Would you sacrifice your child if God asked you to?

[Simeon]

Here is another way how the Bible link the word "deceived" to mean stretch out or entrap.

When you have been 'set up" then your trap

What? A Booby trap?

A booby trap is a device or setup that is intended to kill, harm or surprise a person, unknowingly triggered by the presence or actions of the victim. As the word trap implies, they sometimes have some form of bait designed to lure the victim towards it. At other times, the trap is set to act upon trespassers that violate personal or restricted areas. The device can be triggered when the victim performs some type of everyday action e.g. opening a door, picking something up or switching something on. They can also be triggered by vehicles driving along a road as in the case of victim-operated improvised explosive devices (IED's).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby_trap

Really ? So you are saying that seting up an idol in his heart, in this context, is not worshipping an idol, but is that person litteraly seting up a trap in the shape of an idol inside his own heart ? Man, you are getting too far here. For the sake of making sure i checked other versions of the bible to see how this passage was translated. Most of them do not use ''set up in his heart'' in ezek 14:7 but ''worshiping''. Check it out yourself. In the context they mean the same. Your disgression about booby traps is plain ridiculous. The passage doesn't talk about God setting up those guys, but about those guys seting up idols in their hearts, worshiping them.
My friend this is yet one more example of you going out of your way to prove yourself right at the expense of truth. You are a living example of confirmation bias.


(If anybody else is reading this, I wouldn't mind somebody else letting our friend Fredo know he is pushing it a bit here.)

 

[Simeon]

I am just beginning to read your post in detail and found many holes to dismiss your claim. What you are trying to convey about independent check and how to do that is found in the scriptures. Believe it or not! you are following what the scriptures says of your own suggestions...I will let scriptures speaks

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me
.2 Timothy Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So, we need to search and study! and as to your concern of your distrust about the Bible, believe it or not! King Solomon, the wisest King of israel has already known your case as your study is a "weariness to the flesh"

Eccl. 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much studyis a weariness of the flesh.

Please don't blame me of putting or bombarding you with many scriptures because I Believe the Bible.

You really don't understand what i'm telling you, do you ?
I don't mind the quotes, what i do mind is that you don't make the effort to understand what i'm telling you. If you are just starting to read my posts in detail, then what were you talking about before ? You are not even reading what i say ! How can you even try to refute what you haven't even read ? You haven't considered my arguments at all, you have established that i disagreed with you and so endeavored to show me i was wrong. Have you ever considered the possibility that you were wrong ? Don't you understand about the importance in recognizing that you could be wrong so you can make sure you aren't by testing whether you are wrong or not ? I mean, if you don't, then it is hopeless, i'm entirely wasting my time talking to you because you are not interested in the truth.

 

[Simeon]

Revelation?(question mark) you said but let me help you a little in here if you may . NO, it's not revelation. It's about Illumination. The one we are discussing...We cannot separate the Holy Spirit in here because He is the author of it. If He is the author of it, He knows it, you need Him...It starts when we humble ourselves ask His guidance and what the Holy Spirit is saying you need Jesus Christ the Saviour. Jesus said and I quote:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the truth, if you wanted to seek the truth, the only way is Christ! Christ words are truth, believe in Him and what he says because God loves you! He wanted to give you life and the life is eternal life, that's God's promise.

O I love your soul in the Lord....praying for you. Nice day!

Okay, Jesus words are truth, okay... now, which words ? Let me illustrate to you the problem we have with an example:


According to Matthew 5:18, Jesus said that not the tiniest bit of the Law could be changed.
However, in Mark 7:19 Jesus declares that all foods are clean, thereby drastically changing the Law.


So, which one is true ? That's an obvious contradiction. Should we respect the OT laws about unclean foods or should we not ? Most christian say we should not, in contradiction with the actual words of Jesus, mostly because Paul Agrees with Jesus on this one in Acts 10:9-16 . In any case this contradiction obliges us to make an interpretation of what Jesus meant because if I believe what Jesus said in all instances, some foods are both clean and unclean at the same time and that cnnot be. That's not making any sense. So, the law of contradiction in logic dictates I need to interpret the word of Jesus about some food being clean and so okay to eat or not, I cannot just believe what is written word for word. How do I know which bit to believe about clean foods, how to interpret each word to find the true meaning ? I can't be using only the text because the text is what I'm trying to interpret, so using the text itself to intrepret the text is circular and leads nowhere, I need an outside source. Revelation or illumination from the holy spirit is a contender, but it has its own problem, as I mentioned several posts back. The main issue is : we cannot check whether it is really the holy spirit guiding us, not Satan or who knows else with evil intentions, so we cannot be sure a revelation is truly a revelation, meaning that all revelations are useless to help us interpret the text.
I think I spent enough time explaining to you why ''logic of faith'' wouldn't work in this case either so that all means illumination or revelation is not itself a reliable source of information.


If you got anything else, please share, because that's the end of the road as far as I'm concerned. That is why I say that certainty is out of the window. Any interpretation we have about the word of Jesus is our own and we could be misinterpreting what he really meant.


The Truth is not accessible to us through scripture or revelation.


Now, either you refute those arguments by showing me how you can be certain you are correct and actually know the true way to interpret the text, or I drop the discussion with you because you are only claiming to be certain, not proving your case.


Being delusional is refusing to revise your beliefs. Are you willing to revise your beliefs, to double check if you are correct and change beliefs if necessary ?

and a nice day to you too.

 

[fredoheaven]

You didn't check it out did you ? Here is 1 kings 22:23, to refresh your memory :



23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.




The reason i mentioned that other verse is that they tell the same story, in a more elaborate way. The theme is the same, but in 1 king 22 they use the word ''lying'' too.

Anyway, i think you might not be the right person for me to talk to , you don't even seem to read what i say to you. You do not show any signs of having read, let alone understood what i wrote. You're stuck on one minor verse that i used to emphasize my point and you ignore the gist of my arguments.



On the matter of bias, you insist you are free of it, but frankly it is not the case. I explained to you already what i meant by that and you keep saying the same ignoring what i told you about it. If you prefer denial, then let's drop the subject, I am not interested in a fight with you over the matter. I do not believe you understand the logical fallacies you are commiting and i have better things to do than try to educate you on the concepts of critical thinking.

Telling the same story? You have to go over and over reading the two if they tell the same story. Sorry my friend, they are not the same, the author is not the same in the first place! The word used in Ezek vs. I kings are not the same! And you have to know that "THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME". For short, God didn't lie. Read it a bit more and more. The scriptures says, God put a lying spirit in the mouth of those prophets. God did not lie, the prophets lie. BTW, we are not yet through with the word "deceive". Changing the subject to another subject is not a good study after all. Bias? That the problem with you, it not's mine. Again, the scriptures not an opinion is the best one to interpret itself, which you do not like. I have given you a non bias sources then again you do not like. SO, when you come to your critical thinking, IT IS YOU who is correct. None can stop you with your wild imagination...

 

[fredoheaven]

first, i do not claim to be correct, i claim i don't know and can't find out. You are the one saying you are certin and sure and correct so it is up to you to demonstrate it is not wishfull thinking.


Second, I don't expect you to trust me, i expect you to evaluate my arguments and see for yourself if they are valid or not. You don't do that. You look at whether my arguments reinforce your pre existing belief or not, when they don't you assume it is because they are incorrect and you look for ways to prove that. Your points 1 , 2 and 3 are a classic example of confirmation bias. Never do you consider the possibility that you are in error, a sure sign that you probably are.
You logic of faith figures nothing out, it only reinforces pre existing beliefs. Just read what i wrote to you and think about it. It is not certainty you have, it is belief of certainty, and they are not the same.
You claim to have no doubt, to be certain. I claim you have no ground for certainty and so your belief is in error.
Here is why : even if you think you know something for certain, you could be in error about it, and not realize it. You cannot prove that you are not wrong. It is always a possibility. You cannot claim perfect knowledge. And the only way to avoid error is to detect it. Your logic of faith is not a method to detect error, it is a method to confirm pre existing belief. So if you are in error, you have done nothing to verify and so are still possibly in error. To claim not to be in error for certain, you need to check first if you are in error and eliminate that possibility. You have not done that so you cannot claim you are not in error and so you cannot claim absolute certainty.


Now, the very fact that you or me cannot prove that there is not a chance that we are wrong and that it is always a possibility, because we cannot claim perfect knowledge, means doubt is the reasonable position, and certainty is foolish. There is no way around it. Anybody who claims to be certain about anything is asserting something he cannot prove, and so is not being credible. That is what logic dictates. Deny it if you will, that doesn't make you right.
And there are no two kind of logic, logic is logic, you who like definitions, check it out. ''Logic of faith'' is an oxymoron.

"first, i do not claim to be correct, i claim i don't know and can't find out. You are the one saying you are certin and sure and correct so it is up to you to demonstrate it is not wishfull thinking. "

Well by the fact of your own words, you don't know and can't find out. However, it seems you know better than the scriptures. I cannot help you with that. We will go into just circular discussions. Why because when the scriptures tells you these things which you are in doubt, it is you who are trying to correct it. It's not me you are trying to correct. It is God! Let me give you a principle if you like:

WHAT GOD APPROVES DON'T DISAPPROVE
WHAT GOD DISAPPROVES DON'T APPROVE

What you are doing right now is you are trying to disapprove what God approves by a little understanding of His words and what you are approvingusing critical thoughts is what God disapproves.

God be magnified!

 

[fredoheaven]

I like private one on one discussions better because on a thread it is very easy to get sidetracked by some newcomer comments once you have moved one from the original OP. The other person i'm talking to is none of your business, but one of the main reason we are talking in private is because we are talking in french, which i imagine is no use to you.


As for being skeptical of skeptics, could you tell me what exactly you mean by that ? That's the first instance of sound critical thinking skills I have got from you. It make me think you might not be a hopeless case after all.

Hiding something... um sounds not a good idea for just asking a name?

A trap? maybe, IDK, anyway never mind

 

[fredoheaven]

Really ? So you are saying that seting up an idol in his heart, in this context, is not worshipping an idol, but is that person litteraly seting up a trap in the shape of an idol inside his own heart ? Man, you are getting too far here. For the sake of making sure i checked other versions of the bible to see how this passage was translated. Most of them do not use ''set up in his heart'' in ezek 14:7 but ''worshiping''. Check it out yourself. In the context they mean the same. Your disgression about booby traps is plain ridiculous. The passage doesn't talk about God setting up those guys, but about those guys seting up idols in their hearts, worshiping them.
My friend this is yet one more example of you going out of your way to prove yourself right at the expense of truth. You are a living example of confirmation bias.


(If anybody else is reading this, I wouldn't mind somebody else letting our friend Fredo know he is pushing it a bit here.)

Sounds bias...now you are trying to impress with other versions of the bible which you did not mention. What is that? I could say the same thing like as you do and that's even. But I would like to win! and winning starts in believing....

 

[fredoheaven]

Okay, Jesus words are truth, okay... now, which words ? Let me illustrate to you the problem we have with an example:


According to Matthew 5:18, Jesus said that not the tiniest bit of the Law could be changed.
However, in Mark 7:19 Jesus declares that all foods are clean, thereby drastically changing the Law.


So, which one is true ? That's an obvious contradiction. Should we respect the OT laws about unclean foods or should we not ? Most christian say we should not, in contradiction with the actual words of Jesus, mostly because Paul Agrees with Jesus on this one in Acts 10:9-16 . In any case this contradiction obliges us to make an interpretation of what Jesus meant because if I believe what Jesus said in all instances, some foods are both clean and unclean at the same time and that cnnot be. That's not making any sense. So, the law of contradiction in logic dictates I need to interpret the word of Jesus about some food being clean and so okay to eat or not, I cannot just believe what is written word for word. How do I know which bit to believe about clean foods, how to interpret each word to find the true meaning ? I can't be using only the text because the text is what I'm trying to interpret, so using the text itself to intrepret the text is circular and leads nowhere, I need an outside source. Revelation or illumination from the holy spirit is a contender, but it has its own problem, as I mentioned several posts back. The main issue is : we cannot check whether it is really the holy spirit guiding us, not Satan or who knows else with evil intentions, so we cannot be sure a revelation is truly a revelation, meaning that all revelations are useless to help us interpret the text.
I think I spent enough time explaining to you why ''logic of faith'' wouldn't work in this case either so that all means illumination or revelation is not itself a reliable source of information.


If you got anything else, please share, because that's the end of the road as far as I'm concerned. That is why I say that certainty is out of the window. Any interpretation we have about the word of Jesus is our own and we could be misinterpreting what he really meant.


The Truth is not accessible to us through scripture or revelation.


Now, either you refute those arguments by showing me how you can be certain you are correct and actually know the true way to interpret the text, or I drop the discussion with you because you are only claiming to be certain, not proving your case.


Being delusional is refusing to revise your beliefs. Are you willing to revise your beliefs, to double check if you are correct and change beliefs if necessary ?

and a nice day to you too.

That's all folks you have said it and I quote "Okay, Jesus words are truth"

CASE CLOSED! You have been checkmated!

THANK YOU! God be praised! Hallelujah!

 

[fredoheaven]

Being delusional is refusing to revise your beliefs. Are you willing to revise your beliefs, to double check if you are correct and change beliefs if necessary ?

and a nice day to you too.

Well for your info: I once was a non Bible believer like you. I don't know what is Bible, I don't own a Bible, I do not read Bible. I call myself a "practical Athiest" but by the grace of God, He found me. I now believe the Bible, it's the book that atheist and agnostics could not destroy. Robert Ingersoll and others have gone but the bible remains and still under discussions. The Bible can be interpreted by anyone only with erroneous interpretations...like you do...

 

[fredoheaven]

You really don't understand what i'm telling you, do you ?
I don't mind the quotes, what i do mind is that you don't make the effort to understand what i'm telling you. If you are just starting to read my posts in detail, then what were you talking about before ? You are not even reading what i say ! How can you even try to refute what you haven't even read ? You haven't considered my arguments at all, you have established that i disagreed with you and so endeavored to show me i was wrong. Have you ever considered the possibility that you were wrong ? Don't you understand about the importance in recognizing that you could be wrong so you can make sure you aren't by testing whether you are wrong or not ? I mean, if you don't, then it is hopeless, i'm entirely wasting my time talking to you because you are not interested in the truth.

Really this is simple, because you don't mind the quotes of the Bible, so I do the same method you are trying to infer. That's all. Interested in the truth? Do you have the truth? Where can finnd truth? To you? Where's is truth in you if you haven't sure of yourself. JESUS CHRIST is the truth!

 

[miknik5]

It wasn't His idea, but He let Jephthath kill his daughter because he promised to do so if they won the battle.

Showing you that those who were under the law who claimed to know God did not rightly handle the law because they lacked The Spirit and thereby their actions misrepresented God and made the law of no effect

Or should I say blasphemed the God whom they claimed to know

 

[miknik5]

I can't believe this thread still had activity.

Can't men make right judgements about what is of God and what usnt

 

[Kosie]

I can't believe this thread still had activity.

Can't men make right judgements about what is of God and what usnt

Miknik5 if they could there would not have been many false teqchers and their big numbers of followers. False teachers are not from God. Why they do succeed is the lack of knowledge by the followers.

 

[Simeon]

Really this is simple, because you don't mind the quotes of the Bible, so I do the same method you are trying to infer. That's all. Interested in the truth? Do you have the truth? Where can finnd truth? To you? Where's is truth in you if you haven't sure of yourself. JESUS CHRIST is the truth!

Okay, i don't think we can have a meaningfull conversation unless you tell me what you mean by truth.
What do you mean by truth?

 

[Simeon]

I can't believe this thread still had activity.

Can't men make right judgements about what is of God and what usnt

No, no. We've moved from the op a long time ago, we're talking epistemology now. Well at least i'm trying.

 

[TheCookieMonster]

I don't have a child lol

Jk, I wouldn't, because God Himself has condemned human sacrifices. Plus, we already have Jesus Christ, the true Atonement for sins, so God asking us to sacrifice our children in the modern era? Probably just the devil playing tricks.

Still, since I'm a doubter (I'm such a Thomas, haha, get it? No?) I'd probably ask testify the spirit first by praying to God. That's probably the best first thing to do. Right?

 

[CeileDe]

Well I have thought about this but in reference to the end times. If the government was going door to door killing Christians and taking their children to mold them into their evil ideals, would I kill my child or trust God would protect them? I know it is a terrible thought but it has crossed my mind.

 

[miknik5]

Well I have thought about this but in reference to the end times. If the government was going door to door killing Christians and taking their children to mold them into their evil ideals, would I kill my child or trust God would protect them? I know it is a terrible thought but it has crossed my mind.

You will trust GOD that HE will protect them because if you are in heaven and one of the souls under the altar (because you were killed for holding to the testimony of JESUS) your cries to the LORD will be heard given you are in HIS PRESENCE

 

[miknik5]

I don't have a child lol

Jk, I wouldn't, because God Himself has condemned human sacrifices. Plus, we already have Jesus Christ, the true Atonement for sins, so God asking us to sacrifice our children in the modern era? Probably just the devil playing tricks.

Still, since I'm a doubter (I'm such a Thomas, haha, get it? No?) I'd probably ask testify the spirit first by praying to God. That's probably the best first thing to do. Right?

Yes DEFINITELY the devil playing tricks on the ignorant

 

[ladylynn]

I've seen this thread posted before and am not sure if I ever posted on it? I used to ask such questions all the time., you know., those "what if God" questions. Also the regular day to day "what if" questions. What if I fall today? What if I get cancer? What if my dog dies? These days I never even allow my mind to go there anymore. So much so that just typing those out was very strange to do.

I must tell you that those kinds of questions have no place in my mind anymore because they kept me in fear and dread every day. My question later turned out to be this; do I dare believe God would never ask that kind of thing of me? Questions like -"would you kill your child if God ask you to?" Have no place in our lives anymore. Not even to think them.

And as my faith and knowledge of the love of God in Christ has grown I know the only one who kills, steals and destroys is satan. And when a person gets a revelation of the grace of God they are being built up in the faith built up in knowledge and the truth of God in Christ. Recognizing a lie is much easier when you are acquainted with the grace of God.

So even interpreting Scripture is much easier because you have certain truths in you that can refute even something that may sound spiritual but in fact is not true. I love to attest to the amazing truth that Grace does really and truly teach us many things just as the Bible says in Titus 2:11-13

And in the place of those fearful questions we think instead of the blessed hope of the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. The Bible and the Holy Spirit give us alternative thinking truths and abilities. "far beyond those of mortal men" (Superman theme) lol
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]It has trained us to reject and renounce all ungodliness (irreligion) and worldly (passionate) desires, to live discreet (temperate, self-controlled), upright, devout (spiritually whole) lives in this present world,
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

I'm used to reading it in the KJV where it says - "soberly righteously and Godly in this present world." The word "sober" is a good word. The dictionary says; Devoid of frivolity, exaggeration, or speculative imagination (gave a sober assessment of the problem) self controlled and sane; reasonable.