With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?

[thecreationtutor]

The burden of proof - are we debating evidence? like we would with an atheist? Evidence does not ultimately convince anyone - obviously since these arguments are still going on. Worldview issue - many people grow up in a denomination, and that's all they know, they just assume that it's the Biblical Worldview - which isn't necessarily the case

 

[GreenNnice]

The burden of proof - are we debating evidence? like we would with an atheist? Evidence does not ultimately convince anyone - obviously since these arguments are still going on. Worldview issue - many people grow up in a denomination, and that's all they know, they just assume that it's the Biblical Worldview - which isn't necessarily the case

Evidence that demands a verdict ? If something is called 'faith' that is 'unseen, which faith is called in Hebrews 11:1, then, how can one EVER prove that spiritual gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues exist to a ceasationist? Easy answer: They can't.

I wonder, is Josh McDowell with a belief in spiritual gifts continuing on today as God brings them upon people ? Or, does JM belief hold to prophecy, tongues, healing gifts having died out in 1 A.D. after the Canon (bible) was complete ?

 

[GreenNnice]

OK, let's be perfectly honest, the poll is ongoing and 4 votes for continuationists needing to prove that spiritual gifts exist and 1 vote for ceasationists needing to prove that spiritual gifts exist.

Although there is a majority, you can still see the conflict, can't you

 

[presidente]

I suppose it depends on your perspective. If you are an unbeliever, you might say that anyone claiming to do miracles who wants you to believe it has the burden of proof.

But if you are a believer and you say you believe the scriptures and you are talking about Bible doctrine, the burden of proof is clearly on the cessationists. The Bible shows that God does miracles through people, and we have verses like this for the church

I Corinthians 12
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Bible says the Spirit gives these manifestations of the Spirit. If you want to say that he doesn't anymore, the burden of proof is on you. If you want to prove that the Spirit no longer wills to divide them to 'every man', then the burden of proof is on you.

God is sovereign and you have no right to say what He will and will not do. All you can rightly do is show where God said He will or will not do something. If you can't show that God has revealed that these gifts will no longer be given, then you should not be saying He will not give them.

It is an issue of respecting God and His sovereignty.

 

[AvalonXQ]

"with whom"

 

[GreenNnice]

"with whom"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

 

[zone]

Don't forget to vote

With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?: 71.43% say with Continuationists.

so....can that 71.43% see the proof please

 

[GreenNnice]

With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?: 71.43% say with Continuationists.

so....can that 71.43% see the proof please

They can't show you, ohzone And, why God does not show you is His reasons, not mine, not the person who has the miracle healing of cancer happening to them. They can only tell you what the doctors said and what is now the truth of the matter after their church folks prayed for them. They are healed ! That shows you something, doesn't it, milady
But you can be assured that God wants to do a mighty work through you, a lot more than just reading pages out of the bilble and seeing them as all you need to do for faith in Him.

Nope. God wants you to 'move' in His way for your life, and, does that take faith to do? Yes.

'Faith' is an unseen substance. But, it is a substance, Scripture tells us, and, so, it is real, it is there, it is a tangible something that God uses in us to get HIs results for His glory and our blessing, which means a further trust, a further 'talent, a further somethng-something substance to reassure us more of the peace that can only come from Him .

 

[RickyZ]

God does not want to be in charge. That's why He gave His authority over creation to Adam. I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advice, but what happens in creation is up to YOU. That was God's deal with mankind. That's why when mankind gave it away God couldn't just rush in and take over. Because He would be in charge and that is NOT His intent. That's why He had to enter creation as a man, so that when He took back authority it would be in the hands of MAN as He intended. That's why He gave us the Gifts. So that we MEN (women too for you Legalists) can exercise His authority upon this creation. You see, there IS a place for "I" in God's world. It's God's power, it's God's will, it's God's grace, it's God's glory, ALL of it is God's except for one thing: I (you, your name here) MUST PARTICIPATE. That was and remains God's intent all along. That is the purpose of the gifts and why they will not cease until Jesus returns to bring perfection back to this world.

 

[Starcrash]

The logical answer is that anyone who makes a positive claim has the burden of proof. If you believed, for instance, that no one in the world could make an accurate prophecy, then how exactly would you go about proving that? Instead, skepticism demands we that don't believe that something is true until there is evidence to support it. That would mean that we should hold off on believing that spiritual gifts currently exist until someone can give us evidence.

 

[Zmouth]

We hold these Truths to be self-evident.

 

[GreenNnice]

God does not want to be in charge. That's why He gave His authority over creation to Adam. I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advice, but what happens in creation is up to YOU. That was God's deal with mankind. That's why when mankind gave it away God couldn't just rush in and take over. Because He would be in charge and that is NOT His intent. That's why He had to enter creation as a man, so that when He took back authority it would be in the hands of MAN as He intended. That's why He gave us the Gifts. So that we MEN (women too for you Legalists) can exercise His authority upon this creation. You see, there IS a place for "I" in God's world. It's God's power, it's God's will, it's God's grace, it's God's glory, ALL of it is God's except for one thing: I (you, your name here) MUST PARTICIPATE. That was and remains God's intent all along. That is the purpose of the gifts and why they will not cease until Jesus returns to bring perfection back to this world.

God does not want to change things, but, He does, sometimes. We all KNOW God 'grieved' when mankind was sinning in incestual and other sin back in Genesis 'flood' times and so He started over. God promised He would never end the world again by a flood.

I'm sure, God grieved for things that happened like 911 and He CAN alter things but God did, just as RickZee said in giving Adam authority , to "cultivate" and to "guard" the garden (Gen. 2) TODAY God, too, gives man the authoirty to make his own decisions and go his own way ALTHOUGH God's plans WILL get accomplished, ultimately, and God wins . Satan loses. Satan dies. End of story.



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God wants us TODAY to do things, too, a lot more than just sticking our head in the bible, He wants us to LIVE BY FAITH< WALK IN FAITH, and, THAT FAITH must be in Him

 

[ForthAngel]

God does not want to be in charge. That's why He gave His authority over creation to Adam. I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advice, but what happens in creation is up to YOU. That was God's deal with mankind. That's why when mankind gave it away God couldn't just rush in and take over. Because He would be in charge and that is NOT His intent. That's why He had to enter creation as a man, so that when He took back authority it would be in the hands of MAN as He intended. That's why He gave us the Gifts. So that we MEN (women too for you Legalists) can exercise His authority upon this creation. You see, there IS a place for "I" in God's world. It's God's power, it's God's will, it's God's grace, it's God's glory, ALL of it is God's except for one thing: I (you, your name here) MUST PARTICIPATE. That was and remains God's intent all along. That is the purpose of the gifts and why they will not cease until Jesus returns to bring perfection back to this world.

Hi Ricky. Do you believe something along these lines?

[video=youtube;thQVoSNnap4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thQVoSNnap4[/video]

 

[thecreationtutor]

OK, let's be perfectly honest, the poll is ongoing and 4 votes for continuationists needing to prove that spiritual gifts exist and 1 vote for ceasationists needing to prove that spiritual gifts exist.

Although there is a majority, you can still see the conflict, can't you

faulty appeal to majority

 

[thecreationtutor]

The gifts are just that a gift that God gives - many people do false things because God didn't tell them anything

 

[oldhermit]

With who lies the burden of proof to prove spiritual gifts DO or DO NOT exist today ?

If I said I could jump across the Mississippi River, with whom would the burden of proof lie, with me or the one who claims I can't?

 

[GreenNnice]

The gifts are just that a gift that God gives - many people do false things because God didn't tell them anything

Why doesn't God just heal someone of cancer? Why does He work His 'gifts' through us ?

How can either cessatioinist or a continuationist EVER hope to prove that spiritual gifts are one way or another to each other when God speaks to someone He is to do work through, let's call that person, 'workmanship.'

Are we all His 'workmanship" is a question to you.

What does that mean, for us to be His workmanship . Did He just make us and we are supposed to read our bible and just follow it's rules, or, is it ALL of that and MORE, like, 'we are created to do good works.' Of course, to do good works when one is in a sinful fleshy body requires what ? FAITH

We have to have faith in Him , in His leading us through the work that we are to do and are doing as His Spirit leads in us, does this make sense?

Hopefully no one thinks I AM setting a standard for what MUST be done in our Christian lives. No ! We are supposed to, as creationteacher tells us, to just continue to read The Word and to appreciate it's work and to live our lives in a mode of understanding that God CAN and WILL use us when He needs something done that requires work, that requires....

....faith in Him. We all can work for Him in our life, and, should, the spiritual gifts are given us in this kind of scenario 'who knew.' You, certainly, don't, except, maybe, I don't know, I guess, God can tell you, but, He says Himself that we are to believe without having needed a SIGN

 

[BradC]

I do not know the answer to this question but would like to ask it. Other than the four gospels, how much or what percentage of the inspired NT writings, that we have been given, would we have to say is no more applicable for NT believers if we were to believe that the gifts of the Spirit given to the church are no more operational, nor active or needed?

 

[RickyZ]

Hi Ricky. Do you believe something along these lines?

[video=youtube;thQVoSNnap4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thQVoSNnap4[/video]

I think he's got the right idea, but isn't necessarily expressing it the best way. Where he says 'prayer is giving God license to act on earth', it's more like God has given us license to participate. Think about it, at some point spiritual blessings have to translate from spiritual to physical. That is why the gifts are given thru us not to us. Which is why God wants our participation, to be the conduit by which His Spiritual power and compassion may physically enter this world.

Again, the one and only thing I can possibly bring to the table is my participation. That's it. God honors our desire to participate, and says here are the tools you'll need to do just that.

And these tools are available until He returns to make us and our world perfect. They cease at that point because they become moot at that point.

Now stop yammering about Him being dormant, and instead seek out what of His you can take part in today!

 

[zone]

I think he's got the right idea, but isn't necessarily expressing it the best way. Where he says 'prayer is giving God license to act on earth', it's more like God has given us license to participate. Think about it, at some point spiritual blessings have to translate from spiritual to physical. That is why the gifts are given thru us not to us. Which is why God wants our participation, to be the conduit by which His Spiritual power and compassion may physically enter this world.

Again, the one and only thing I can possibly bring to the table is my participation. That's it. God honors our desire to participate, and says here are the tools you'll need to do just that.

And these tools are available until He returns to make us and our world perfect. They cease at that point because they become moot at that point.

Now stop yammering about Him being dormant, and instead seek out what of His you can take part in today!

oh wow....i notice no rebuke of the heresy in the video.

this is just another way of saying what the other guy said:

it's more like God has given us license to participate. Think about it, at some point spiritual blessings have to translate from spiritual to physical. That is why the gifts are given thru us not to us. Which is why God wants our participation, to be the conduit by which His Spiritual power and compassion may physically enter this world.

this is just WRONG.

you say cessationist have God being dormant.
YOU have God sitting on His hands unable or UNWILLING to do ANYTHING for the Church or anyone else UNLESS certain gifted/full faith individuals step up and DO.

DO THIS.....then God WILL DO THAT.

that's LAW....quid pro quo.

that's NOT the God of Mercy and Power Who acts according to His Own Plan.

He doesn't NEED us to co-operate or flash our license to to participate before He does ANYTHING, especially in the miraculous realm.

what kind of God is THIS that can't or won't do anything UNTIL man steps up and takes control?

nonsense.