I could see clearly. Also, it says angels can't procreate in heaven in that verse cited somewhere in Matthew. But nowhere does it say that these fallen angels couldn't have procreated "outside" of heaven. Of course they can't procreate in heaven, it is clean, pure, and God's light is there. Thank you for your understanding.

LovingtheLord · Oct 22, 2011

notIbutChrist said:

Not so brother,

1 Corinth 15
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

From this it is evident the 'strange flesh' being reffered to is not of 'human'.

Laodicea · Oct 22, 2011

There is another text on this subject with similar wording
Daniel 2:43
(43) And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

For those who believe that sons of God are angels does that mean it will happen again? Or is it referring to something else?
Isaiah 64:8
(8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The clay is a reference to the church so we have the church mingling with those who do not follow God.
Exodus 34:14-16
(14) For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
(15) Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
(16) And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

God gave instruction for God's people not to marry people who do not worship God, Why? Because they will become like them, that is what happened before the flood that is why they became wicked. To say that the sons of God were angels is to miss the point of the danger of intermarriage with people who do not worship God. Not just intermarriage but, bringing the world into the church.

Laodicea · Oct 22, 2011

LovingtheLord said:

I have to disagree with you look at these texts
Genesis 19:5
(5) And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Genesis 4:25
(25) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

So do you understand what they were saying when they wanted to know the men? We must let the Bible speak we cannot put our thoughts into it.

Muirnin · Oct 22, 2011

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. " (Genesis 6:4)

The word "giants" means the following, from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible #5303:

nephiyl (nefeel'); or nephil (nefeel'); from 5307; which means properly a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant.

The ISBE Encyclopedia states:

NEPHILIM: This word, translated "giants" in the King James Version, but retained in the Revised Version (British and American), is found in two passages of the Old Testament one in (Genesis 6:4), relating to the antediluvians; the other in (Numbers 13:33), relating to the sons of Anak in Canaan.

In the former place the Nephilim are not necessarily to be identified with the children said to be borne "the daughters of men" to "the sons of God" (verses 2, 4); indeed, they seem to be distinguished from the latter as upon the earth before this unholy commingling took place). But it is not easy to be certain as to the interpretation of this strange passage. In the second case they clearly represent men of gigantic stature, in comparison with whom the Israelites felt as if they were "grasshoppers." This agrees with (Genesis 6:4), "the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown." (from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

"Some people think that Genesis 6:4 refers to fallen angels intermarrying with human women and having children. However:

"'In the resurrection, therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all had her.' But Jesus answered them, 'You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.' " (Matthew 22:28-30, RSV)

So Christ states clearly that those who attain the resurrection of life will not marry, but will be like the angels, who also have not been given the gift of marriage."

Just my two cents on the issue based on the research I've done to date.

Warrior777 · Oct 22, 2011

Laodicea said:

Why are you just repeating what I just said to you, and then without bringing any evidence for your claim, just doing yourself what you just told me ?! So I guess this means you just have nothing constructive to add anymore, ok well... I have said and proofed everything and explained everything that I said, throughout scripture, with original texts and various translations , the way it is supposed to be done, but have not received one constructive answer from you or no answer at all when I asked you a direct question, sorry but that's all I can do here. This is not for the sake of an argument but to educate and share with people to look more closely of what they believe and why. You can believe whatever you want of course, but not not knowing the truth behind a matter can hurt you.
It says to KNOW your enemy. All I want to do is pass on this info to help others but they have to want to.
It's a touchy subject like so many, but for too long and by too far so many churches (most of them) have been teaching false doctrine or in turn erroneously kept teaching what they heard others say and at times just leave out important issues and info and even part of the gospel to appease their people.
It's time to change that, step by step. Who has ears to hear, let them hear!

AnandaHya · Oct 22, 2011

willfollowsGod said:

chuck missler?

as in this one?

Koinonia House - The Ministry of Chuck and Nancy Missler

mmmm he would be one of the reason I would be inclined NOT to endorse the angels as Sons of God concept.

these Bible verses also make me think it is not true as well.

It says Angels are ministering spirits do spirits have bodies, can they reproduce?

If they did in the past what keeps them from doing it again now in the present or in the future? Are there abominations walking amongst us now?

I am inclined to believe the angel as sons of God are a deception being put forth to the world mainly because of the words I will highlight in this text among others.

1. if God has never called any of the angels His Son then who really are the Sons of God being referred to in the OT?

Hebrews 1

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]

And again:

“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]

7 And of the angels He says:

“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]

8 But to the Son He says:

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]

10 And:

“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

AnandaHya · Oct 22, 2011

Warrior777 said:

I agree that discernment is needed but I don't agree with your conclusion concerning the scriptures posted. It still lacks cohesive reasoning with other scriptures also put forth. I'm still studying it all but I am more inclined to believe that the Son of God do not refer to heavenly beings but earthly ones.

Warrior777 · Oct 22, 2011

willfollowsGod said:

Thank you, you just answered part of my question to Laodicea, the angels could do that since they left their proper domain, abode. We know that angels can take on human form on earth through many scriptures, but there is no need for that in heaven. That's why Jesus said "the angels in heaven" and not just "the angels".

In the NT one can only become a son of God or children of God if you are "born again" of the spirit, then God has directly created you (like with Adam and the angels) and you are of his offspring (in spirit!), otherwise if not then they are the sons of the devil!'

I think you meant the book of Hosea there. In that scripture it prophesies about a future event into the NT. Paul picks that up in Rom 9:26 when he talks about that promise to the gentiles to become the children (or sons )of God. That then would mean re-born out of spirit...

Warrior777 · Oct 22, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Lacks cohesive reasoning? Did you read all my posts? I compared scriptures with scriptures and original texts and meanings and diverse translations of ALL the scriptures with that topic phrase and took several paragraphs to explain and reason of why it is like that? You must have missed something?!

It all comes together if you just read it with open eyes and heart to understand and maybe throw out some thinking blockages of traditional believes, they can hold people back from not seeing the true meaning many times.
Here is another clue for you, why did God destroy the whole earth and just saved Noah and his family to begin with? I actually answered that, if you want to go back and reread...

AnandaHya · Oct 22, 2011

Warrior777 said:

i've read them all and still find them lacking. if you would elaborate that would be nice. if you have any websites and sermons, I would appreciate it if you do not have the time to lay it all out in your own words. I'm currently researching the hebrew roots movement but I can add theological concepts of who the sons of God are into the mix of sermon reviews and websites to listen to and read over when I get a chance.

don't have a clue about what traditional believers believe and if you read my posts you would understand I am looking at all of this objectively in that most of the people I know actually "traditionally" hold your view of those scriptures and I'm learning both sides of the argument since my personal "tradition" does not hold either not being raised Christian I do not have a bias for either position on the matter

but a caution on the proponents of the angel theory because as I have seen so far, most are Christian Zion dominionist and teach other false spiritual warfare and prophecy doctrines.

therefore it would make me more cautious to accept their theology on the matter. on the other hand I do not completely understand the position of the Sons of God being the descendants of Seth either.

Warrior777 · Oct 23, 2011

AnandaHya said:

I don't know how much more you want me to elaborate. I don't want to write a doctorate here about this. I think I gave enough information and explanation for someone to understand and see the proof in this, or take it from there and take these evidences and research further with it if you are still not convinced.

Reading through your posts and Laodicea's shows that there is a lot of confusion about several things and sometimes contradictions in what is said and other things that do not line up with scriptures or errors. I can't answer everybody with a lexicon of written work, it's too much to get into all the details of what was said, why and how...

In a nutshell again: If you see "sons of God" in the OT, that means creatures that God directly created! They are his "sons" since He made them, not through women! There you have Adam, who is called "a son of God" in the NT but referring back to that time in the OT! There is the SON of GOD (Jesus) that was not created by man/woman either, just born through a woman, and God created him supernaturally in Mary's womb!
Like I said before, there are children of God now in the NT that are reborn of God so they can be now called sons and daughters of God, but it's spiritual only - not directly in the flesh, like with Adam or directly created like the angels, who start out as spiritual beings, but as we know from scripture (and you can research that easily) can manifest flesh, they can materialize (and no they do not come from Star Trek). e.g angels in Sodom and Gomorrah, Jacob wrestling with an Angel of the Lord (God Himself!), Angel appearing to Mary, then on the tomb, etc, etc...
Noah being the only one called out because he was perfect in his generations, meaning not diluted with angelic interference as per Gen 6:4, why would God destroy the earth and only save 8? Not because of just sin, since there was plenty afterwards and that's why Jesus eventually came on the surface of the earth to take care of that! But if God would not have destroyed the earth with all the Nephilim in it, or half human beings, then eventually the entire human race would have been polluted in their generations, God needed to protect the SEED through which Jesus would be born. He needed to keep that line 100% human! not sinless!, everybody had sin one way or another, all had sin from Adam on, so that is not the reason.

Is that now coherent enough?

To your recent scripture about who God called HIS SON:
Yes of course he didn't say to any angel or to any human being "You are MY SON" I have begotten you!
Jesus was the "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" of God! God didn't call angles begotten sons, nor did He even call Adam his son but he called him "man"! The writers of the Bible called them sons. Paul called Adam the son of God, but God didn't. So for your scripture to make sense this is the only way to work! Has nothing to with the sons of God neither in the OT nor in the NT!

The sons of God mentioned in Job are angels also, you can see clearly that this is a scene set in heaven, where Satan is in front of the throne of God accusing. All the other angels where there and then satan among them. In Job 38 God is talking about the creation of the world - now there were no people yet, he is talking about each of His creations and how the angels rejoiced with Him.

Then you have the Bible translations that even put heavenly beings and angels right into the scripture!

So I don't know what more you want? Now I have summed it up, if that is still not enough, then you need to research this for yourself, this is the only way you can see this, and pray that God will open this up for you.

Also just because some people teach identical things on one issue as another group ,doesn't automatically make someone of the same persuasion or belief if they agree on a few or even most issues of that group!

Laodicea · Oct 23, 2011

Matthew 24:37-38
(37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

This verses says as in the days of Noah, Marrying and giving in marriage. So where do we see that in Noah's time?
Genesis 6:2
(2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

So since Jesus said 'as in the days of Noah' then do we see the same thing today angels marrying today? Or is it referring to something else? Or do we see people of God marrying people who do not follow God? Do we see the world coming into the church?

God instructed His people not to make marriages with people who do not follow God or they will turn them away
Deuteronomy 7:3-4
(3) Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
(4) For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
2 Corinthians 6:14
(14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

notIbutChrist · Oct 23, 2011

Personally, once someone starts claiming fallen angles interbred with humans, I find it hard to take anything else they say seriously

Consumed · Oct 23, 2011

Blessed are the peacemakers for they SHALL BE CALLED THE SONS OF GOD
spoken by Jesus - beatitudes - be attitudes

Laodicea · Oct 23, 2011

Warrior777 said:

People in the OT could be born again as well
1 Samuel 10:6
(6) And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
1 Samuel 10:9
(9) And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

AnandaHya · Oct 23, 2011

Consumed said:

such the peacemaker Consumed

Who are the sons of God?

notIbutChrist

Banned

AnandaHya

Guest

Abiding

Guest

willfollowsGod

Senior Member

LovingtheLord

Guest

Laodicea

Guest

Laodicea

Guest

Muirnin

Guest

Warrior777

Guest

AnandaHya

Guest

AnandaHya

Guest

Warrior777

Guest

Warrior777

Guest

AnandaHya

Guest

Warrior777

Guest

Laodicea

Guest

notIbutChrist

Banned

Consumed

Guest

Laodicea

Guest

AnandaHya

Guest