Why do Catholics break the Commandment about Idols?

[DeaconMike]

It says in the creed that through Him all things were made. Which part of the creed is wrong?

Dear tourist
The NicenecCreed reflects Col.
I believe in one lord Jesus Christ
Only begotten Son of God
Born of the Father before all the ages
God from God light from light
Homousious con substantial with the Father
Through him all things were made

 

[valiant]

Dear tourist
The NicenecCreed reflects Col.
I believe in one lord Jesus Christ
Only begotten Son of God
Born of the Father before all the ages
God from God light from light
Homousious con substantial with the Father
Through him all things were made

we agree on this, It is what you add to it that is wrong,

 

[valiant]

The SHORT answer is that Catholics don't!

“ R” Catholics Idolaters ?
by Parickt Miron
I’m a Catholic

There are a great many charges leveled against the Catholic Church on a all to frequent basis by non-Catholic - Christians and others as well. Often out of ignorance; not knowing the logic and foundation for what we hold to be the singular truth. It’s what they have been told, so it’s what they believe. Among the more common charges is that we Catholics are “idolaters,” and the question before us is it true? After all we do “pray to Mary, the Mother of God,” and to Angels and Saints. So it would seem that their at least might be some grounds to support these charges. And there is plenty of evidence of statues, stained-glass windows, prayer-cards, religious art that seems to add credence to the charge.

The answer rest is in the terminology used. In the charges leveled is the word “Worship,” As in Catholics “Worship Mary.” This is an incorrect understanding of Catholic Practice. Catholics; like non-Catholic-Christians hold to the fact that “Worship” is reserver3ed to God alone. So then; what is it that Catholics do, if it’s not “Worship?”

In the Book of Exodus, chapter Twenty we read this admonition: this command from God. “Exodus 20: And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.” "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

Well that certainly seems clear enough? But is it REALLY? … The most basic, inviolable, indeed; Infallible rule for understanding the Bible correctly [as God Himself intends], is that Never-Ever can one part of the Bible contradict another portion. Where this even the slightest possibility, the Bible would be worthless as a tool for teaching or learning ones Faith. When ever this appears to take place we can be certain that it is we; not the bible that is in error.

So my friends lets turn to the book of Numbers; the same God giving direction to the same Moses.Num.21:8 -9 “And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. And here is another example of God’s Command to Moses: from the Book of Exodus no-less. Exod.25: 18-22 “And you shall make two cherubim [ANGELS] of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. … Exod.26: 1 "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet stuff; with cherubim skillfully worked shall you make them.”

So what’s the deal here, we have God directing; actually commanding Moses to “MAKE and display IDOLS” to be used as God commands?

The explanation is in the CORRECT understanding of the term “Idols”. Go back and re-look at Exodus 20 and take note of the fact that God specifies “FALSE gods“; not just any images. What God prohibits is anything that is in competition to His God-Head. Images that lead one [or at least that is their intended purpose], are NOT prohibited because they are a means to a building a closer unity with God. It is the purpose of the image that determines if in fact it is an IDOL, or something that reminds us of heavenly things. Certainly Mary, the Saints, Angels all qualify as “holy things” that ought can, and ought to lead us in the direction of God; not towards any “false competing” gods. So statues, art, images of Saints and Mary are quite “OK” with God, as a means of gaining possible closer union with Him.

This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAILMARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.

“Hail Mary,
Full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are you among all women
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus
Holy Mary
Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]

Luke Chapter One
[SUP]26[/SUP] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth [SUP]27[/SUP] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. [SUP]28[/SUP] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women [SUP]29[/SUP] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [SUP]30[/SUP] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. [SUP]31[/SUP] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [SUP]32[/SUP] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever [SUP]33[/SUP] And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
[SUP]34[/SUP] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
[SUP]35[/SUP] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The final petition: “ Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death” is the reason Catholics pray to [actually THROUGH them] Mary and the Saints Our prayers ARE DIRECTED to God; BUT with the intercession, the HELP of Mary and the Saints who ADD their own prayers on-top of ours making them far more effective, and pleasing to God.

We call them “Intercessory Prayers.” Luke.18: 1 “And he [Jesus] told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. … Eph.6: 18 “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,”

As one can see, from reading the New Testament, Jesus Himself prayed often as did the Apostles. Prayer is lifting out minds and heats to God. So the fact that Catholics use reminders of those who have both “passed before us“; and PASSED the necessary steps required for ones salvations is a form of “VENERATION“, NOT “Worship,” which is RIGHTLY reserve red to God alone.

Therefore the charge against Catholics as Idolaters is blatantly FALSE, and unmerited.

God Bless you,
Patrick

it is worship described as veneration. kneeling before an image is impossible without worship the human heart being what it is. that is why God condemned it utterly,

the snake was 'looked at' from a distance. There was no danger of worship, They did not bow before it. When they did it was destroyed,

But even the veneration of humans is forbidden. No human can hear our prayers.

you turn them into demi-gods.

Mary was described as 'highly favoured' as are all Christians (eph 1.6)

 

[God4me]

Dear God 4e
Ok thst tells me you could not come up with any church fathers condemning infant baptism. The word baptizmo simply means to immerse. And indeed total immersion does bring out the meaning of the Sacrament. However it is not always practical or even possible. The jailor being baptized in the prison didn't have a river in the prison. When scripture states the Whole region was baptized archeology shows it would have been impossible to have the whole region at a river. What's more important is Scripture never states total immersion is neccessary. Besides if bsptism dousnt save why would you even care?
What you wont find in Scripture is any child being denied bsptism brcsuse of age. You wont find any child being told to wait until they can do an altar call. Whole households Scrioture states were baptized. Families have infants and small children

In addition to the biblical evidence you have the evidence of the practice of the Church as I have cited the Church Fathers for you.
Peace

Please answer the question,
And none of your nonsense, Just give a straight answer.

Here is the question again.

Here is a challenge for you,
Every Greek meaning for baptism, is by total immersion, so,
As you believe that water baptism saves,
You'll either have to admit that those who were baptized as infants, aren't saved, because they aren't baptised.
Or,
If you believe they are saved, You'll have to admit that baptism doesn't save, because they aren't baptised.

Which one do you admit to? ?.

 

[DeaconMike]

Please answer the question,
And none of your nonsense, Just give a straight answer.

Here is the question again.

Here is a challenge for you,
Every Greek meaning for baptism, is by total immersion, so,
As you believe that water baptism saves,
You'll either have to admit that those who were baptized as infants, aren't saved, because they aren't baptised.
Or,
If you believe they are saved, You'll have to admit that baptism doesn't save, because they aren't baptised.

Which one do you admit to? ?.

Dear God4me
I already answered that question for you. The word baptizmo has a lot of meanings in Sacred Scripture
It simply means to plunge. The validity of the Sacrament is not based on legalism.

 

[God4me]

It's the only example of a baptism method given, not that it's the only acceptable way to be baptized. Baptism itself does not save, only the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins provides salvation. The purpose of baptism is to profess your faith in God. You can do this everyday without being physically baptized. That's not to say that baptism isn't important, only that it is not necessary for salvation.

If we are going to Teach the Bible, Then we have to teach the totality of it's truth, Which means, we have to teach the only Biblical way for baptism, Is by total immersion.
I know Water baptism doesn't save, But we are talking to a Catholic who believe baptism saves, so we have to tell the only Biblical way of baptism, to prove that they aren't baptised.

 

[God4me]

Dear God4me
I already answered that question for you. The word baptizmo has a lot of meanings in Sacred Scripture
It simply means to plunge. The validity of the Sacrament is not based on legalism.

There you go AGAIN, avoiding the question, Please give the one that you admit to.

Baptism only has ONE Meaning in the scriptures, NOT Many meanings.

If you believe baptism saves, Then you have to do it the Biblical way, Not the devil inspired man made way.

So which one do you admit to, Catholics aren't baptised, so they aren't saved, Or, they are saved, and therefore baptism doesn't save.
It has to be one or the other, No beating about the bush, and answer which one is false and which one is true.

Remember, baptism, mean to immerse, submerge bury.

 

[valiant]

Dear God4me
I already answered that question for you. The word baptizmo has a lot of meanings in Sacred Scripture
It simply means to plunge. The validity of the Sacrament is not based on legalism.

baptizo when used of baptising men and women always means baptising an adult who has repented and outwardly believed. It is a physical seal that describes what has happened to them . They have purportedly died with Christ and been raised to newness of life (Rom 6.3). It FOLLOWS justification which results from belief,.

 

[DeaconMike]

baptizo when used of baptising men and women always means baptising an adult who has repented and outwardly believed. It is a physical seal that describes what has happened to them . They have purportedly died with Christ and been raised to newness of life (Rom 6.3). It FOLLOWS justification which results from belief,.

Dear valiant
Yiur simply reflecting an idea of judtification that came out of the Reformation. Baptism is regenerational.

 

[valiant]

Dear valiant
Yiur simply reflecting an idea of judtification that came out of the Reformation. Baptism is regenerational.

No it comes from Rom 3.21-5,23. We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Baptism is not regenerational. That was added by the later 3rd century church

you see even before the Roman Catholic church in 8th century ad was formed the church was slipping into error,

 

[DeaconMike]

No it comes from Rom 3.21-5,23. Baptism is not regenerational. That was added by the later 3rd century church
E
you see even before the Roman Catholic church evwas formed the church was slipping into error,

No my friend . It comes from Christ. We see the effects in Jesus ' own baptism. As Jesus is being baptized the Holy Spirit comes down on Jesus " behold my beloved Son". This is what happens to us when we are baptized. Christ in his baptism is anticipating his own death and resurrection. That is why when we are baptized we share in Christ's death and ressurection. After HS occurance Jesus seals with Jesus n the necessity of beng born from above/ again through water. After this conversation Jesus goes out to the country side and holds altar calls! No!! They go out to the countryside and baptize
Your theology of bsptism is a result of Reformstional thought.

 

[notuptome]

No my friend . It comes from Christ. We see the effects in Jesus ' own baptism. As Jesus is being baptized the Holy Spirit comes down on Jesus " behold my beloved Son". This is what happens to us when we are baptized. Christ in his baptism is anticipating his own death and resurrection. That is why when we are baptized we share in Christ's death and ressurection. After HS occurance Jesus seals with Jesus n the necessity of beng born from above/ again through water. After this conversation Jesus goes out to the country side and holds altar calls! No!! They go out to the countryside and baptize
Your theology of bsptism is a result of Reformstional thought.

And yours nullifies the blood of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

No justification comes from Rom 3.21-5,23. We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Baptism is not regenerational and FOLLOWS justification.. Regeneration through baptism was added by the later 3rd century church

you see even before the Roman Catholic church in 8th century ad was formed the church was slipping into error,

No my friend . It comes from Christ.

Justification come from God through Christ's righteousness. It is all explained in rom 3.21-5.21. The righteousness of God is imputed to us.

We see the effects in Jesus ' own baptism.

Jesus baptism was Gods seal on Him. It had nothing to do with justification,

As Jesus is being baptized the Holy Spirit comes down on Jesus " behold my beloved Son". This is what happens to us when we are baptized.

prove it. its just your opinion lol

Christ in his baptism is anticipating his own death and resurrection.

Jesus was being baptised to show He was the Messiah, It was JOHN's baptism. He was anticipating the Holy Spirit. It had nothing to do directly with His death and resurrection.

That is why when we are baptized we share in Christ's death and ressurection.

if you think an infant does that you must be mad,

After HS occurance Jesus seals with Jesus n the necessity of beng born from above/ again through water.

being 'born of water, even of the Spirit' refers to Isaiah 32.15; 44.1-5 etc. It doesn't mention baptism.

after this conversation Jesus goes out to the country side and holds altar calls! No!! They go out to the countryside and baptize
Your theology of bsptism is a result of Reformstional thought.

well the reformers may also have got it from the Scriptures which the RC church had kept hidden for so long. But I got it direct from the Scriptures. LOL many of the reformers still swallowed infant baptism. But the Scriptures teach ADULT baptism only.

 

[Mec99]

Exodus 20:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

A Statue of Mary is a carved image. Kneeling before a statue of Mary is bowing down to that image. Praying to the statue of Mary is serving Mary. All of these are FORBIDDEN by God.

Therefore all Catholics who bow down and pray to a statue of Mary are not True Christians. They are Idolaters. Worshiping Mary.

No Catholic who does this will be allowed to enter into Paradise with Jesus.

Repent DeaconMike, cast aside the Mary of the Catholic Church. Follow God and enter into Paradise with us True Christians.

OR could it be DeaconMike you have been blinded by the Catholic Church that you can never see the Truth in God?

 

[working4christ2]

Nicely done, THANKS

God bless

Patrick

 

[God4me]

Dear valiant
Yiur simply reflecting an idea of judtification that came out of the Reformation. Baptism is regenerational.

Show me where the Bible says water baptism regenerates.

And answer my previous question.
You can't answer it Can you?, Because you'll either have to admit that baptism doesn't save, or you'll have to admit that Catholics aren't saved.

 

[God4me]

No my friend . It comes from Christ. We see the effects in Jesus ' own baptism. As Jesus is being baptized the Holy Spirit comes down on Jesus " behold my beloved Son". This is what happens to us when we are baptized. Christ in his baptism is anticipating his own death and resurrection. That is why when we are baptized we share in Christ's death and ressurection. After HS occurance Jesus seals with Jesus n the necessity of beng born from above/ again through water. After this conversation Jesus goes out to the country side and holds altar calls! No!! They go out to the countryside and baptize
Your theology of bsptism is a result of Reformstional thought.

Jesus is our example, And He was the Son of God before He was baptised., And people have to become children of God before they can be baptised, So Jesus proves that there is no power in baptism to regenerate.
Jesus said, First make disciples, Then baptise them.
The RCC says, Baptised then Then make them disciples. The complete opposite to what the Bible says.

 

[Johnlove]

Jesus is our example, And He was the Son of God before He was baptised., And people have to become children of God before they can be baptised, So Jesus proves that there is no power in baptism to regenerate.
Jesus said, First make disciples, Then baptise them.
The RCC says, Baptised then Then make them disciples. The complete opposite to what the Bible says.

One can’t become a Child of God until he or she receives, and obeys the Holy Spirit.
Begotten by God/born again.
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”

(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible

 

[God4me]

One can’t become a Child of God until he or she receives, and obeys the Holy Spirit.
Begotten by God/born again.
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”

(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God” New Jerusalem bible

I know we have to be born again to become a child of God.
My point is, we have to be children of God, [Born again] to be baptised.

 

[Johnlove]

I know we have to be born again to become a child of God.
My point is, we have to be children of God, [Born again] to be baptised.

Yes and you believe from your understanding that a child should not be baptized. I also believe logically it makes more sense. But a spiritual walk with God is not always logical.

I was baptized as a baby, and was raised up in the Catholic Church. Never again was I ever baptized. Yet Jesus called me into his ministry, gave me the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit has had me walk is a number of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and has kept me sin free for over forty years.

I have a very close relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and God, and not once has he ever told me to be baptized again.