With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?

[GRA]

Ricky:

Zone, d@##!t, I've still got you blocked and don't read your responses (again, my bad not yours), but I am so burdened of the Spirit that God does want to do a miracle in your hospice, but that YOU are standing in the way by way of your disbelief.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Now if in the coming days someone else says something along the same lines, take note. And if a third witness says the same, you'd best listen up. That's how it works.

You know that "cussing" is "looked down upon" on this site -- right?

If God is burdening YOU with it -- that means He wants YOU to perform it -- right?

( Otherwise, why would He burden YOU with it? )

BTW that's in Matt. 18:16

BTW you are using this verse out of context --- what you said in the previous quote does not match or illustrate properly what this verse is saying...

She is indeed a marvel of memorization, there's no doubting that. I just react badly to her dismissive attitude and her total lack of practical experience. Blocking her isn't to keep her from preaching, but to keep me from reacting.

"react badly" ? "keep me from reacting" ??

What happened to... ??? :

Galatians 5:

[SUP]22[/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [SUP]23[/SUP] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

"If you are so full of the Spirit --- why does she affect you this way???"

zone is but one of several people on here ( you are one of them ) with whom I am in agreement about some things and in disagreement about others. It does not "bother me" to the point of being "reactionary" -- I relate to them as the personalities that I perceive them to be.

We ( any one of these people, and myself ) can "agree to disagree agreeably" enough to maintain a kind regard.

We will all have equal opportunity to stand before God and find out where, when, and wherein - we were wrong...

I rather like the idea of Truth being my closest companion. No one else should have a greater effect on me.

I have never "blocked" anyone on CC. If I truly do not care to read what someone has written on a particular topic -- I just "scroll past" their post...

Remember that "reactionary" has a lot less to do with the one who "triggers" the reaction -- and a lot more to do with the one doing the reacting...

 

[GreenNnice]

Ricky:


You know that "cussing" is "looked down upon" on this site -- right?

If God is burdening YOU with it -- that means He wants YOU to perform it -- right?

( Otherwise, why would He burden YOU with it? )



BTW you are using this verse out of context --- what you said in the previous quote does not match or illustrate properly what this verse is saying...



"react badly" ? "keep me from reacting" ??

What happened to... ??? :

Galatians 5:

[SUP]22[/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [SUP]23[/SUP] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

"If you are so full of the Spirit --- why does she affect you this way???"

zone is but one of several people on here ( you are one of them ) with whom I am in agreement about some things and in disagreement about others. It does not "bother me" to the point of being "reactionary" -- I relate to them as the personalities that I perceive them to be.

We ( any one of these people, and myself ) can "agree to disagree agreeably" enough to maintain a kind regard.

We will all have equal opportunity to stand before God and find out where, when, and wherein - we were wrong...

I rather like the idea of Truth being my closest companion. No one else should have a greater effect on me.

I have never "blocked" anyone on CC. If I truly do not care to read what someone has written on a particular topic -- I just "scroll past" their post...

Remember that "reactionary" has a lot less to do with the one who "triggers" the reaction -- and a lot more to do with the one doing the reacting...

GeeaReA, I think that one needs to understand that we are human and rickzee's been persecuted and tarred, and, feathered by cessatioinists because he on c.c. is probably the most outspoken about healings really having happened in his life and he wants opporunity to even show people who would come and visit his house.

In fact, one time, rickzee, I remember, just genuinely wanted to offer to help someone SEE what God was doing in His life through the gifts as he saw were happening in his home church and life, inviting this person to their house , he and his wife's place.

The person took a complete offense to the person's invite and brutally attacked them and accused them of things I can't repeat because the words, although not swear words , were words of hate, and, it really just extremely explains the extreme hate of some toward someone who lives their life in a faith sort of way that includes godly living of desiring the gifts in a great way.

And, no, I am not saying I am needing the gifts to believe or have faith, and, I don't believe rickzee believes that way either, but God has rickzee on fire for God in 'this' way.

And, that is neat to see for me, this incredible shining desire to work things of God through others' lives and that is what, I think, was the request harmlessly asked the person to come to his and his wife's house to see who he really was and how he really believed. And, yes, I can see some 'awkward' in that kind of thing, especially of two opposite spectrum doctrine beliefs, but, I also see rickzee's heart and it is one of Love

 

[zone]

GeeaReA, I think that one needs to understand that we are human and rickzee's been persecuted and tarred, and, feathered by cessatioinists because he on c.c.

can you explain

1) why God would burden Person A about person B's lack of faith....letting Person A know God really really WANTED to perform a miracle for Person B, but couldn't.

2) why Person A would claim yesterday God has this burden on him....when the miracle God supposedly really really wanted to perform was not possible (at that location - any other location would have meant an entirely different miracle - hint lazarus), and hadn't been possible for weeks.

3) wouldn't God know that already? was God burdening Person A because He lost track of events in Person B's life?

4) or is Person A being dishonest, and manipulative, and spiritually abusive by laying a guilt trip on Person B - when the whole thing was off by 3 weeks, and could not have been coming from God?

 

[RickyZ]

GRA, Green, thank you both. Yes cursing isn't something we're supposed to take part in and it is indeed a thorn in my side (and the source of my infraction.) And yes my bad reaction to Zone is just that, my bad, it is something I am praying over but until I receive freedom from that it's best I just not leave that door open for myself. You good people don't need to see my bad side.

And yes the verse from Matthew was (kinda) out of context. Again that's why I resist scripture quotes, the big picture is that God's word is established thru multiple witnesses, but what I held up was but one piece of the jigsaw puzzle that makes up that picture. So by itself yes indeed it is incomplete for the use I put it to. But the point it illustrates is still valid.

The fact is that, I'm still a fallible human. Thank God that He does in fact still use fallible humans!

For the record, I actually offered to go there (as opposed to inviting her to come here). And even tho others have counseled me to drop the idea I haven't. But it would be counter productive to go when the effort would be marred by rocky, un-fertile grounds. And again, it's not really necessary for me to go, what's necessary is for those who are already there TO HAVE FAITH AND BELIEVE. But thank you Green for the backup.

God does indeed have me on fire. He has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of His way to bring me an understanding and experience in these things, and it is my wish and desire to bring that understanding to others. Especially when denying the Gifts of the Spirit lies so close to blaspheme of the Spirit. It is a very dangerous precipice to stand upon, and it is my heartfelt desire to back those standing there away from that ledge.

May God give me the grace - and words - to do just that.

 

[zone]

Zone, d@##!t, I've still got you blocked and don't read your responses (again, my bad not yours), but I am so burdened of the Spirit that God does want to do a miracle in your hospice, but that YOU are standing in the way by way of your disbelief.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Now if in the coming days someone else says something along the same lines, take note. And if a third witness says the same, you'd best listen up. That's how it works.

my mother passed away August 24th at 7:50am, ricky.

did she die because of my unbelief?
ask God for me...would you?

after you let Him know she died 3 weeks ago.
maybe He could take that burden off you.

thanks for giving Him the message for me ricky.
i don't know what He would do without you.

can you explain

1) why God would burden Person A about person B's lack of faith....letting Person A know God really really WANTED to perform a miracle for Person B, but couldn't.

2) why Person A would claim yesterday God has this burden on him....when the miracle God supposedly really really wanted to perform was not possible (at that location - any other location would have meant an entirely different miracle - hint lazarus), and hadn't been possible for weeks.

3) wouldn't God know that already? was God burdening Person A because He lost track of events in Person B's life?

4) or is Person A being dishonest, and manipulative, and spiritually abusive by laying a guilt trip on Person B - when the whole thing was off by 3 weeks, and could not have been coming from God?

GRA, Green, thank you both. Yes cursing isn't something we're supposed to take part in and it is indeed a thorn in my side (and the source of my infraction.) And yes my bad reaction to Zone is just that, my bad, it is something I am praying over but until I receive freedom from that it's best I just not leave that door open for myself. You good people don't need to see my bad side.

And yes the verse from Matthew was (kinda) out of context. Again that's why I resist scripture quotes, the big picture is that God's word is established thru multiple witnesses, but what I held up was but one piece of the jigsaw puzzle that makes up that picture. So by itself yes indeed it is incomplete for the use I put it to. But the point it illustrates is still valid.

The fact is that, I'm still a fallible human. Thank God that He does in fact still use fallible humans!

For the record, I actually offered to go there (as opposed to inviting her to come here). And even tho others have counseled me to drop the idea I haven't. But it would be counter productive to go when the effort would be marred by rocky, un-fertile grounds. And again, it's not really necessary for me to go, what's necessary is for those who are already there TO HAVE FAITH AND BELIEVE. But thank you Green for the backup.

God does indeed have me on fire. He has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of His way to bring me an understanding and experience in these things, and it is my wish and desire to bring that understanding to others. Especially when denying the Gifts of the Spirit lies so close to blaspheme of the Spirit. It is a very dangerous precipice to stand upon, and it is my heartfelt desire to back those standing there away from that ledge.

May God give me the grace - and words - to do just that.

would someone please just quote this post above so ricky can see it and stop lying?

[video=youtube;3tigVYfHVmQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tigVYfHVmQ&list=PL9A0C6A72B129E02A[/video]

or just go ahead keep lying.

With who lies the burden of proof to prove spiritual gifts DO or DO NOT exist today ?

 

[oldhermit]

With who lies the burden of proof to prove spiritual gifts DO or DO NOT exist today ?

Did you know that I can jump across the Mississippi River at its widest point and at flood stage?

 

[zone]

Did you know that I can jump across the Mississippi River at its widest point and at flood stage?

wow....i'm not sure i believe you.

but here: let me prove it. i'll......

 

[oldhermit]

wow....i'm not sure i believe you.

but here: let me prove it. i'll......

Prove me wrong.

 

[zone]

Prove me wrong.

okay. would you please jump across so i can witness it?
if you do it, then you were right.
if you do and fail, or refuse to do it...well...what's the next step for me?

maybe i should just have faith you can do it. you sound like a good guy.

and if you can do it....maybe i can too!

OKAY! i'm going to try it - wish me luck!
bye for now!

 

[oldhermit]

okay. would you please jump across so i can witness it?
if you do it, then you were right.
if you do and fail, or refuse to do it...well...what's the next step for me?

maybe i should just have faith you can do it. you sound like a good guy.

and if you can do it....maybe i can too!

OKAY! i'm going to try it - wish me luck!
bye for now!

I don't have to do anything. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[zone]

I don't have to do anything. The burden of proof is on you.

WHA???? HE-E-E-E-ELP!

 

[GreenNnice]

I don't have to do anything. The burden of proof is on you.

Explain this, oldherm, thx


------------------------

 

[presidente]

Did you know that I can jump across the Mississippi River at its widest point and at flood stage?

Show in the Bible where you can jump the Mississippi and maybe you have a case. If it plainly said you could, and I claim to believe the Bible, then the burden of proof would be on me that the scripture does not apply.

 

[oldhermit]

Show in the Bible where you can jump the Mississippi and maybe you have a case. If it plainly said you could, and I claim to believe the Bible, then the burden of proof would be on me that the scripture does not apply.

I don't need to show you anything. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You want proof?

If these things were still around. People would go to hospitals. where the sick need God and heal them. They would go where the sinners are, and heal them. They would go to where people do nto speak their language, And speak to them in their own language, even though they do not know it to spread the gospel and teach Gods word. They would visit false churches (as Jesus and the apostles did when they went to the judiazer synogogs teaching a false gospel) and heal people in there. proving their gospel was correct.

Unfortunately. I see this no place around the churches.. So the burden of proof has failed to take place.

Neither Jesus nor the apostles did it in their OWN churches as these gifts were not needed their. They did not have to prove to people who already Know God he is real (gifts are signs of the message of Christ is from God) thus anyone who does this, has already proven themselves to be false.

 

[GreenNnice]

can you explain

1) why God would burden Person A about person B's lack of faith....letting Person A know God really really WANTED to perform a miracle for Person B, but couldn't.

2) why Person A would claim yesterday God has this burden on him....when the miracle God supposedly really really wanted to perform was not possible (at that location - any other location would have meant an entirely different miracle - hint lazarus), and hadn't been possible for weeks.

3) wouldn't God know that already? was God burdening Person A because He lost track of events in Person B's life?

4) or is Person A being dishonest, and manipulative, and spiritually abusive by laying a guilt trip on Person B - when the whole thing was off by 3 weeks, and could not have been coming from God?

OHzone, my comment was meant to show others that the Lord leads them differently in their faith and that by their very understanding of God working in their lives, spiritual gifts or no spiritual gifts believing, there can become confilict of an extraordinarily atrocious level.


I agree, too, ohzone, there is no need for one to 'burden' another with thoughts of my belief,

But, on the opposite spectrum, to verbally bite someone's head off who says something that's 'Love' from THEIR BELIEF in doctrine, like someone did to another, is going beyond just saying, 'no, thank you. I believe differently than you, sorry, I wish we could get together and discuss things but I know where that's gone with me before talking to people of the 'gifts' and I DON'T want to go there again.'

That's NOT what this person decided to say

'Course, not everyone can do that, I understand that, too, by virtue of the fact I dont understand one person's belief of doctrine and how it is UNWRITTEN that they feel they have to help the other person they are in conflict of doctine with to keep them judGed by you.

'You are adding to God's Word or you, TOO, are in danger of blaspheme or whatever YOU want to call it you are doing that endangers my faith.'

It's just a viscious merrry-go round with no viscosity hope of ever slowing down


I think, it's just enough for the both of the parties confilcted over each other's doctine views to realize that Christ died for both of YOU and that YOUR salvations both are locked away in your having decided to believe in Him and make Him your sure foundation with whom no toil can tear against, because of your unstoppable, unflappable, eternal faith in Him

I hope, pray, this shows what the Lord wants me to show others, I did not mean to bring back past stuff.
The Lord leads

 

[presidente]

I don't need to show you anything. The burden of proof is on you.

Unless you have scripture to support your claim, the burden of proof is on you.

If you can show from the Bible that a believer may be able to jump the Mississippi, then I'll believe that a believer may be able to jump the Mississippi. As for your individual case, if you want to prove it, you have to prove it. If you can make a case for jumping the Mississippi being the type of miracle God would have a believer do, consider the evidence of your lack of faith for miracles, your claim would be particularly suspect.

 

[GreenNnice]

You want proof?

If these things were still around. People would go to hospitals. where the sick need God and heal them. They would go where the sinners are, and heal them. They would go to where people do nto speak their language, And speak to them in their own language, even though they do not know it to spread the gospel and teach Gods word. They would visit false churches (as Jesus and the apostles did when they went to the judiazer synogogs teaching a false gospel) and heal people in there. proving their gospel was correct.

Unfortunately. I see this no place around the churches.. So the burden of proof has failed to take place.

Neither Jesus nor the apostles did it in their OWN churches as these gifts were not needed their. They did not have to prove to people who already Know God he is real (gifts are signs of the message of Christ is from God) thus anyone who does this, has already proven themselves to be false.

Here is what Hebrews 11 says, eg, I know you know this verse, bro :

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

By faith, do you understand, or, less harsh word, do you 'believe' people are healed , based on the message of THIS verse, eg ??

Why, OH, WHY this unbelief in His substance called 'faith,' my friends

The Lord leads. I've seen NO one healed in my life, but I've surely HEARD of people healed by God, by the laying on of hands in prayer, isn't that enough PROOF for me

 

[presidente]

Eternally gratefull wrote

You want proof?

If these things were still around. People would go to hospitals. where the sick need God and heal them. They would go where the sinners are, and heal them.

I wonder if any of other people sitting around the pool waiting for the moving of the water, maybe some of the blind, said the same thing when they heard about the blind man being healed. They might have said, "If Jesus is really healing, why doesn't He come out here to where the sick people are and heal all of them. Why doesn't he heal that lame man in the temple by the Gate Beautiful?" Then they could have refused to believe until they saw that.

Of course, if they did, that would be a foolish line of reasoning. The evidence of healing is the people who are healed, not those who are not.

They would go to where people do nto speak their language, And speak to them in their own language, even though they do not know it to spread the gospel and teach Gods word.

In Acts 2, speaking in tongues gathered a crowd and even drew some scoffers. People repented after Peter preached.

They would visit false churches (as Jesus and the apostles did when they went to the judiazer synogogs teaching a false gospel) and heal people in there. proving their gospel was correct.

The synagogues back then, I've read, had an open format where locals and visitors could discuss and debate topics during a Bible discussion. Most churches don't have that. Most so-called churches don't have that. There is no evidence of Christ or the apostles going into Samaritan synagogues, like the one in Thessalonica, and doing what they did in the synagogue of the Jews.
Unfortunately. I see this no place around the churches.. So the burden of proof has failed to take place.

Neither Jesus nor the apostles did it in their OWN churches as these gifts were not needed their. They did not have to prove to people who already Know God he is real (gifts are signs of the message of Christ is from God) thus anyone who does this, has already proven themselves to be false.

Maybe you haven't read the thread or haven't really studied I Corinthians 14, but the passage talks about the proper use of spiritual gifts to edify the body, including the use of tongues and interpretation. In chapter 12, healing and miracles are among the gifts given to members of the body to 'profit withal.' They are for the edification of the church. We also see in scripture that signs and wonders were used in evangelism. It's not a case of either or. It's both.

 

[presidente]

Btw, eternally gratefull's proof reminds me of the agnostic's or atheist's 'proof' for their belief in no existence of God. So many of them point to evil in the world.

They reason that if there were a God, He would do things in some way they think He should, and if He doesn't, they don't believe in him.

EG's argument is that if these things were going on, they would happen in some way he/she thinks they should, and otherwise EG does not believe they happen.