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Exactly my point. This is what proud self righteousness is all about, trusting self and one's own abilities. Doing their "best", not having faith in God's best. Not trusting/believing God, being in disobedience. This is what dead religionists have their faith in: do their "best" and hope it's gonna be accepted. Evil and dead works coming from a nature which is bearing fruit unto death.
B
I did prove with scripture... scroll back and read it. Further, the previous passages "CLUE" to why bringing your first fruit is so important... Everything had been cursed... so you bring a first fruit offering to God FIRST..so he will redeem the rest.
half heartedness IS disobedience. Neither apply... if he had brought the proper first fruit offering... it would have been a proper offering.
half heartedness IS disobedience. Neither apply... if he had brought the proper first fruit offering... it would have been a proper offering.
A
actually your both wrong. but the reason you give by itself is right. God requires a blood sacrifice
and He wants out firstfruits. but this story isnt about that. God when talking to cain surely would have told him
about blood if that was it. and cain could only have given first fruits because of the time of year.
Grain offerings were given also and they pointed to the resurrection.
We are told cain didnt have faith...God said he didnt do well(his heart) faith.
Also notice how its worded. But unto "cain" and to his offering He had not respect.
If it said ...but to cains offering He had not respect then id say that was it.
I see the typology is the other story and appreciate it. But i think Here from the talk
God had to cain it was an attitude problem.
and He wants out firstfruits. but this story isnt about that. God when talking to cain surely would have told him
about blood if that was it. and cain could only have given first fruits because of the time of year.
Grain offerings were given also and they pointed to the resurrection.
We are told cain didnt have faith...God said he didnt do well(his heart) faith.
Also notice how its worded. But unto "cain" and to his offering He had not respect.
If it said ...but to cains offering He had not respect then id say that was it.
I see the typology is the other story and appreciate it. But i think Here from the talk
God had to cain it was an attitude problem.
I did not object to the case of the first fruits. What I object to is the speculative and unscriptural idea of Cain being half hearted. Cain obviously thought what he brought forth was the "best" he could give. And surely he had his uncircumcised and wicked HEART in it. Scripture says he was of the wicked one. He had an evil heart of unbelief. Hence he did not have faith and walked in disobedience.
B
@Abiding
Well Gosh abiding... don't you think if a first fruit offering is required and but instead bring "an offering"... wouldn't that sorta compute into a faith problem??? Doesn't it require FAITH to give firstfruit with the expectation that God will redeem and prosper the rest????
PLEASE DO expound on how you say Cain could only bring firstfruit because of the time of year????
Well Gosh abiding... don't you think if a first fruit offering is required and but instead bring "an offering"... wouldn't that sorta compute into a faith problem??? Doesn't it require FAITH to give firstfruit with the expectation that God will redeem and prosper the rest????
PLEASE DO expound on how you say Cain could only bring firstfruit because of the time of year????
Of course it was an attitude problem, It is my work, it is what I have sown and reaped why will you not accept it. God demands what He has sown and what He has tilled. Once Man entered into sin, there was nothing that he could give to atone for his sin. God had to send His own sacrifice to atone for man, Hence the lamb. That is what Abel offered and today the offense of the cross cause hatred even among Christians. Flesh will always oppose the cross.
Gee Tribesman... I never inserted the "half-hearted" concept into any of my posts... so you musta just been looking to argue. Go argue with one of the people who did.
The attitude problem was due to Cain being of the wicked one, having an evil heart of unbelief. Surely Cain had this evil heart in his evil works. He is a prime example of somebody who trust his own righteousness and dead works. A prime example of disobedience, rebellion and unbelief and a hater of God and God's people.
A
Yes while we are not given much info we do see offerings here. So im presuming they are the same as:
Numbers 15:1-4
"[1] The LORD said to Moses, [2] "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'After you enter the land I am giving you as a home [3] and you present to the LORD offerings made by fire, from the herd or the flock, as an aroma pleasing to the LORD--whether burnt offerings or sacrifices, for special vows or freewill offerings or festival offerings-- [4] then the one who brings his offering shall present to the LORD a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with a quarter of a hin of oil."
Ok my point is that both of these offerings are given here in genesis. As a community covenant.
the Lamb, shedding the blood. And the grain representing Jesus as the bread of life.
Notice earlier in verse 2 :in the process of time it came to pass.
This was not a daily activity. But a passover. And the grain was at
the stage where any of it would have been from the first fruits.
foreshadowing:Luke 22:19-20
"[19] And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." [20] In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
I held both other views and see their truth and merit. I just dont think
that was it. I think cain didnt give a rip, and both he and his offering were rejected. No Faith.
We have God saying this later on. He hated their offerings and bloody sacrifices
because they only honored Him with lip service.
A
Okay... that's nice... but it is still conjecture... WHY do you think Cain didn't give a rip??? Prove it from scripture please not just making suppositions. also r u avoiding the "time Of year" question???
also r u avoiding the "time Of year" question???
Thats why they call it firstfruits. Just like Jesus is.
Its not conjecture Go read Gods talk with cain "before" he killed able. If thats not an attitude problem
i dont know what is. And it was that attitude of his God talked to him about that took him to murder.
And read on even later "am i my brothers keeper?" thats just one real bad attitude and from one who didnt give a rip.
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B
fine... but yo are talking about after the the offering... if you are saying that God used his foreknowledge to reject Cain's offering... that doesn't harmonize with God's character. BTW.."if it was pass-over"... say what??? isn't that supposing far more socio-religious structure into the current earth??? we are talking about genesis chapter 4 here... right??
A
Not sure what your talking about we have no idea how advanced or primitive they were
in the sacrificial system. We have glimpses tho all the way past the flood.
Hebrews tells us Able had faith. If God thought Cains attitude was fine He would not have
talked to him and warned him and recorded it. And while reproving him told him his sacrifice
wasnt proper. But He only spoke of Cains heart and the sin that was ready to pounce on him.
I dont know what you mean by foreknowledge. They gave the offerings before God accepted
or rejected either. But whatever you think is A-ok with me.
in the sacrificial system. We have glimpses tho all the way past the flood.
Hebrews tells us Able had faith. If God thought Cains attitude was fine He would not have
talked to him and warned him and recorded it. And while reproving him told him his sacrifice
wasnt proper. But He only spoke of Cains heart and the sin that was ready to pounce on him.
I dont know what you mean by foreknowledge. They gave the offerings before God accepted
or rejected either. But whatever you think is A-ok with me.
B
I am saying... your conclusions appear to all be based on AFTER the offering was rejected... I am trying to say... the text indicates WHY the offering was rejected BEFORE God rejected it.
I am not sure why you are not understanding me??? I think while many people are making good arguments... scriptural Forshadowing is a "progressive" revelation and I think in this particular case... people are applying TOO much later revelation to this accounting.. I think the answer is given in Gen 3-4.
M
Just like to touch on something for a second to point out, (and the first sentence here is just in reflection to this one thought Barly nothing else, the rest is for anybody else to read
but We're not suppose to "EXPECT" anything.
-----------------------------------------------
One thing I notice in the circumstance is that Cain wasnt realizing that God is the giver of all good things.
Pickles had a good point
-Pride-
Many people sit back and think look how good I did,
Look how accomplished I am and think they did it all of their own merit not realizing that it was God who gave them any
talent
any intelligence
any skill
any knowledge
1. Abel likely knew it was God providing while he attended as a servant
2. Cain likely felt it was all or mostly his own doing with his crops not realizing it was God who watered and made them grow
In honor to give thanks, return the favor so to speak whatever way is easiest to think of it, not that God needs fruit or a lamb but it sets up the premise for giving back in return for what God has blessed you with in life.
It helps to not take God for granted, which is also likely what Cain was headed toward within his heart.
We are meant to appreciate God's blessings instead of questioning his grace.
How many times does a person for instance get a promotion at a job, or get a lucky deal on a car when theyre low on money and theirs has just broke down.
They weren't lucky
Yet some may not even thank God for the blessing of even having food warmth and shelter let alone anything that is added unto them beyond that.
Not only should God be revered as Lord but he also wants to be appreciated for what he has given us namely any knowledge talent and understanding, most importantly about him.
How we use that is just one way of giving back to him.
I see also Cain gave because he felt he had to otherwise he wouldnt have given at all.
Think of it like a child who you ask to behave or do something and they say "ok well Im only gonna cuz I HAVE TO."
And a parent would likely feel, well if thats the only reason then never mind, I want you to come back when you want to help because you want to.
Cain was EXPECTING something in return for his sacrifice even if it was recognition
THAT is one main reason why he got upset.
Because a gift isn't a gift if anything is expected
anything at all.
You ever have someone give you a gift and then maybe 2 months later try and cash in on it like it was instead suddenly some kind of favor.
It wasn't a gift from the heart then.
It was them building points to cash in on
Thats one thing Cain was doing, trying to earn brownie points.
It wasnt a gift to the Lord.
If it was from the heart, if it was a gift, Cains response to the Lord rejecting it would have been more to the tune of
Well thats alright Lord, I wanted to give back to you in return for your blessing of giving me crops in the first place,
for the knowledge of even how to farm
how may I do better next time?
Sin was crouching at Cains door because he was starting to rely on himself instead of the Lord and he was inevitably going to disappoint himself, as we all do when we dont meet our own expectations.
As we all have done when we're not relying on the Lord
As we all have done when we suddenly make a decision out of frustration or desperation as a result of ignoring God.
The problem is, in the process of Cain trying to meet his own expectations he was too busy ignoring God.
Again....as so many of us do when we get ........
busy with life.
As Abiding and a few others pointed out God had a talk with Cain
In a way it was kinda like
"Hey, pay attention to what you're doing, because you're
not thinkin right."
How many times does God warn us in different ways and in effect say,
"hey, better get your priorities straight"
And what are our priorities?
As you mentioned previously Barly...
God first,
but that should mean in everything
Our work, our home, our diet, our bodily health as a temple, our friendships, our hobbies, what we feed our minds with, what we read, what we entertain ourselves with, what clothes we wear to not be a stumbling block to others including non-Christians who may be used to it.
Everything.
When we put God first in everything, we then start to abide in his will because we are thinking of him first and ourselves last.
This sets up a good habit of behavior which also lets us be able to love our neighbor since we are in tune with Gods will and also in the habit of denying ourself for another.
When we put God first in everything denying ourselves and absorbing any tests trials or sacrifices as a strengthening while at the same time appreciating anything God provides at all period,
When one is doing all that it is fairly difficult to become prideful.
When one is not prideful they are giving the firstfruit best of everything...
the gift of Themselves back to the Lord
Like a gift to the king with the thought of
"Have mercy on me for I am not even wirthy of even being in your presence."
Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
When Ive been shown I've done anything well before God, I try not to take credit for it since I know any good of myself comes from God.
Cain was wanting to take credit for his work. Expecting God to give him that credit.
I Marvel when God recognizes anything I've done as good.
But all the while appreciate that he made me capable
I understand it as him also showing his mercy since our works are as filthy rags, so at least God see's any effort and encourages and even at times may reward us when its correct from the heart.
There's many a day I feel blessed beyond measure
And I wonder why, because I don't deserve it.
Then I have to remind myself of what I've told others when they've felt the same.
It's not about deserve, God doesn't owe us anything.
Any blessing we have is about Gods Love, mercy and grace manifested in our life.
The substance of what is hoped for through Faith, in my eyes is God making his presence known to us at all.
And it is because of this that my love for him, causes my desire to want to obey because I want to, not because I have to.
I tend to think that when God warned Cain, that Cain was trying to show his independance in the rebellious form of ...
"I'll only gonna obey when I wanna, not if I'm told to." While sticking out his tongue.
As God is our own Father, how many a parent doesn't discipline a child for the same behavior.
but We're not suppose to "EXPECT" anything.
-----------------------------------------------
One thing I notice in the circumstance is that Cain wasnt realizing that God is the giver of all good things.
Pickles had a good point
-Pride-
Many people sit back and think look how good I did,
Look how accomplished I am and think they did it all of their own merit not realizing that it was God who gave them any
talent
any intelligence
any skill
any knowledge
1. Abel likely knew it was God providing while he attended as a servant
2. Cain likely felt it was all or mostly his own doing with his crops not realizing it was God who watered and made them grow
In honor to give thanks, return the favor so to speak whatever way is easiest to think of it, not that God needs fruit or a lamb but it sets up the premise for giving back in return for what God has blessed you with in life.
It helps to not take God for granted, which is also likely what Cain was headed toward within his heart.
We are meant to appreciate God's blessings instead of questioning his grace.
How many times does a person for instance get a promotion at a job, or get a lucky deal on a car when theyre low on money and theirs has just broke down.
They weren't lucky
Yet some may not even thank God for the blessing of even having food warmth and shelter let alone anything that is added unto them beyond that.
Not only should God be revered as Lord but he also wants to be appreciated for what he has given us namely any knowledge talent and understanding, most importantly about him.
How we use that is just one way of giving back to him.
I see also Cain gave because he felt he had to otherwise he wouldnt have given at all.
Think of it like a child who you ask to behave or do something and they say "ok well Im only gonna cuz I HAVE TO."
And a parent would likely feel, well if thats the only reason then never mind, I want you to come back when you want to help because you want to.
Cain was EXPECTING something in return for his sacrifice even if it was recognition
THAT is one main reason why he got upset.
Because a gift isn't a gift if anything is expected
anything at all.
You ever have someone give you a gift and then maybe 2 months later try and cash in on it like it was instead suddenly some kind of favor.
It wasn't a gift from the heart then.
It was them building points to cash in on
Thats one thing Cain was doing, trying to earn brownie points.
It wasnt a gift to the Lord.
If it was from the heart, if it was a gift, Cains response to the Lord rejecting it would have been more to the tune of
Well thats alright Lord, I wanted to give back to you in return for your blessing of giving me crops in the first place,
for the knowledge of even how to farm
how may I do better next time?
Sin was crouching at Cains door because he was starting to rely on himself instead of the Lord and he was inevitably going to disappoint himself, as we all do when we dont meet our own expectations.
As we all have done when we're not relying on the Lord
As we all have done when we suddenly make a decision out of frustration or desperation as a result of ignoring God.
The problem is, in the process of Cain trying to meet his own expectations he was too busy ignoring God.
Again....as so many of us do when we get ........
busy with life.
As Abiding and a few others pointed out God had a talk with Cain
In a way it was kinda like
"Hey, pay attention to what you're doing, because you're
not thinkin right."
How many times does God warn us in different ways and in effect say,
"hey, better get your priorities straight"
And what are our priorities?
As you mentioned previously Barly...
God first,
but that should mean in everything
Our work, our home, our diet, our bodily health as a temple, our friendships, our hobbies, what we feed our minds with, what we read, what we entertain ourselves with, what clothes we wear to not be a stumbling block to others including non-Christians who may be used to it.
Everything.
When we put God first in everything, we then start to abide in his will because we are thinking of him first and ourselves last.
This sets up a good habit of behavior which also lets us be able to love our neighbor since we are in tune with Gods will and also in the habit of denying ourself for another.
When we put God first in everything denying ourselves and absorbing any tests trials or sacrifices as a strengthening while at the same time appreciating anything God provides at all period,
When one is doing all that it is fairly difficult to become prideful.
When one is not prideful they are giving the firstfruit best of everything...
the gift of Themselves back to the Lord
Like a gift to the king with the thought of
"Have mercy on me for I am not even wirthy of even being in your presence."
Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
When Ive been shown I've done anything well before God, I try not to take credit for it since I know any good of myself comes from God.
Cain was wanting to take credit for his work. Expecting God to give him that credit.
I Marvel when God recognizes anything I've done as good.
But all the while appreciate that he made me capable
I understand it as him also showing his mercy since our works are as filthy rags, so at least God see's any effort and encourages and even at times may reward us when its correct from the heart.
There's many a day I feel blessed beyond measure
And I wonder why, because I don't deserve it.
Then I have to remind myself of what I've told others when they've felt the same.
It's not about deserve, God doesn't owe us anything.
Any blessing we have is about Gods Love, mercy and grace manifested in our life.
The substance of what is hoped for through Faith, in my eyes is God making his presence known to us at all.
And it is because of this that my love for him, causes my desire to want to obey because I want to, not because I have to.
I tend to think that when God warned Cain, that Cain was trying to show his independance in the rebellious form of ...
"I'll only gonna obey when I wanna, not if I'm told to." While sticking out his tongue.
As God is our own Father, how many a parent doesn't discipline a child for the same behavior.
The assumption that many make about Cain being half hearted or not having his heart in his offering is off base. This assumption is usually made for a reason. The reason often being that zeal and wholeheartedness in and of themselves are viewed as indicators of something that may be pleasing to God.
Cain had an evil heart of unbelief in what he did. He did what he did wholeheartedly. His evil work and turning ears deaf on God's instructions proved what was in his evil heart. He wasn't right from the start and his evil works proved his lostness. Cain wholeheartedly brought forth the best he thought he could offer, which was a non-bloody sacrifice of fruit of the ground, which signified Cain's belief in salvation conditioned on his best efforts. This was a dead work which proved that Cain was lost and his deeds were evil.
Abel's blood sacrifice of the firstlings of his flock, which signified his belief in salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ, exposed Cain's sacrifice as an evil work. Because of this Cain hated Abel. Abel suffered persecution unto death from Cain on account of Christ.
Believers are like Abel, who expose wicked unbelievers, including those who zealously and wholeheartedly bring the best they have to offer to God. It is in this light that John says in 1John.3:12-13 that we shouldn't marvel if the world hates us. It is only a natural for the world to hate those who expose its evil deeds. If we didn't expose the world's deeds as evil, especially the self righteous evil deeds of proud, boastful and dead religionists, then the world would love us, as it loves the false prophets, and there would be no persecution.
Cain had an evil heart of unbelief in what he did. He did what he did wholeheartedly. His evil work and turning ears deaf on God's instructions proved what was in his evil heart. He wasn't right from the start and his evil works proved his lostness. Cain wholeheartedly brought forth the best he thought he could offer, which was a non-bloody sacrifice of fruit of the ground, which signified Cain's belief in salvation conditioned on his best efforts. This was a dead work which proved that Cain was lost and his deeds were evil.
Abel's blood sacrifice of the firstlings of his flock, which signified his belief in salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ, exposed Cain's sacrifice as an evil work. Because of this Cain hated Abel. Abel suffered persecution unto death from Cain on account of Christ.
Believers are like Abel, who expose wicked unbelievers, including those who zealously and wholeheartedly bring the best they have to offer to God. It is in this light that John says in 1John.3:12-13 that we shouldn't marvel if the world hates us. It is only a natural for the world to hate those who expose its evil deeds. If we didn't expose the world's deeds as evil, especially the self righteous evil deeds of proud, boastful and dead religionists, then the world would love us, as it loves the false prophets, and there would be no persecution.
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