Why do Catholics break the Commandment about Idols?

God4me · Jul 19, 2016

All the Bible believing, Spirit filled early Christians would have kept to what the Bible says, and nowhere does the Bible teach infant baptism.
You CANNOT build a doctrine on something that's not in the Bible.
Catholics build all their doctrines on things that aren't I the Bible.

Here is a challenge for you,
Every Greek meaning for baptism, is by total immersion, so,
As you believe that water baptism saves,
You'll either have to admit that those who were baptized as infants, aren't saved, because they aren't baptised.
Or,
If you believe they are saved, You'll have to admit that baptism doesn't save, because they aren't baptised.

Which one do you admit to? ?.

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

God4me said:

Dear God 4e
Ok thst tells me you could not come up with any church fathers condemning infant baptism. The word baptizmo simply means to immerse. And indeed total immersion does bring out the meaning of the Sacrament. However it is not always practical or even possible. The jailor being baptized in the prison didn't have a river in the prison. When scripture states the Whole region was baptized archeology shows it would have been impossible to have the whole region at a river. What's more important is Scripture never states total immersion is neccessary. Besides if bsptism dousnt save why would you even care?
What you wont find in Scripture is any child being denied bsptism brcsuse of age. You wont find any child being told to wait until they can do an altar call. Whole households Scrioture states were baptized. Families have infants and small children

In addition to the biblical evidence you have the evidence of the practice of the Church as I have cited the Church Fathers for you.
Peace

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

gotime said:

You are way off on Peter here. Context is very clear that the rock on which Christ builds his church is not Peter but rather the confession of Peter.

Here is your rock or your foundation in other words of the church:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

There is your rock right there in bold. The church is built on the fact the Jesus is the Messiah the son of the living God.

Jesus deliberately used two different words so that we would not confuse the Rock of the church with the rock/Peter. IT is Peters confession that is the Rock. It is Jesus himself who is the rock.

Peter himself testifies that Christ is the Rock :

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Clearly Peter understood the rock to be Jesus Christ as the messiah. The cornerstone of the church.

We could go to many other places in the new testament and old to see that God is the rock and specifically Jesus is the rock of the church.

As for the keys you are partly right but also wrong.

Yes Peter and the other apostles had the keys as the keys are the knowledge of the kingdom. as when Jesus rebuked the people saying:

Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

I don't have time to go into it, But the reality is every leader called by God has the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

notice the same exact language Jesus uses later:

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This was instruction to all the disciples:

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

So it was not to Peter only that the keys to the kingdom are given.

In fact if you look at the context of chapter 16 you will see that while Jesus was addressing peter because Peter was the one who spoke. Jesus was teaching all the disciples.

I am sorry but what you have said is just not true.

Dear Gottime

The Gr verifies what was posted. it not based on personal opinion
Peace

Mec99 · Jul 19, 2016

Tell us DeaconMike how do we receive Salvation?

Do we receive Salvation from the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by being in the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by believing Peter was a Pope? No.
Do we receive Salvation by the Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church? No.

Do we ever receive Salvation by anything the Catholic Church believes in or teaches? No.

We receive Salvation by the Grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved

Its by the Grace from God that we have received our Salvation.

Therefore we do not need the Catholic Church nor any of its teachings nor commandments nor Traditions nor Mary!

We walk in the Spirit of God serving and Worshiping God. This is all we need. We have no need of anything from or in the Catholic Church BECAUSE Salvation is not based on the Catholic Church.

We can say all you want DeaconMike about the Catholic Church but my Salvation is Eternal and I can never lose it.

working4christ2 · Jul 19, 2016

PaulMack said:

The SHORT answer is that Catholics don't!

“ R” Catholics Idolaters ?
by Parickt Miron
I’m a Catholic

There are a great many charges leveled against the Catholic Church on a all to frequent basis by non-Catholic - Christians and others as well. Often out of ignorance; not knowing the logic and foundation for what we hold to be the singular truth. It’s what they have been told, so it’s what they believe. Among the more common charges is that we Catholics are “idolaters,” and the question before us is it true? After all we do “pray to Mary, the Mother of God,” and to Angels and Saints. So it would seem that their at least might be some grounds to support these charges. And there is plenty of evidence of statues, stained-glass windows, prayer-cards, religious art that seems to add credence to the charge.

The answer rest is in the terminology used. In the charges leveled is the word “Worship,” As in Catholics “Worship Mary.” This is an incorrect understanding of Catholic Practice. Catholics; like non-Catholic-Christians hold to the fact that “Worship” is reserver3ed to God alone. So then; what is it that Catholics do, if it’s not “Worship?”

In the Book of Exodus, chapter Twenty we read this admonition: this command from God. “Exodus 20: And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.” "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

Well that certainly seems clear enough? But is it REALLY? … The most basic, inviolable, indeed; Infallible rule for understanding the Bible correctly [as God Himself intends], is that Never-Ever can one part of the Bible contradict another portion. Where this even the slightest possibility, the Bible would be worthless as a tool for teaching or learning ones Faith. When ever this appears to take place we can be certain that it is we; not the bible that is in error.

So my friends lets turn to the book of Numbers; the same God giving direction to the same Moses.Num.21:8 -9 “And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. And here is another example of God’s Command to Moses: from the Book of Exodus no-less. Exod.25: 18-22 “And you shall make two cherubim [ANGELS] of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. … Exod.26: 1 "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet stuff; with cherubim skillfully worked shall you make them.”

So what’s the deal here, we have God directing; actually commanding Moses to “MAKE and display IDOLS” to be used as God commands?

The explanation is in the CORRECT understanding of the term “Idols”. Go back and re-look at Exodus 20 and take note of the fact that God specifies “FALSE gods“; not just any images. What God prohibits is anything that is in competition to His God-Head. Images that lead one [or at least that is their intended purpose], are NOT prohibited because they are a means to a building a closer unity with God. It is the purpose of the image that determines if in fact it is an IDOL, or something that reminds us of heavenly things. Certainly Mary, the Saints, Angels all qualify as “holy things” that ought can, and ought to lead us in the direction of God; not towards any “false competing” gods. So statues, art, images of Saints and Mary are quite “OK” with God, as a means of gaining possible closer union with Him.

This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAILMARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.

“Hail Mary,
Full of Grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed are you among all women
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus
Holy Mary
Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]

Luke Chapter One
[SUP]26[/SUP] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth [SUP]27[/SUP] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. [SUP]28[/SUP] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women [SUP]29[/SUP] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [SUP]30[/SUP] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. [SUP]31[/SUP] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [SUP]32[/SUP] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever [SUP]33[/SUP] And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
[SUP]34[/SUP] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
[SUP]35[/SUP] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The final petition: “ Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death” is the reason Catholics pray to [actually THROUGH them] Mary and the Saints Our prayers ARE DIRECTED to God; BUT with the intercession, the HELP of Mary and the Saints who ADD their own prayers on-top of ours making them far more effective, and pleasing to God.

We call them “Intercessory Prayers.” Luke.18: 1 “And he [Jesus] told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. … Eph.6: 18 “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,”

As one can see, from reading the New Testament, Jesus Himself prayed often as did the Apostles. Prayer is lifting out minds and heats to God. So the fact that Catholics use reminders of those who have both “passed before us“; and PASSED the necessary steps required for ones salvations is a form of “VENERATION“, NOT “Worship,” which is RIGHTLY reserve red to God alone.

Therefore the charge against Catholics as Idolaters is blatantly FALSE, and unmerited.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Johnlove · Jul 19, 2016

Mec99 said:

We receive salvation by proclaiming Jesus Christ’s name, but one will go to the kingdom of God by keep God’s Word.

John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.” Jerusalem Bible

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

Mec99 said:

Tell us DeaconMike how do we receive Salvation?

Do we receive Salvation from the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by being in the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by believing Peter was a Pope? No.
Do we receive Salvation by the Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church? No.

Do we ever receive Salvation by anything the Catholic Church believes in or teaches? No.

We receive Salvation by the Grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved

Its by the Grace from God that we have received our Salvation.

Therefore we do not need the Catholic Church nor any of its teachings nor commandments nor Traditions nor Mary!

We walk in the Spirit of God serving and Worshiping God. This is all we need. We have no need of anything from or in the Catholic Church BECAUSE Salvation is not based on the Catholic Church.

We can say all you want DeaconMike about the Catholic Church but my Salvation is Eternal and I can never lose it.

Dear Mecc99
Sounds like you are very confused. The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. Period

valiant · Jul 19, 2016

DeaconMike said:

LOL you are still a protestant you don't know what the Roman church teaches

Mec99 · Jul 19, 2016

Still Johnlove you teach Salvation by Works!

You teach its by our Works of keeping His Words that one enters into Heaven. This is a Works based Salvation you are teaching. Why? Are you so blind you cannot see our Salvation is not based on our Works but by the Grace of God?

What is the will of the Father? Is the will of the Father our doing Works for our Salvation?

Will you ever understand its nothing we have done to receive Salvation?

Who are you to say who keeps or does not keep the Words of God?

Why are you basing your Salvation on RIGHT thinking?

Is our Salvation based on having all the right answers? Having all the Right Doctrines? On being in the Right Church? NO!

Its by the Grace of God we receive our Salvation.

Right Words, Right Will, Right answers, Right Doctrines, Right Church are all based on OUR Works!

valiant · Jul 19, 2016

Johnlove said:

so you accept that the Bible teaches us that we are all sinful. you can keep your invalid translations.

Mec99 · Jul 19, 2016

Actually DeaconMike the Catholic Church teaches Salvation is also based by being a member of the Catholic Church.

Therefore the Catholic Church teaches Salvation by Faith and Grace and Membership in the Catholic Church.

Now i ask you a question DeaconMike. Can a person receive Salvation if they are not a member of the Catholic Church? Can a person receive Salvation if they belong to a Baptist Church and have not ever stepped a foot into the Catholic Church? Is there Salvation OUTSIDE of the Catholic Church?

tourist · Jul 19, 2016

Mec99 said:

DeaconMike said:

valiant said:

According to the Nicene Creed that the Catholic church professes each week DeaconMike's estimation is close to being biblically accurate.
[h=4]Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.[/h]

Mec99 · Jul 19, 2016

Colossians 1:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Everything was created by and through Jesus.

Therefore part of the Nicene Creed is wrong.

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

Mec99 said:

The Catholic Church does not teach that we can earn salvation by our good works. A check of the Catechism of the Cathoiic Church is free and on line
What the Church does teach is what St Paul teaches repeadily is " the obedience of faith" or as Gal 5 :6 states faith working through charity"
This is why St James days " faith without works cannot save".
The term " faith alone" is once in scripture and says we are not saved by faith alone.
Peace

tourist · Jul 19, 2016

Mec99 said:

It says in the creed that through Him all things were made. Which part of the creed is wrong?

God4me · Jul 19, 2016

DeaconMike said:

Immersion might not be practical for Catholics, but it's the only way the Bible teaches baptism.
And the Bible does teach total immersion, check the Greek, so immersion is nessesary

The jailer wasn't baptised in jail, Paul took him out.
And ther were 100s of dispels to baptism the multitudes

Catholics have speculate in order to build their doctrines.
But Christians stick with what the Bible says.

working4christ2 · Jul 19, 2016

DeaconMike said:

The real PROBLEM here and elsewhere as well is that we use the same WORDS, but NOT the same meaning of those words.

We Catholics KNOW that we CANNOT "work our way into heaven"; THAT SAID, attaining heaven without practicing CHARITY will be very difficult if not impossible.

A SECOND Problem is that P's seem prone to use the bile slectively; IF GOD didn't want a teaching to be in t e Bible, ot WOULD NOT be there. Amen!

James chapter 2: [16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

God Bless you!
Patrick

tourist · Jul 19, 2016

God4me said:

It's the only example of a baptism method given, not that it's the only acceptable way to be baptized. Baptism itself does not save, only the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins provides salvation. The purpose of baptism is to profess your faith in God. You can do this everyday without being physically baptized. That's not to say that baptism isn't important, only that it is not necessary for salvation.

Johnlove · Jul 19, 2016

Mec99 said:

Of course it is works that make it possible for one to go to Heaven with Jesus Christ.
It is God’s Work in and through him or her. But you need to be sure one will not get to Heaven unless he or she keeps God’s Word.
John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.” Jerusalem Bible

valiant · Jul 19, 2016

working4christ2 said:

The real PROBLEM here and elsewhere as well is that we use the same WORDS, but NOT the same meaning of those words.

We Catholics KNOW that we CANNOT "work our way into heaven"; THAT SAID, attaining heaven without practicing CHARITY will be very difficult if not impossible.

A SECOND Problem is that P's seem prone to use the bile slectively; IF GOD didn't want a teaching to be in t e Bible, ot WOULD NOT be there. Amen!

James chapter 2: [16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

God Bless you!
Patrick

but what you fail to realise is that James is taking about justification BEFORE MEN (2.18). He is talking about the aftermath of salvation. Read Rom 3.24onwards. It is quite clear, even to an RC.

Why do Catholics break the Commandment about Idols?

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

working4christ2

Guest

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

working4christ2

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member