With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?

[oldhermit]

presidente
Unless you have scripture to support your claim, the burden of proof is on you.

If you can show from the Bible that a believer may be able to jump the Mississippi, then I'll believe that a believer may be able to jump the Mississippi. As for your individual case, if you want to prove it, you have to prove it. If you can make a case for jumping the Mississippi being the type of miracle God would have a believer do, consider the evidence of your lack of faith for miracles, your claim would be particularly suspect.

Your are missing the point friend. The gifts were the proof in themselves. They NEVER required additional verification, they could never be doubted (not even by the unbelieving) and their authenticity could never be challenged. I have seen dozens of people who claimed to have one "gift" or another and when challenged the proof always failed. The burden proof lies with the one who claims the gift, not with the one who doubts. If you feel you are someone you know has a particular gift of the spiritual variety, I would challenge you in person-to-person public forum to demonstrate your gift. If the gift is authentic, it will stand on its own power and will need no verification beyond its self. If is it not, the fraud is easily exposed.

 

[presidente]

Your are missing the point friend. The gifts were the proof in themselves. They NEVER required additional verification, they could never be doubted (not even by the unbelieving) and their authenticity could never be challenged.

Show me where the Bible says this. I can think of one case where the authorities did not deny a miracle because it was too obvious, but have you read John 9? The Pharisees were still unbelief about what happened even after interviewing the man who was healed. Some of Christ's wouldn't believe His casting out of demons was of God, and attributed it to the devil. Opponents of the truth tried to make the miracles out like they didn't happen or that there wasn't enough evidence. If they couldn't do that, they'd ignore it, or beat the miracle workers, or attribute the miracles to the devil.

Btw, do you think the Pharisees believed that God raised Jesus from the dead? Reading Acts, it sure seemed like the Saducees denied that miracle and the resurrection at the last day even after Jesus rose from the dead. If Christ's miracles were undeniable even to the unbelieving, why did one of his own disciples not believe in it for a while?

 

[oldhermit]

Show me where the Bible says this. I can think of one case where the authorities did not deny a miracle because it was too obvious, but have you read John 9? The Pharisees were still unbelief about what happened even after interviewing the man who was healed. Some of Christ's wouldn't believe His casting out of demons was of God, and attributed it to the devil. Opponents of the truth tried to make the miracles out like they didn't happen or that there wasn't enough evidence. If they couldn't do that, they'd ignore it, or beat the miracle workers, or attribute the miracles to the devil.

They never denied the miracle, they denied the source of the miracle. My challenge still stands. I have made this challenge before. Doesn't anyone have the confidence in their gift to come to my home town and prove publically and openly before professionals in the given field that they are so gifted by the Holy Spirit?

 

[GreenNnice]

Let's take this thread to another level, since no one wants to comment on my new thread about being 'fully known' and seeing through the glass dimly until Scripture came and we saw IT face to face (except ohzone, and, she don't count, Oh, ya know, I Love ya, milady )

Personally, being 'fully known' speaks to me in terms of SOMEONE having known me without MY KNOWING them.

Does this make sense ? This, of course, is from 1 Corinthians 13 lore, the verse that cessationists HANG their burden of proof for NO more tongues being spoken (it's all FAKE!), no more healings by others God uses by laying their hands on them (it's all fake ! ) and, no more prophecy of things that can build up a church/correct a church, and, if a church is clueless then yes, this is NEW KNOWLEDGE that church needs to know, no?


But, anyway, yeah, let's try and head away from the judging of one over their way of thinking of healing needing physically seen to believe in as eg says and I GET THAT, I understand why that can be a stumbling block to reformed Lutheran faith and some other faiths too, in fact, all denominations, probably have people who have faith in no gifts, LOL, I just say 'LOL' because of the opposite way I phrased things

But, yeah, here's the verses that are BURDEN OF PROOF for both SIDES beliefs in spiritual gifts of healing, tongues, prophecy, knowledge, having DIED out. Oh, wait, healings, is not actualy mentioned in this passage, so ex it out please.

If I speak in the tongues[SUP]a[/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP]b[/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Now, please, I ask you, to speak SPECIFICALLY to this 1 Corinthians 13 chapter, or, to LIST your own verse(s) as your burden of proof for why gifts exist or no longer exist.

I want the next poster to copy and paste the GREEN BOLDFACED sentence this BEFORE giving their answer

And, then the NEXT poster to do the same, in fact, until I say different--since this is my thread (the Lord leads)--I want EVERY SINGLE person that posts to copy/paste the BOLDFACED GREEN SENTENCE before then typing there own verse(s) .,

K ? Got it ?????

Thank you , you great God people you

 

[AvalonXQ]

And, then the NEXT poster to do the same, in fact, until I say different--since this is my thread (the Lord leads)--I want EVERY SINGLE person that posts to copy/paste the BOLDFACED GREEN SENTENCE before then typing there own verse(s).

God bless you, but there is no basis for you to require every poster to copy-paste a particular sentence of yours. Just because you are the OP of the thread does not mean you control it.

 

[GreenNnice]

God bless you, but there is no basis for you to require every poster to copy-paste a particular sentence of yours. Just because you are the OP of the thread does not mean you control it.

You're right, avaloner !

I 'want' the next poster to copy and paste this into their post and to bring the thread to the nuts and bolts of what's needed here, NO MORE judgment, NO MORE he said, she said, but just 'He said.'

BRING YOUR BIBLE verses to the table that SUPPORT your belief in spiritual gifts--tongues, prophecy, healing, knowledge.

Can the TESTIMONY it ain't working on the cessasionists , I ASSURE you, although, SMUDGE ! your long post #52 was TOUGH to not see a little something in it, I think, but, sigh, I'm just green what do I know. Right, cessasionists

thanks !

Copy and paste these words before you answer :
Now, please, I ask you, to speak SPECIFICALLY to this 1 Corinthians 13 chapter, or, to LIST your own verse(s) as your burden of proof for why gifts exist or no longer exist.

 

[GreenNnice]

Or, don't . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's just I want to, instead, of just bantering back and forth about things of self-knowledge, let's BURDEN our proof with His knowledge in His words

 

[RickyZ]

Luke 17:6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

Anybody seen any mulberry trees uprooted lately? Wow I guess faith ceased in 70 AD too.

'Could explain why a faithless generation seeks signs and will be shown none.

 

[RickyZ]

I am sorry to hear about your mother Zone. But that doesn't change anything. You are still faithless, you still seek proof of God's benevolence, you still seek proof that His word and His promises are eternal, you still blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and God still wants to work a miracle in you. And you still stand in His way.

That is the burden my dear. Yes the individual circumstance you sought change in is no longer valid, but your lack of faith remains.

That is the burden that will not go away.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I am sorry to hear about your mother Zone. But that doesn't change anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You claimed that God told you He could work a miracle to heal zone's mother in hospice - when, unknown to you, she was already dead.

My brother, it seems to me pretty clear that either whom you are hearing is not God, or you are not understanding what He is saying - because what you have claimed that He told you was false. Respectfully, zone's mother was three weeks dead and no longer in hospice.

In the light of specific evidence that what you believed God told you turned out not to be true, shouldn't you evaluate whether you are actually able to hear and correctly understand messages from God?

 

[zone]

I am sorry to hear about your mother Zone. But that doesn't change anything. You are still faithless, you still seek proof of God's benevolence, you still seek proof that His word and His promises are eternal, you still blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and God still wants to work a miracle in you. And you still stand in His way.

That is the burden my dear. Yes the individual circumstance you sought change in is no longer valid, but your lack of faith remains.

That is the burden that will not go away.

thanks ricky.

~

- no, i have strong faith - a gift

- i know God is Good - He doesn't need me before He can be Good, or do Good. He can only ever do Good.

- i do not need proof that His word and His promises are eternal

- i do not need signs that His word and His promises are eternal

- somebody is possibly blaspheming the Holy Spirit - we just disagree on who that would be.

- God has worked a miracle in me.

- no one can stand in His way....maybe you are thinking of some other god.

- i'm not lacking faith in God, i just don't believe your stories....though you might.

- believing God has nothing to do with believing you.

- you should feel burdened...this is top-tier, classic charismatic manipulation:

you make the claim to have the gifts of great faith & healing, and the power & faith to work miracles...then pass the buck to someone else when you can't back up your claim of authority.

authority you don't even have to ask God for - He said you already have it.
so how is your unwillingness to use your authority anyone else's fault?

and lastly, it changes everything - as far as your credibility goes.
your claim was about a specific miracle God wanted to perform at a specific location. He laid it on you, apparently.
3 weeks after it was impossible.

now you just move the shells around again.
i see this rubbish continually in your movement.
sorry for you.

 

[RickyZ]

Correct me if I'm wrong. You claimed that God told you He could work a miracle to heal zone's mother in hospice - when, unknown to you, she was already dead.

My brother, it seems to me pretty clear that either whom you are hearing is not God, or you are not understanding what He is saying - because what you have claimed that He told you was false. Respectfully, zone's mother was three weeks dead and no longer in hospice.

In the light of specific evidence that what you believed God told you turned out not to be true, shouldn't you evaluate whether you are actually able to hear and correctly understand messages from God?

No, I never said I was going to heal Zone's mom. I said God still wants to work a miracle in the hospice. Truth be told I knew Zone's mom would pass before somethng would happen, and that the true healing word for her was to stop suffering and go home. Zone I'm sorry I didn't pass that along, but I figured it wouldn't be received well. No, the miracle I offered to participate in, and still do, is one that she will accept as a bonafide working of the Love of God thru His gifts. Maybe I just blew that by not passing that word long ago that her mom was going to pass no matter what. But I doubted, and a possible gift got stymied. Lord forgive me and help me learn.

Doubt, my dear friends, is the enemy of God. Doubt stops it all right in it's tracks. Go figure that I be the one to demonstrate.

I stand by what I said. God still wants to work a miracle there, and I'm still willing to participate. But Zone's doubt and hardness of heart and mind stand in the way. Make the ground fertile, Zone, and with God's call I'll come sow you a seed. But I'm not going to go tread among serpents. Lord knows I've got enough of them to deal with here.

 

[RickyZ]

And yes I evaluate my relationship with God all the time. If you read any of my threads you'll find that I'll correct myself on things no one else has pointed out. Earlier there was a tangent about my not quoting scripture. Believe me that is something I wrestle with every day. Because the posters were absolutely right, everything we do and say should be backed by scripture. And it's not like I'm a stranger to them, I've spent thousands of hours in personal study, and even 3 years in Bible College to get a formal perspective. But every time I pray about it, it keeps coming back to me that God has more than enough people with their noses in the Book, and far too few with their boots on the ground. One more person quoting the same verses and arguments that are already being very well quoted and argued here is not going to make a difference. But one person explaining how he spoke to the waters in the Name of Jesus, and stirred up the waves, and connected it in the name of the Lord to the stirred up heart and mind of a child just might.

IF, one was open to such a thing.

The poll on that one is 13 - 3 btw.

Have faith. Believe. You may not always get it right but at least you'll try. And trying is the first step to success.

 

[Apostol2013]

13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. In john 7:37 it is written 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Now jesus came to give the spirit as many that ask but to deny or disbelive his power through his spirit is no good and the mind nor the spirit is not readyaand in some cases forsaken if we dont belive and receive his spirit

 

[RickyZ]

Amen. Better to be held accountable for being overzealous, than for being - and promoting - faithlessness.

Good 'luck' all of you in the coming tribulation judgment.