Christians being murdered and driven out by extremist Muslims in the Middle East

[pancakeface]

Okay, you've obviously missed the hundreds of discussions about how the death penalty and old testament law is completely valid in its entirety today etc etc. Anyway, Here is an example of a couple of verses used to make the koran a hate-book, which I'll translate, along with the one you posted. And there are plenty of christian ones too. Like the one about how a woman has to marry her rapist, when in fact the verse is saying that the rapist owes the woman food and shelter for the rest of her life as a debt .. etc etc. They are in both books and people always twist them. Doesn't help that most Muslims use the yusuf Ali translation or that most Christians refer to the KJV all the time, but anyway. Here.


''Fighting is given to you, and you dislike it. It is possible that you dislike a thing which is beneficial for you, and that you love a thing which is a curse for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.”

This is profound. It's saying that sometimes, the world just doesn't make sense, amidst fighting, and that our views on things might not even be right. The things that we think are bad might well be what we think is good, but that's why we have God, because he knows for sure. And God thinks that peace is the true path, obviously.

Your verse (in context):

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Those who trust: Honour God and honour the messenger, don't make your actions for nothing.[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: eeeeee"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Those who distrust and turn from the way of God and die in mistrust, God will not pardon them of that.

So do not weaken and cry out for emancipation when you are uppermost, and Allah is with you. he will not begrudge you the reward of your steadfastness.
The life on Earth is but a hobby and a pastime, and if you believe and ward off evil, evil shall not ask you of your worldly wages. IF God should ask you of it and importune you, you would hoard it and by such then God would bring to light your hidden flaws. Yes, you are the ones called to spend in the way of God, yet among you are some who hoard. and as for him who hoardes, he hoardes from his own mind. See, God is the rich, and you are the poor. And if you turn away (from 'spending for good'), then he will exchange you for some other folk who is not like you.[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: eeeeee"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Notice anything there? You were totally off base, using one verse to constitute a view that the Koran isn't about peace, when the verse, in context, ix actually talking about how humanity should spend in the currency of good deed.

 

[leonardronaldo]

give me the chapter number and the verse, both the bible and the quran.
For Islam, you have a binding interpretation from the early scholars and companions of muhammad.
so let me teach you about islam. post also the verse number that you quoted from the bible.

 

[pancakeface]

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Suppose a man is caught raping a young woman who is not engaged. 29 He is to pay her father the bride price of fifty pieces of silver, and she is to become his wife, because he forced her to have intercourse with him. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Now this translation is a common translation derived from the KJV.

However, the hebrew reads like this:

If a man has (in his company) a girl (virgin) who is not engaged, and (he) lays hold of her and sleeps with her, there then upon discovery, he shall (must, lawfully, by consequence) give the father of whom he lay (with) multiple times the price of engagement, and he shall become accountable for the girl for all his days, because he violated her, and he may not cast her away.

Poeple say 'the bible forces women to marry their rapist', when in fact, rape isn't even mentioned. What it's saying is that, if a man finds a single girl and sleeps with her (by force or otherwise), then he is to pay the father a penalty price, multiple times the engagement cost. (Engagement costs in Hebrew days were to signify the man's ability to provide for a woman). And afterwards, the man is responsible for the woman for the rest of his life, and can never cast her away or send her away. However, nowhere does it say that the woman cannot refuse (particularly in th case of rape, for which there are also penalties in the bible), and nowhere does it actually even mention the word rape. It just says he violated her. In hebrew law, sex outside marriage is violation regardless of force or of the lack of it. And men are responsible.

The same kind of thing happens in the Koran. Things get twisted.

 

[Drett]

Muslims who commit acts of violence and terror in the name of God, can find ample justification for their actions, based on the teachings of the Qur'an and the sayings and examples from prophet Muhammad himself. Furthermore, the only sure guarantee of salvation in Islam is dying in Jihad. But other factors are at work:

1. Fundamental Islamic education has an effect on the attitudes of many Muslims toward Christians and nations they perceive as "Christian." They are told that Christians hate them and want to wipe Islam off the face of the earth and that they can never be friends unless they convert to Christianity (Surah 5:51-Ali Translation).

Additionally they are told great stories about heroes of the Islamic faith, like Khalid ibn Walid the "Sword of Allah" and taught an idealized version of early Islam when Muslims read the Quran literally and applied it to their lives. This, despite its bloody history. They learn songs like "I Shall Avenge My God and Belief" which tell of "delivering death and hell to the unbelievers." It's important to note that the modern Great Awakening of Islamic fundamentalism we see today is based primarily on the modern society defined as Jahiliyyah and the "need" for a vanguard to re-Islamize society.

2. Islamic law. One point that separates the radical Muslim from all others is Islamic law. Islamic law is a powerful concept because it is viewed as a direct command from the Quran. Radical scholars attach it inseparably to the worship of Allah. Islamic law is the line that divides the religious terrorist from the secular terrorist. It's rigid logic binds the radical Muslim to Islamic law with resolve.

3. The radical sees themselves as surrounded by infidels who are hostile to them and their message of faith. All key radical writers put great energy into arguing that nearly all societies are infidel both those who call themselves Muslim and the others. It goes without saying that Jews and Christians are infidels despite liberal attempts to show they are not because a small level of tolerance was afforded them as "people of the book"; a people to be certain whose numbers have dwindled after centuries of persecution and discrimination of a level few Westerners understand. The radical believes that Islam is not merely belief that should be preached but a way of life that must take shape as a system of authority on earth just as it did during the life of Muhammad. Islam is a theocracy: a religion and a state without borders.

4. Punishment or reward. The Quran condemned Muslims who avoided the duty of jihad (Surah 9:38-39, Shakir Translation) and in this religion that offers little guarantees in the way of eternal security, the Quran teaches that being killed in jihad guarantees one entrance to paradise (Surah 4:74). Moderates argue this is not primarily a physical fight but radicals always push back against those teachings.

There is no "new testament" in Islam. It's rooted in ancient violence.

Good article: Islam and Violence

Do you think a people that protect a city against a force more than triple its size should be rewarded ? Compulsory military service was used in the Vietnam war. Those that refused to fight were punished. Is protecting your families lives more important that fighting a battle in someone elses country ? Do you think the ones that do not step up to protect their city should be punished ? Do you think God should set the limits on how the city is to be protected ?

That is the problem Christianity faces. It has no guidelines on how to act as a collective. All doctrine is targetted to the individual, so you need to outsource the decisions needed to kill the enemy to a group that has removed God from their decision process. The problem now is that same group that has removed God from its decision process is now bringing in laws which allows homosexuals to marry and raise children. Germany is bringing in bestiality brothels. There is a moral decay because God has taken a back seat.

 

[pancakeface]

Do you think a people that protect a city against a force more than triple its size should be rewarded ? Compulsory military service was used in the Vietnam war. Those that refused to fight were punished. Is protecting your families lives more important that fighting a battle in someone elses country ? Do you think the ones that do not step up to protect their city should be punished ? Do you think God should set the limits on how the city is to be protected ?

That is the problem Christianity faces. It has no guidelines on how to act as a collective. All doctrine is targetted to the individual, so you need to outsource the decisions needed to kill the enemy to a group that has removed God from their decision process. The problem now is that same group that has removed God from its decision process is now bringing in laws which allows homosexuals to marry and raise children. Germany is bringing in bestiality brothels. There is a moral decay because God has taken a back seat.

Not the case at all. God never really had a prominent front seat in the minds of the masses. Christians are the minority and that group that's bringing in homosexual marriage, has always been the majority group, least where it counts anyway. The bible needs to be for the individual to make individual choices because as a collective there are too many cooks. And honestly, if God took a REAL front seat, we wouldn't even be having a conversation about political decisions in wartime because there wouldn't be a war. It'd either be a utopia for all, or an extermination of victims turning the other cheek.

 

[Drett]

Not the case at all. God never really had a prominent front seat in the minds of the masses. Christians are the minority and that group that's bringing in homosexual marriage, has always been the majority group, least where it counts anyway. The bible needs to be for the individual to make individual choices because as a collective there are too many cooks. And honestly, if God took a REAL front seat, we wouldn't even be having a conversation about political decisions in wartime because there wouldn't be a war. It'd either be a utopia for all, or an extermination of victims turning the other cheek.

Sorry Pan, Christians are the overwhelming majority.

Statistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Thus the government that is in power was voted in by you and is representing you. It's actions are your responsibility.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Sorry Pan, Christians are the overwhelming majority.

Statistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Thus the government that is in power was voted in by you and is representing you. It's actions are your responsibility.

Christians aren't a majority. People who kinda really not really but sorta believe Christianity might have some truth to it, are the majority.

 

[pancakeface]

Sorry Pan, Christians are the overwhelming majority.

Statistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Thus the government that is in power was voted in by you and is representing you. It's actions are your responsibility.

Mate, governmental religious figures are pointless as statistics for real religious practice. 77% of Americans identify with Christianity as their religion. I'd say less than half of those practice.

93% of people in Northern Ireland class themselves as Christian, 45% of which are Catholic and 48% of which are Protestant. 7% of the Northern Ireland population are practicing Christians. How does that add up? Simple. Religious affiliation, as a governmental statistic, only need be professed, stated on paper, or ticked in a box.

Sorry dude, most of those people don't believe (nor practice) in the things they profess to believe in. Underneath the surface, the majority of Americans (and Britons) are more atheist than christian.

 

[pancakeface]

Hey, why else would we be funding a 'war-on-terrorism' terror campaign?

 

[Drett]

Mate, governmental religious figures are pointless as statistics for real religious practice. 77% of Americans identify with Christianity as their religion. I'd say less than half of those practice.

93% of people in Northern Ireland class themselves as Christian, 45% of which are Catholic and 48% of which are Protestant. 7% of the Northern Ireland population are practicing Christians. How does that add up? Simple. Religious affiliation, as a governmental statistic, only need be professed, stated on paper, or ticked in a box.

Sorry dude, most of those people don't believe (nor practice) in the things they profess to believe in. Underneath the surface, the majority of Americans (and Britons) are more atheist than christian.

So you say the reason is that Christians are not practicing. Yet the media and this chat has no problems linking non practicing Muslims to Islam. I am wondering why I can't go with the flow ?

 

[pancakeface]

So you say the reason is that Christians are not practicing. Yet the media and this chat has no problems linking non practicing Muslims to Islam. I am wondering why I can't go with the flow ?

Hey you can leave me out of that. I'll say as quick as any that I have muslim friends, and the extremists (non practicing muslims) aren't the real deal. Besides, why do you want to go with that stereotypical flow anyway? It's idiotic.

 

[Drett]

Hey you can leave me out of that. I'll say as quick as any that I have muslim friends, and the extremists (non practicing muslims) aren't the real deal. Besides, why do you want to go with that stereotypical flow anyway? It's idiotic.

Exactly...

 

[pancakeface]

Exactly...

So .. I get the feeling you wanted to prove a point with that. Or are you agreeing then? That most christians don't practice? Therefore, they're the minority?

 

[Drett]

So .. I get the feeling you wanted to prove a point with that. Or are you agreeing then? That most christians don't practice? Therefore, they're the minority?

No the point I make is on both sides you have people that do not practice. One side they do not represent the religion they are not practicing and the other side they do.

Comments, in a thread earlier speaking of this, from practicing Christians here were generally that they are not of this world and leave the issues of this world to others. That is my understanding.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Well you need to take another look at it. The two epistemologies are different. When a Muslim engages in Jihad, he is aligning with Islamic epistemology. When a Christian does so, he is doing so in violation of Christian epistemology.

In other words, when a Muslim does it they are following the teachings of Mohammad but when a Christian does it they are violating the teachings of Christ.

BIG difference. You never noticed.

Muslims killing Christians, Christians killing muslims. Some things will never change, because it's impossible to educate every human being. This will always be the case. Muslims face discrimination in the west and Christians alike in the East. I don't discriminate, so that's a start towards change. That's how I look at it.

 

[Drett]

Well you need to take another look at it. The two epistemologies are different. When a Muslim engages in Jihad, he is aligning with Islamic epistemology. When a Christian does so, he is doing so in violation of Christian epistemology.

In other words, when a Muslim does it they are following the teachings of Mohammad but when a Christian does it they are violating the teachings of Christ.

BIG difference. You never noticed.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Interestingly, while homosexuals comprise about 1.7% of the population (3.5% if you include the entire LGBT population), in Washington DC they are 10%. The seat of power is crawling with special interests, degeneracy, and corruption at levels unseen in the American population.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Drett: Do you think a people that protect a city against a force more than triple its size should be rewarded?

Age: What are you talking about?

Drett: Compulsory military service was used in the Vietnam war. Those that refused to fight were punished. Is protecting your families lives more important that fighting a battle in someone elses country?

Age: You're obviously not qualified to discuss this topic as you appear completely clueless about the purpose of the Vietnam War. Much of the world was under the boot of state atheistic Marxism regimes who were committing democide (they murdered well over 100 million people in the 20th century) and oppressing, robbing, torturing, imprisoning, and seriously persecuting hundreds of millions more. The Vietnam War was initiated to stop the domino effect of nations falling under the boot of the Soviet Union until we could defeat them via socio-economic political means. As a Cold War veteran that served, I can tell you emphatically that we never went to Vietnam to "win" the Vietnam War but to fight a holding action as a tactic in a much bigger strategy that worked like a charm. Unfortunately, neo-conservatist elements in the Republican party came to dominate the party superseding the paleoconservatist elements at the very end under Ronald Reagan and the U.S. never stood down after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 and with the continuance under the Democrats as well we now have unending U.S. hawk foreign policy that should have ended in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union. It is unfortunate that government bureaucracy sometimes takes on a life of its own. The rapidly increasing national debt will eventually bring it to a halt if politicians will not.

Drett: That is the problem Christianity faces. It has no guidelines on how to act as a collective. All doctrine is targetted to the individual, so you need to outsource the decisions needed to kill the enemy to a group that has removed God from their decision process.

Age: You obviously don't understand Christianity and society. Christian epistemology definitely has guidelines for both the church and society. You're making a false assertion here based on your ignorance. Read the college textbook 'SOCIOLOGY: A Christian Approach for Changing the World.'

Drett: The problem now is that same group that has removed God from its decision process is now bringing in laws which allows homosexuals to marry and raise children. Germany is bringing in bestiality brothels. There is a moral decay because God has taken a back seat.

Age: You got that right!

 

[Drett]

Drett: Do you think a people that protect a city against a force more than triple its size should be rewarded?

Age: What are you talking about?

Hi Age

Sorry to be unclear. The verses to the Muslims in the Quran surrounding fighting of the unbelievers were surrounding the three wars I mentioned where Muslims were fighting for their lives. They were instructions on how they should act. The reward stated for figting in the Quran was a morale boost for people to fight what seemly was an impossible war to win.

I bow to your superior knowledge on Christianity.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Sorry Pan, Christians are the overwhelming majority.

Statistics on Religion in America Report -- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Thus the government that is in power was voted in by you and is representing you. It's actions are your responsibility.

Nope, not my responsibility and not anybody else's here. I don't vote period but even if I did....Our voting system really doesn't give us the choice by majority rule anyway despite mass brainwashing to the contrary. We have what is called an "Electoral College".....even if the people vote in majority for one candidate, it doesn't make any bit of difference if the people that make up the Electoral College vote majority is for the other guy.

We didn't elect George Bush Jr. when he became president.....Al Gore won the people's majority vote....but it didn't make one bit of difference because the Electoral College voted for Bush. All this "your vote counts, representative government, yada yada yada" is just a big lie. I bet you could ask anybody here to name one member of the Electoral College without doing an Internet search or picking up a book and they couldn't tell you......and those are the people who really choose who becomes president. We have no control as ordinary citizens, at all


The government we have does not represent me and if they were brave enough to put a "You are ALL Fired!" box on the election ballot, that's what the majority of us would pick but we don't have that option.