Would you sacrifice your child if God asked you to?

fredoheaven · Aug 3, 2016

Let me help you a little here in the case of the word "deceive/d"

The KJV with its Bible built- in Dictionary will defined the terms in question.

“Deceived” here means stretch out a hand or spread out a hand to entrap or insnare or ensnare. A good dictionary or using etymology tells you that the word “deceived” is correct more than it can be imagine!

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

1828 Webster Dictionary says:

[.] DECE'IVE, v.t. [L to take asid, to ensnare.]
[.] INSNA'RE, v.t. [in and snare.] To catch in a snare; to entrap; to take by artificial means. [.] 1. To inveigle; to seduce by artifice; to take by wiles, stratagem or deceit. The flattering tongue is apt to insnare the artless youth. [.] 2. To entangle; to involve ...

OxFord Dictionary says:

Deceive -
Origin

Middle English: from Old French deceivre, from Latin decipere 'catch, ensnare, cheat'.

deceive: definition of deceive in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

Online Etymology says:

c. 1300, from Old French decevoir "to deceive" (12c., Modern French décevoir), from Latin decipere "to ensnare, take in, beguile, cheat," from de- "from" or pejorative + capere "to take" (see capable). Related: Deceived; deceiver; deceiving.

Online Etymology Dictionary

AmberJeanetteGardner · Aug 3, 2016

Why even entertain such a thing? He didn't require it of Abraham, he hated that the pagans did it, and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, even our enemies.

fredoheaven · Aug 3, 2016

AmberJeanetteGardner said:

If this address to me yea, idk but maybe I was contemplating words of God not applicable this time...

God bless

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Simeon · Aug 4, 2016

Thanks for taking the trouble to give me your point of view.
I'm now engaged in a private discussion with another member and it is interesting but i can also talk with you. Would you mind a private discussion ? Or we can continue here, it doesn't seem that busy anymore.

I'll comment quickly on your definition of ''deceive'' :

“Deceived” here means stretch out a hand or spread out a hand to entrap or insnare or ensnare. A good dictionary or using etymology tells you that the word “deceived” is correct more than it can be imagine!

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

While deceive can apparently mean ensnare, this is clearly not the whole meaning of both use of ''deceive'' here, which clearly refers to misleading the prophet into saying so mething false, in the context of EZEK 14:8 and 14:10, it is clear that the meaning is that God makes the prophet give a false answer, and then destroys him. It is a punishment for turning away from God and worshiping idols. I interpret it as God making him say something so ridiculous that the people listening shun him or even lynch him, or something like that. So there is a sense of entrapment, but it clearly takes the form of deception, falsehood, etc, which i think is fair to call a lie. In this passage God in EZEK 14:7 is saying this false answer coming out of the mouth of the false prophet is in fact God's answer. To me that is an example of God saying a lie. Not a gratuitous lie of course, but still.
And that is my point, showing that some passages can be interpreted to say he can't lie and some others can be interpreted to say he can, like this one. But this is a detail, my whole line of inquiry and confusion is about the matter of interpretation itself. It has been several days since I started this thread and I have done some studying and a lot of thinking. It now is clearer to me that there is no way around the fact that the bible is open to interpretation. You seem to agree, I'm glad of that.
No that leave us with the problem of finding the right interpretation, like you mention.
You solution is this :

It starts with believing the Book, the Bible. This is related to the “logic of faith.” The logic of faith is that you must first believe in the Book.

This logic of faith is just not logical. It doesn't make any sense. It flies to the face of logic actually. If you have to believe first then your interpretation is going to be nothing more than confirmation bias. You're going to ''see'' only the bits that confirms or agree with your faith, with what you already believe. You come with preconceptions and make the text match them. To see the whole box, as you say, we need to eliminate confirmation bias and all other cognitive falacies, so we can actually see the truth, without bias, isn't that so ? So I'm quite skeptical about your solution here.
I've come to think that scriptures doesn't have a clear message, a single deep truth, your box, if you will, it seems to me it is more of a mix of concepts and statements and everyone can pick and chose what he prefers in it. With all those different types of christians, it doesn't seem likely that they are all looking at the same box. I have grown to distrust the message of the bible as the word of God because I do not see a way to actually find out what God wants from us in it.

Now you mention also being guided by the holy spirit. That means revelation ?
So what i'm wondering, given that scriptures alone is open to interpretation and that it is too obviously circular to use the actual content of the bible to figure out how to interpret that content (meaning i can read it all onward and backward and it won't help any), is how to determine one has the good faith, not a false one, and whether the holy spirit is actually guiding us or if we are deceiving ourselves it is ? It seems to me extremely subjective, and I cannot see a way to check or make sure, that the holy spirit is helping in our interpretation. And if we're not checking if it is the case, then for all we know we're completely deluded about our interpretation of scriptures, and we're like the false prophet in the passage of Ezekiel above and God is going to be mightily displeased. So faith is not enough, conviction that the holy spirit is guiding us is not enough, we need an independent way to check. How do we do that ?

My hunch is that we can't actually check. If we could I imagine all christians would agree. Which is very far from being the case. That points to the conclusion interpretation is the best we can do and there is no way to figure out who is correct and who is not, we just have to try to be the most coherent possible and hope for the best.
Now, that is close to the most disturbing thing i can imagine. Anyone of us could be completely wrong about everything he believes and would have no way to find out.
Certainty is out the window.
Please tell me I'm wrong

fredoheaven · Aug 4, 2016

Simeon said:

Thanks for taking the trouble to give me your point of view.
I'm now engaged in a private discussion with another member and it is interesting but i can also talk with you. Would you mind a private discussion ? Or we can continue here, it doesn't seem that busy anymore.

I'll comment quickly on your definition of ''deceive'' :

“Deceived” here means stretch out a hand or spread out a hand to entrap or insnare or ensnare. A good dictionary or using etymology tells you that the word “deceived” is correct more than it can be imagine!

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

While deceive can apparently mean ensnare, this is clearly not the whole meaning of both use of ''deceive'' here, which clearly refers to misleading the prophet into saying so mething false, in the context of EZEK 14:8 and 14:10, it is clear that the meaning is that God makes the prophet give a false answer, and then destroys him. It is a punishment for turning away from God and worshiping idols. I interpret it as God making him say something so ridiculous that the people listening shun him or even lynch him, or something like that. So there is a sense of entrapment, but it clearly takes the form of deception, falsehood, etc, which i think is fair to call a lie. In this passage God in EZEK 14:7 is saying this false answer coming out of the mouth of the false prophet is in fact God's answer. To me that is an example of God saying a lie. Not a gratuitous lie of course, but still.
And that is my point, showing that some passages can be interpreted to say he can't lie and some others can be interpreted to say he can, like this one. But this is a detail, my whole line of inquiry and confusion is about the matter of interpretation itself. It has been several days since I started this thread and I have done some studying and a lot of thinking. It now is clearer to me that there is no way around the fact that the bible is open to interpretation. You seem to agree, I'm glad of that.
No that leave us with the problem of finding the right interpretation, like you mention.
You solution is this :

It starts with believing the Book, the Bible. This is related to the “logic of faith.” The logic of faith is that you must first believe in the Book.

This logic of faith is just not logical. It doesn't make any sense. It flies to the face of logic actually. If you have to believe first then your interpretation is going to be nothing more than confirmation bias. You're going to ''see'' only the bits that confirms or agree with your faith, with what you already believe. You come with preconceptions and make the text match them. To see the whole box, as you say, we need to eliminate confirmation bias and all other cognitive falacies, so we can actually see the truth, without bias, isn't that so ? So I'm quite skeptical about your solution here.
I've come to think that scriptures doesn't have a clear message, a single deep truth, your box, if you will, it seems to me it is more of a mix of concepts and statements and everyone can pick and chose what he prefers in it. With all those different types of christians, it doesn't seem likely that they are all looking at the same box. I have grown to distrust the message of the bible as the word of God because I do not see a way to actually find out what God wants from us in it.

Now you mention also being guided by the holy spirit. That means revelation ?
So what i'm wondering, given that scriptures alone is open to interpretation and that it is too obviously circular to use the actual content of the bible to figure out how to interpret that content (meaning i can read it all onward and backward and it won't help any), is how to determine one has the good faith, not a false one, and whether the holy spirit is actually guiding us or if we are deceiving ourselves it is ? It seems to me extremely subjective, and I cannot see a way to check or make sure, that the holy spirit is helping in our interpretation. And if we're not checking if it is the case, then for all we know we're completely deluded about our interpretation of scriptures, and we're like the false prophet in the passage of Ezekiel above and God is going to be mightily displeased. So faith is not enough, conviction that the holy spirit is guiding us is not enough, we need an independent way to check. How do we do that ?

My hunch is that we can't actually check. If we could I imagine all christians would agree. Which is very far from being the case. That points to the conclusion interpretation is the best we can do and there is no way to figure out who is correct and who is not, we just have to try to be the most coherent possible and hope for the best.
Now, that is close to the most disturbing thing i can imagine. Anyone of us could be completely wrong about everything he believes and would have no way to find out.
Certainty is out the window.
Please tell me I'm wrong

Thank you for your long post but first scriptures proves you wrong not me the one who says it. Read the verse please. Second, I use good dictionary to prove God's word is correct and thirdly, I used etymology to prove God's word is right. Is that bias? You just only give me a reason to believe your inability to grasp spiritual things.

Simeon · Aug 5, 2016

fredoheaven said:

Well, check out 1 kings 22:19-23, which has the theme as Ezek 14:9. Now tell me this is not about lying. It says so, it uses the word, check the text. Put the two together and you'll see that in Ezekiel it is about lying too.

Second, I use good dictionary to prove God's word is correct and thirdly, I used etymology to prove God's word is right. Is that bias?

Well, yes you are showing bias, I'm sorry. You approach the issue with a preconception. You look not at what the text says and means, in its context and with its vocabulary, you instead starts from an assumption and bend the meaning of the text to make it fit your assumption. That's bias. Confirmation bias, to be precise. We are all guilty of it and should be aware of it so as not to be swayed by it. You don't even seem to be aware confirmation bias is a problem, you apparently think it helps, you gave me the advice of believing in the book first, didn't you ? Your logic of faith. Well, your logic of faith is also called confirmation bias.

So, instead of leaning on your bias, you should try to eliminate it from your interpretation of scriptures, approach the text with no preconceptions and try to find the most probable meaning based on vocabulary, ethymology and context. That way your interpretation is more likely to be correct than if you start with your conclusions, based on your previous beliefs, and look into the text, the dictionary, the ethymology, anything, for confirmation. That's pretty obvious isn't it ? What you are doing is trying to explain away what doesn't agree with your pre existing beliefs instead of trying to find out what the text actually says. Besides, your beliefs may very well be erroneous. How did you get to your beliefs ? Have you ever wondered ? What you believe may be in contradiction with the message of the bible but with your approach, you will never find out, confirmation bias will only confirm those beliefs. You'll think : ''Ahah ! Great ! The bible agrees with what I believe once more, I must be right !''. That's not how you find out if you are right or not. That's how you remain in the dark. But don't feel bad, you are obviously not the only one doing it, there are more than 40 000 denominations of christians who are persuaded their beliefs agree with the bible. They can't all be correct, can they ? I think confirmation bias (or the ''logic of faith'') explains why most of those who are wrong think they are correct.

Anyway, my point was that even when looking at the text without bias, using critical thinking techniques to avoid bias, it come clear that the text itself present opposing views and concepts, leaving room for interpretation, you can't just believe what the text says because what the text says is not clear, so what are you believing in exactly and why? Doubt enters the scene. If we eliminate bias as an influence to chose this or that interpretation, how do we find out what to believe? The text itself doesn't help, we need an outside source.

So we come back to the second part of my previous post, although if logic of faith is the best advice you have maybe your are not the good person to ask...

how to determine one has the good faith, not a false one, and whether the holy spirit is actually guiding us or if we are deceiving ourselves it is ?
So faith is not enough, conviction that the holy spirit is guiding us is not enough, we need an independent way to check. How do we do that ?

My hunch is that we can't actually check. If we could I imagine all christians would agree and the ''logic of faith'' would not be accepted as the best we can do which is very far from being the case. That points to the conclusion interpretation is the best we can do and there is no way to figure out who is correct and who is not, we just have to try to be the most coherent possible and hope for the best.

Now, as I said, that is close to the most disturbing thing I can imagine. Anyone of us could be completely wrong about everything he believes and would have no way to find out.

Certainty is out the window.

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

Well, check out 1 kings 22:19-23, which has the theme as Ezek 14:9. Now tell me this is not about lying. It says so, it uses the word, check the text. Put the two together and you'll see that in Ezekiel it is about lying too.

Second, I use good dictionary to prove God's word is correct and thirdly, I used etymology to prove God's word is right. Is that bias?

Well, yes you are showing bias, I'm sorry. You approach the issue with a preconception. You look not at what the text says and means, in its context and with its vocabulary, you instead starts from an assumption and bend the meaning of the text to make it fit your assumption. That's bias. Confirmation bias, to be precise. We are all guilty of it and should be aware of it so as not to be swayed by it. You don't even seem to be aware confirmation bias is a problem, you apparently think it helps, you gave me the advice of believing in the book first, didn't you ? Your logic of faith. Well, your logic of faith is also called confirmation bias.

So, instead of leaning on your bias, you should try to eliminate it from your interpretation of scriptures, approach the text with no preconceptions and try to find the most probable meaning based on vocabulary, ethymology and context. That way your interpretation is more likely to be correct than if you start with your conclusions, based on your previous beliefs, and look into the text, the dictionary, the ethymology, anything, for confirmation. That's pretty obvious isn't it ? What you are doing is trying to explain away what doesn't agree with your pre existing beliefs instead of trying to find out what the text actually says. Besides, your beliefs may very well be erroneous. How did you get to your beliefs ? Have you ever wondered ? What you believe may be in contradiction with the message of the bible but with your approach, you will never find out, confirmation bias will only confirm those beliefs. You'll think : ''Ahah ! Great ! The bible agrees with what I believe once more, I must be right !''. That's not how you find out if you are right or not. That's how you remain in the dark. But don't feel bad, you are obviously not the only one doing it, there are more than 40 000 denominations of christians who are persuaded their beliefs agree with the bible. They can't all be correct, can they ? I think confirmation bias (or the ''logic of faith'') explains why most of those who are wrong think they are correct.

Anyway, my point was that even when looking at the text without bias, using critical thinking techniques to avoid bias, it come clear that the text itself present opposing views and concepts, leaving room for interpretation, you can't just believe what the text says because what the text says is not clear, so what are you believing in exactly and why? Doubt enters the scene. If we eliminate bias as an influence to chose this or that interpretation, how do we find out what to believe? The text itself doesn't help, we need an outside source.

So we come back to the second part of my previous post, although if logic of faith is the best advice you have maybe your are not the good person to ask...

how to determine one has the good faith, not a false one, and whether the holy spirit is actually guiding us or if we are deceiving ourselves it is ?
So faith is not enough, conviction that the holy spirit is guiding us is not enough, we need an independent way to check. How do we do that ?

My hunch is that we can't actually check. If we could I imagine all christians would agree and the ''logic of faith'' would not be accepted as the best we can do which is very far from being the case. That points to the conclusion interpretation is the best we can do and there is no way to figure out who is correct and who is not, we just have to try to be the most coherent possible and hope for the best.

Now, as I said, that is close to the most disturbing thing I can imagine. Anyone of us could be completely wrong about everything he believes and would have no way to find out.

Certainty is out the window.

Well, we still not through of the word "deceived" and yet another verses were thrown. I have not even interpreted the Ezekiel's passage. I have just given you the idea on how to understand the language of the KJV. I have given you a 3 dimensional approaches because I believe you have all the doubts of the Bible but it seem it's not. What I have just pointed out is I have let the scriptures speaks of itself! Then the use of good Dictionaries and Etymolgy confirms the very definition of the KJV as I said is correct but if still you do not believe the definition of the dictionaries then throw it...anyway they are works of fallible men like you and me. But that's not the case, I believe, the authors of the dictionaries are more intelligent than us in terms of lexical or language study.

I think i have given some food for thought today...

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

What you are trying to tell me is that you are correct that you are wrong. IDK, for how can I trust someone who cannot trust even in himself. The logic of faith is still greater than your logic. Look, here is the difference:

1. My Logic of faith means " I believe" vs. Your grave logic means "you doubt"
2. My logic of faith is sure. Your flawed logic is unsure
3. My logic of faith can figure out. Your logic can't see and is blind.

So the logic of faith is still higher than that of your own pre-conceive idea's or thoughts...

BTW, your question is trite...

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

Me too, I have this in notion being skeptical sometimes to those who are skeptics. In a highlighted blue color. Whom you are referring to the member of this site that you engaged for a discussion? Could you name that member? and why encourage private discussion?

Thanks

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

The context you are saying about worshiping idols is not rue. While idolatry abounds today and in the Bible, it is not exactly what you think about the passage in particular is worshiping them. The Bible says they have "set up their idols in their heart"

Ezek. 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Ezek 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]Ezek. 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and [/FONT]setteth up his idols in his heart,[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]So that's it "set up idols in his heart" not that they are "worshiping idols" Another strike for you... [/FONT]

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

Here is another way how the Bible link the word "deceived" to mean stretch out or entrap.

When you have been 'set up" then your trap

What? A Booby trap?

A booby trap is a device or setup that is intended to kill, harm or surprise a person, unknowingly triggered by the presence or actions of the victim. As the word trap implies, they sometimes have some form of bait designed to lure the victim towards it. At other times, the trap is set to act upon trespassers that violate personal or restricted areas. The device can be triggered when the victim performs some type of everyday action e.g. opening a door, picking something up or switching something on. They can also be triggered by vehicles driving along a road as in the case of victim-operated improvised explosive devices (IED's).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby_trap

StrongHardWorkingLeader · Aug 5, 2016

I find it interesting that while everyone has mentioned Abraham and Issac nobody has mentioned Jephthah and his daughter where the action was actually carried out.

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

I am just beginning to read your post in detail and found many holes to dismiss your claim. What you are trying to convey about independent check and how to do that is found in the scriptures. Believe it or not! you are following what the scriptures says of your own suggestions...I will let scriptures speaks

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me
.2 Timothy Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So, we need to search and study! and as to your concern of your distrust about the Bible, believe it or not! King Solomon, the wisest King of israel has already known your case as your study is a "weariness to the flesh"

Eccl. 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much studyis a weariness of the flesh.

Please don't blame me of putting or bombarding you with many scriptures because I Believe the Bible.

fredoheaven · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

Revelation?(question mark) you said but let me help you a little in here if you may . NO, it's not revelation. It's about Illumination. The one we are discussing...We cannot separate the Holy Spirit in here because He is the author of it. If He is the author of it, He knows it, you need Him...It starts when we humble ourselves ask His guidance and what the Holy Spirit is saying you need Jesus Christ the Saviour. Jesus said and I quote:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the truth, if you wanted to seek the truth, the only way is Christ! Christ words are truth, believe in Him and what he says because God loves you! He wanted to give you life and the life is eternal life, that's God's promise.

O I love your soul in the Lord....praying for you. Nice day!

Kosie · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

NO NO NO! Because I know God! HE WILL NEVER ASK SOMETHING LIKE THAT! If you think God will promise you a child at age 99 and say that the WORLD will be blessed through his seed, and then twenty five years or so later God says... Hey Kosie that son of yours I said will be blessing the world, go and end his life, even before he is with child.... Man what type of confused God is this? God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac, but it was not God that said Abraham must offer Isaac. God does not play games and God does not tempt any man. Abraham was the confused one here NOT GOD!

Many men heard the voice of Satan and thought it is God because they KNOW NOT GOD, I am one of them. Many times I thought it was God but when I started to know Him through intensive Bible study, and His grace to reveal Himself to me through Scripture, I started to know the LOVING God that does not benefit ANYTHING from man, but He makes man benefit EVERYTHING from Him.

I cannot make God more holy, or less holy. I cannot proof to God I have Faith or Power, He gives me the faith or Power, and it does not make Him more or LESS God. I am the only one that benefits, IF HE WILLS.

Please do not be confused as MANY did through the time. Jesus said the Israel that wanted to kill Him, like their fathers they serve Satan he is the MURDERER from the BEGINNING. Who murdered first? Cain! Before he did, God warned him!

miknik5 · Aug 5, 2016

Simeon said:

That won't be happening...nor will GOD be asking anyone to do this.
What you are looking at in the OT are pictures and representations of all the things that GOD laid out by these pictures and representations to point us to CHRIST.
There is only one time GOD asked a man to sacrifice his son, the promised son, promised to him by GOD...and that was Abraham.

And Abraham went to do this not fully understanding what he had been asked to do, but knowing the VOICE of GOD, he recognized this "call" as the voice of GOD.

And just before Abraham was about to do this, he was told not to.

Abraham may not have fully understood what he was told to do in that moment, but he does now.

And he knows that the "reenactment of a sacrifice of an only son from GOD and promised from GOD" was to point us to the ONE and ONLY PROMISED SON of GOD...

Abraham's prophecied words:
The LORD will provide the sacrifice...were also clearly laid out to point us to CHRIST.

GOD will NEVER and NEVER condoned child sacrifice and said as such when HE said, they allowed their children to pass through the fire...something I never said, nor did it ever enter my mind...

StrongHardWorkingLeader · Aug 5, 2016

miknik5 said:

That won't be happening...nor will GOD be asking anyone to do this.
What you are looking at in the OT are pictures and representations of all the things that GOD laid out by these pictures and representations to point us to CHRIST.
There is only one time GOD asked a man to sacrifice his son, the promised son, promised to him by GOD...and that was Abraham.

And Abraham went to do this not fully understanding what he had been asked to do, but knowing the VOICE of GOD, he recognized this "call" as the voice of GOD.

And just before Abraham was about to do this, he was told not to.

Abraham may not have fully understood what he was told to do in that moment, but he does now.

And he knows that the "reenactment of a sacrifice of an only son from GOD and promised from GOD" was to point us to the ONE and ONLY PROMISED SON of GOD...

Abraham's prophecied words:
The LORD will provide the sacrifice...were also clearly laid out to point us to CHRIST.

GOD will NEVER and NEVER condoned child sacrifice and said as such when HE said, they allowed their children to pass through the fire...something I never said, nor did it ever enter my mind...

It wasn't His idea, but He let Jephthath kill his daughter because he promised to do so if they won the battle.

Simeon · Aug 6, 2016

fredoheaven said:

You didn't check it out did you ? Here is 1 kings 22:23, to refresh your memory :

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The reason i mentioned that other verse is that they tell the same story, in a more elaborate way. The theme is the same, but in 1 king 22 they use the word ''lying'' too.

Anyway, i think you might not be the right person for me to talk to , you don't even seem to read what i say to you. You do not show any signs of having read, let alone understood what i wrote. You're stuck on one minor verse that i used to emphasize my point and you ignore the gist of my arguments.

On the matter of bias, you insist you are free of it, but frankly it is not the case. I explained to you already what i meant by that and you keep saying the same ignoring what i told you about it. If you prefer denial, then let's drop the subject, I am not interested in a fight with you over the matter. I do not believe you understand the logical fallacies you are commiting and i have better things to do than try to educate you on the concepts of critical thinking.

Simeon · Aug 6, 2016

fredoheaven said:

first, i do not claim to be correct, i claim i don't know and can't find out. You are the one saying you are certin and sure and correct so it is up to you to demonstrate it is not wishfull thinking.

Second, I don't expect you to trust me, i expect you to evaluate my arguments and see for yourself if they are valid or not. You don't do that. You look at whether my arguments reinforce your pre existing belief or not, when they don't you assume it is because they are incorrect and you look for ways to prove that. Your points 1 , 2 and 3 are a classic example of confirmation bias. Never do you consider the possibility that you are in error, a sure sign that you probably are.
You logic of faith figures nothing out, it only reinforces pre existing beliefs. Just read what i wrote to you and think about it. It is not certainty you have, it is belief of certainty, and they are not the same.
You claim to have no doubt, to be certain. I claim you have no ground for certainty and so your belief is in error.
Here is why : even if you think you know something for certain, you could be in error about it, and not realize it. You cannot prove that you are not wrong. It is always a possibility. You cannot claim perfect knowledge. And the only way to avoid error is to detect it. Your logic of faith is not a method to detect error, it is a method to confirm pre existing belief. So if you are in error, you have done nothing to verify and so are still possibly in error. To claim not to be in error for certain, you need to check first if you are in error and eliminate that possibility. You have not done that so you cannot claim you are not in error and so you cannot claim absolute certainty.

Now, the very fact that you or me cannot prove that there is not a chance that we are wrong and that it is always a possibility, because we cannot claim perfect knowledge, means doubt is the reasonable position, and certainty is foolish. There is no way around it. Anybody who claims to be certain about anything is asserting something he cannot prove, and so is not being credible. That is what logic dictates. Deny it if you will, that doesn't make you right.
And there are no two kind of logic, logic is logic, you who like definitions, check it out. ''Logic of faith'' is an oxymoron.

Simeon · Aug 6, 2016

fredoheaven said:

I like private one on one discussions better because on a thread it is very easy to get sidetracked by some newcomer comments once you have moved one from the original OP. The other person i'm talking to is none of your business, but one of the main reason we are talking in private is because we are talking in french, which i imagine is no use to you.

As for being skeptical of skeptics, could you tell me what exactly you mean by that ? That's the first instance of sound critical thinking skills I have got from you. It make me think you might not be a hopeless case after all.

Would you sacrifice your child if God asked you to?

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