Will Christ set up His literal Kingdom on earth in the future?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
iamsoandso, I am going to ask that you read the previous chapter (20) as well as 21 again--together... Keep in mind the dangers of the countryside for the Apostles at this time and Paul on his journey found there was no difference. Which is why He ask the elders of the Church of Ephesus to meet them at the Miletus harbor...,Paul is headed to Jerusalem and a very possible death sentence.
Note: Ephesus was also having a problem with erosion that was filling their harbor little by little...Today, what was the harbor of Ephesus is now 6 miles inland.
If you are still having problems with it, let me know, I will help you.
Blade
Last edited:
How can Futurism be false teaching when the unimaginable judgments of the 6th and 7th seal have not occurred as yet? Or do you prefer to fantasize them?
And there is indeed a biblical way to prove that Daniel's 70th week is in the future. Study the Olivet Discourse and see the connection between the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place and the Great Tribulation. Jesus said that the Great Tribulation is a unique period of history such as has never been nor will ever be. Now take the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals and try to fit them into any period of history. Particularly the CATACLYSMIC COSMIC JUDGMENTS. If all of those had already occurred we would already be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken... (Mt 24:15,21,29).
So can the naysayers kindly tell us if the stars have already fallen from heaven, and the powers of the heavens been shaken?
And let us not mock the words of Christ and the Word of God by dismissing this as merely allegorical.
And there is indeed a biblical way to prove that Daniel's 70th week is in the future. Study the Olivet Discourse and see the connection between the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place and the Great Tribulation. Jesus said that the Great Tribulation is a unique period of history such as has never been nor will ever be. Now take the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals and try to fit them into any period of history. Particularly the CATACLYSMIC COSMIC JUDGMENTS. If all of those had already occurred we would already be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken... (Mt 24:15,21,29).
So can the naysayers kindly tell us if the stars have already fallen from heaven, and the powers of the heavens been shaken?
And let us not mock the words of Christ and the Word of God by dismissing this as merely allegorical.
Good point or that if previously the shadows and types when the Jews were used as a parable for the time then present, what they did offer could not make them complete to begin with . They misused to the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath and circumcision as an experience that gave then selves the illusion because they performed, it proved they had the Spirit of Christ, as a false zeal for God. The same spirit that they rejected when the veil was rent became their stumbling stone.
The time of refomation had come. It is simply ignored in favor of building up another temple to be used as a shadow as if the veil was never rent.
Tt's all about timing.The season had come to rent the veil not mend it.
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Heb 9:8
The time of refomation had come. It is simply ignored in favor of building up another temple to be used as a shadow as if the veil was never rent.
Tt's all about timing.The season had come to rent the veil not mend it.
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Heb 9:8
Last edited:
The renting of the veil signaled or marked the time of refomation .The temporal wall not seen, between a Jew and a Gentile came tumbling down . I don't see the veil being rent years later. The Jew that refuse to believe the time of refomation came when the veil was rent are still using part of a literal wall as a idol image in a hope that Christ will come in the flesh
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
The wrath of God is being revealed . We are still living in a corrupted body of death on a corrupted dying creation.Corruption does not inherit the incorruptible.It comes in the twinkling of the eye on the last day. His kingdom will never be of this world as if we did know Christ after flesh and blood as that seen .Which he himself declared it does not profit.(God is not a man as us)
Why do you keep offering a prescription that states if the literal word as to its meaning makes philosophical sense, then don't seek the spiritual understanding?
How would that affect the law of faith in respect to the unseen eternal?
I think it more a “matter of semantics” searching for the understanding hid from the literal understanding
The law of faith reads...
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The context in so much that without parable Christ spoke not should always be considered first. Especially in a book using a signified interpretation
The language in Revelation that was sent was also signified as a parable. Without parables Christ spoke not.
Hide the parable, hide the spiritual understanding .
What does a literal word thousand signify in that parable found in Revelation 20.?
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and “signified” it by his angel unto his servant John:
I looks like a word that we get semantics form
Strongs lexicon.....4591 semaino {say-mah'-ee-no}
from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation); TDNT - 7:262,1015; v
AV - signify 6; 6
semantics. 3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning. b : the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings.
Why do you keep offering a prescription that states if the literal word as to its meaning makes philosophical sense, then don't seek the spiritual understanding?
How would that affect the law of faith in respect to the unseen eternal?
I think it more a “matter of semantics” searching for the understanding hid from the literal understanding
The law of faith reads...
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The context in so much that without parable Christ spoke not should always be considered first. Especially in a book using a signified interpretation
The language in Revelation that was sent was also signified as a parable. Without parables Christ spoke not.
Hide the parable, hide the spiritual understanding .
What does a literal word thousand signify in that parable found in Revelation 20.?
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and “signified” it by his angel unto his servant John:
I looks like a word that we get semantics form
Strongs lexicon.....4591 semaino {say-mah'-ee-no}
from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation); TDNT - 7:262,1015; v
AV - signify 6; 6
semantics. 3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning. b : the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings.
A
Jesus established the NEW Covenant after His ascension to place the Blood He shed upon the Cross on the altar of Heaven.
However the Old Covenant doesn't end until the NEW heaven and NEW Earth is established and this world is destroyed. it is obsolete but has not disappeared yet. Most of the world is under the Law that will condemn them to the Fiery pit.
Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
However the Old Covenant doesn't end until the NEW heaven and NEW Earth is established and this world is destroyed. it is obsolete but has not disappeared yet. Most of the world is under the Law that will condemn them to the Fiery pit.
Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
While Paul, James, and the elders could have, and did pray everywhere; their praying and observing the Jewish traditions at the temple would have been edifying to the babes in Spirit, and would therefore have at least afforded them to be heard by their fellow countrymen as abiding with the law, rather than their being heretics.
Paul was being a Jew to the Jews, while he portrayed himself as a Greek to the Greeks, and a barbarian to the barbarians.
Paul was being a Jew to the Jews, while he portrayed himself as a Greek to the Greeks, and a barbarian to the barbarians.
The bolded statement is TOTALLY FALSE. The Old Covenant was rendered obsolete the moment Christ said IT IS FINISHED. As to the condemnation of the unbelieving world it is failure to obey the Gospel which will condemn them to the fiery pit.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
So it seems that you have quite a few erroneous beliefs under your belt, including Amillenialism.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
So it seems that you have quite a few erroneous beliefs under your belt, including Amillenialism.
As long as the temple was standing in Jerusalem, the apostles accommodated the unbelieving Jews to a small degree. As Paul said,to the Jews he became a Jew so that he might win some. This was simply ritual purification, which would have been perfectly acceptable under the Old Covenant. At the same time Paul, James, and the Christian elders were not deviating from the Gospel. As long as we remember that this was a period of transition, and all these men were being guided by the Holy Spirit, we should accept this for what it is. Once the temple was destroyed, the rituals would come to an end.
agreed but hardly not imaginable. The writer imagined them
There is NO WAY in which the seventieth week can be proved to be 'in the future' unless you follow the false idea
of making a 'seven' equal seven years which it patently does NOT.
The seventieth seven clearly explains what happened when the temple was destroyed and it began with Jesus confirming the covenant with the Jews That is undeniable except to a theorist.
Both began with the Roman invasion of Palestine and what followed per Luke
Yes it is the tribulation of the Jews from 66ad onwards to the present timey period of history.
They will occur when the tribulation of the Jews is brought to an end
it is quite plain. The abomination of desolation occurred in 70 AD. The great tribulation (of the Jews) has occurred ever since. Then will come the cataclysmic events.
but that comes at the end after the Jews have finalised their tribulation. So why should it have occurred? The Jews have not ceased enduring tribulation,
You mock God's word by building fanciful theories.
There is NO WAY in which the seventieth week can be proved to be 'in the future' unless you follow the false idea
of making a 'seven' equal seven years which it patently does NOT.
The seventieth seven clearly explains what happened when the temple was destroyed and it began with Jesus confirming the covenant with the Jews That is undeniable except to a theorist.
Both began with the Roman invasion of Palestine and what followed per Luke
Yes it is the tribulation of the Jews from 66ad onwards to the present timey period of history.
They will occur when the tribulation of the Jews is brought to an end
it is quite plain. The abomination of desolation occurred in 70 AD. The great tribulation (of the Jews) has occurred ever since. Then will come the cataclysmic events.
but that comes at the end after the Jews have finalised their tribulation. So why should it have occurred? The Jews have not ceased enduring tribulation,
You mock God's word by building fanciful theories.
Matthew 24: 21 [FONT="]For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again.
Matthew 24: 21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
Mark 13: [/FONT]19 [FONT="]For there will be greater anguish in those days than at any time since God created the world. And it will never be so great again.
Mark 13: [/FONT]19 [FONT="]for those days shall be tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the creation that God created, till now, and may not be;
Jesus Christ said, that the great tribulation, would be so great that it would never be so great again to the generation at that time. I mean people will take scripture to make it futuristic yet when it so plain.
So it is just one time, a one time event.
[/FONT]
Matthew 24: 21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
Mark 13: [/FONT]19 [FONT="]For there will be greater anguish in those days than at any time since God created the world. And it will never be so great again.
Mark 13: [/FONT]19 [FONT="]for those days shall be tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the creation that God created, till now, and may not be;
Jesus Christ said, that the great tribulation, would be so great that it would never be so great again to the generation at that time. I mean people will take scripture to make it futuristic yet when it so plain.
So it is just one time, a one time event.
[/FONT]
You do realize that this idea is nonsensical? Let's just take the 6th seal events and prove that it is indeed nonsensical.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Mt 24:29)
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mk 13:24,25)
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Lk 21:25,26)
So are the stars still in the heavens or have they fallen down to the earth EVER? Have the powers of heaven been shaken or are the constellations still where they belong? Have the heavens been rolled up as a scrolled and the celestial bodies disappeared?
Do you see how TOTALLY ABSURD it is to claim that the 6th and 7th seal events have already occurred?
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Mt 24:29)
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mk 13:24,25)
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Lk 21:25,26)
So are the stars still in the heavens or have they fallen down to the earth EVER? Have the powers of heaven been shaken or are the constellations still where they belong? Have the heavens been rolled up as a scrolled and the celestial bodies disappeared?
Do you see how TOTALLY ABSURD it is to claim that the 6th and 7th seal events have already occurred?
verse you posted says [And it will never be so great again]
So are you saying 70 ad temple distruction, was worse then ww2?
That's funny because Over 60 million people were killed during World War II
Christ says if he did not return, no man would be left alive.
So how could man destroy themselves with swords and arrows back then?
-
Revelation 9:16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million;
I heard the number of them.
Rev. 9 says there will be an army of two hundred million men in the soon future,
There was not that many people in the whole world back in Jesus day.
So are you saying 70 ad temple distruction, was worse then ww2?
That's funny because Over 60 million people were killed during World War II
Christ says if he did not return, no man would be left alive.
So how could man destroy themselves with swords and arrows back then?
-
Revelation 9:16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million;
I heard the number of them.
Rev. 9 says there will be an army of two hundred million men in the soon future,
There was not that many people in the whole world back in Jesus day.
Brother N6,
These are symbols, the symbols themselves are not literal things. Like, the waters are people Rev 17:15.
The seals show the time period from when Israel rejects the Pentecost gospel kingdom (37 ad approx), until the end of the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad.
This could be literal? Right? This shows a change in the relationship between the earth and the heavens.
The sun is the Law, and the moon is the prophets. Both are lights in the darkness of this world. When Jerusalem falls, those lights are dimmed.
The stars are Israel, as shown in Rev 12:1. The stars falling is Israel falling. The fig tree is showing that.
When the last Christians left Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit was "removed" with them. That ended God's protection over them. shown as a scroll of covenant.
(Rev 6:12-14)
"The mountain" would be Jerusalem Dan 9:16. These mountains and islands are groups of Israelites. As islands in the seas of the gentiles.
-----------
Matt 24 describes the same events. The 70 ad dest. and the time after that known as the times of the gentiles (ToG's).
After Jerusalem is destroyed 70 ad, the light of the Law and prophets to the world is dimmed, beginning the ToG's. The stars that fall are Israelites. (not literal stars)
Same response as above.
Israel, not the planet. The earth of Israel in 70 ad times.
Literal? So all the giant suns, and our sun a star, come crashing to earth? Or are they symbols showing the "fall" of Israel? Like a fig tree shaken? If the stars literally come to planet earth we would be burned up. so it must be symbolic in some form, yes?
The powers of heaven and earth have been shaken many times in the symbolism expressed in the Bible.
The scroll is symbolic of the covenant protection over Jerusalem. When the last Christians left it was removed and Jerusalem was destroyed.
The passage in Lk 23:27-31, 30, proves that this is about the 70 ad destruction, fulfilling those verses. The Lk passage could ONLY have been fulfilled by those specific women of that time.
These are symbols, the symbols themselves are not literal things. Like, the waters are people Rev 17:15.
The seals show the time period from when Israel rejects the Pentecost gospel kingdom (37 ad approx), until the end of the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad.
This could be literal? Right? This shows a change in the relationship between the earth and the heavens.
The sun is the Law, and the moon is the prophets. Both are lights in the darkness of this world. When Jerusalem falls, those lights are dimmed.
The stars are Israel, as shown in Rev 12:1. The stars falling is Israel falling. The fig tree is showing that.
When the last Christians left Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit was "removed" with them. That ended God's protection over them. shown as a scroll of covenant.
(Rev 6:12-14)
"The mountain" would be Jerusalem Dan 9:16. These mountains and islands are groups of Israelites. As islands in the seas of the gentiles.
-----------
Matt 24 describes the same events. The 70 ad dest. and the time after that known as the times of the gentiles (ToG's).
After Jerusalem is destroyed 70 ad, the light of the Law and prophets to the world is dimmed, beginning the ToG's. The stars that fall are Israelites. (not literal stars)
Same response as above.
Israel, not the planet. The earth of Israel in 70 ad times.
Literal? So all the giant suns, and our sun a star, come crashing to earth? Or are they symbols showing the "fall" of Israel? Like a fig tree shaken? If the stars literally come to planet earth we would be burned up. so it must be symbolic in some form, yes?
The powers of heaven and earth have been shaken many times in the symbolism expressed in the Bible.
The scroll is symbolic of the covenant protection over Jerusalem. When the last Christians left it was removed and Jerusalem was destroyed.
The passage in Lk 23:27-31, 30, proves that this is about the 70 ad destruction, fulfilling those verses. The Lk passage could ONLY have been fulfilled by those specific women of that time.
Yes I am saying that pretty much my friend in Christ Jesus, prove-all. There was nothing greater than what once was back then in the end times for christian end time saints.
You saying that there wasn't many people in the whole world back then, is your opinion. How do you know that there could not have been more people ?
The scripture does say what it says, you will have to argue with Jesus Christ about what He has said.
Revelation 9 has nothing to do with the future, that is just staying how many people would have been coming possibly to take over, of course I haven't been taught on Revelation 9 properly to really answer back at you but I believe what Jesus Christ said.