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It's sad that among all of us sinners, homosexuals have a particularly bad reputation. If there is a single person out there, whose only sin is homosexuality.. Then I am not fit to carry their sandals.
As for the article, I didn't read it. I don't like how the title separates people by race. (Generation Y.. booyah.)
As for the article, I didn't read it. I don't like how the title separates people by race. (Generation Y.. booyah.)
Most of where we disagree on this issue is what homosexuality actually is, and that's where things get tricky. You'd find that I, the medical and scientific community, and some more liberal Christians (example: FSUboy) agree that homosexuality is a part of someone that they can't change, they can't help it, it's just who they are and there's nothing wrong with that. This is what we believe about homosexuals based on science and evidence. So I'd just like to explain to you all, a bit about why this is such an emotional and important topic for us, and maybe understanding where we come from will help you all potentially change your minds!
Christians who (honestly mean the best! You're not trying to be harmful with your words I'm sure, they just have an effect you may not be aware of!) say things such as love the sinner, hate the sin... Well the so called "sin" is something they can't help anymore than what the color of their eyes is, and it's not even anything wrong because it doesn't hurt anyone! But the most important thing is that it's something that they have no control over and it's just who they are. And they're being told that that particular thing about them is wrong and evil and they need to change it? It's like asking them to change the color of their eyes. And it's hurtful to be told that something about them they cannot change is evil... Very hurtful. Please keep in mind that a lot of the emotional damage comes from guilt. Being told that something they can't help about themselves is wrong and evil can make them feel sick and miserable with guilt, when who they are isn't hurting anyone!
I understand that many Christians disagree that it's something that can't be helped, and I don't want to start arguing about that particular issue. But with this post I'm just explaining why the non-religious like myself, the scientific and medical community, and quite a few Christians as well, would in general oppose people calling homosexuality evil, and oppose the attempts to turn homosexuals straight (because those programs have been proven to potentially cause harmful emotional and psychological damage!) So I hope that this post brings you guys some perspective on why some of us are very passionate about this issue. It's not because we want to fight, it's because we really do care about homosexual people and we're trying to make the world a safer and better place for them to live in equality and peace
I may be a bit more zealous and intense about this issue because I've firsthand seen the effects that anti-homosexuality can have on someone I care about's emotions... It's not pretty.
It's ok if you disagree with us, and you believe homosexuality is a choice... I think you're very wrong about that but I respect your freedom to hold your own beliefs. Even if you disagree with us however, I hope this post helps you understand a few things that may not have been clear before
Christians who (honestly mean the best! You're not trying to be harmful with your words I'm sure, they just have an effect you may not be aware of!) say things such as love the sinner, hate the sin... Well the so called "sin" is something they can't help anymore than what the color of their eyes is, and it's not even anything wrong because it doesn't hurt anyone! But the most important thing is that it's something that they have no control over and it's just who they are. And they're being told that that particular thing about them is wrong and evil and they need to change it? It's like asking them to change the color of their eyes. And it's hurtful to be told that something about them they cannot change is evil... Very hurtful. Please keep in mind that a lot of the emotional damage comes from guilt. Being told that something they can't help about themselves is wrong and evil can make them feel sick and miserable with guilt, when who they are isn't hurting anyone!
I understand that many Christians disagree that it's something that can't be helped, and I don't want to start arguing about that particular issue. But with this post I'm just explaining why the non-religious like myself, the scientific and medical community, and quite a few Christians as well, would in general oppose people calling homosexuality evil, and oppose the attempts to turn homosexuals straight (because those programs have been proven to potentially cause harmful emotional and psychological damage!) So I hope that this post brings you guys some perspective on why some of us are very passionate about this issue. It's not because we want to fight, it's because we really do care about homosexual people and we're trying to make the world a safer and better place for them to live in equality and peace
I may be a bit more zealous and intense about this issue because I've firsthand seen the effects that anti-homosexuality can have on someone I care about's emotions... It's not pretty.It's ok if you disagree with us, and you believe homosexuality is a choice... I think you're very wrong about that but I respect your freedom to hold your own beliefs. Even if you disagree with us however, I hope this post helps you understand a few things that may not have been clear before
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It is a sin. I feel as if "liberal Christians" try to sculpt God into what they want in instances such as these. It's clear in the Bible that it's a sin. If you throw that out, might as well throw out the rest. Argue about the wording, might as well argue about the rest. The Bible isn't something to suit your needs.
You're using science to argue about the Almighty? God=holy. Science=well.. the whole global heating issue speaks for itself.
If you want to look at it from a scientific standpoint: why would you be gay? How does that help our natural need as a species to reproduce? It doesn't.
What you are saying about the sin of homosexuality is incorrect. It's like saying that me being lustful in a heterosexual manner is who I am and I cannot change it so that makes it okay. So by your statement.. hey, might as well fornicate, right?
I cannot change. But thankfully I have a wonderful Savior, and all things (even change) are possible through Him. Homosexuals can change as well.
You cannot say that they can't change through the Lord from a biblical standpoint. Period.
So although I think that the whole homosexuality issue is emphasized unproportionally, it is still a sin.
You're using science to argue about the Almighty? God=holy. Science=well.. the whole global heating issue speaks for itself.
If you want to look at it from a scientific standpoint: why would you be gay? How does that help our natural need as a species to reproduce? It doesn't.
What you are saying about the sin of homosexuality is incorrect. It's like saying that me being lustful in a heterosexual manner is who I am and I cannot change it so that makes it okay. So by your statement.. hey, might as well fornicate, right?
I cannot change. But thankfully I have a wonderful Savior, and all things (even change) are possible through Him. Homosexuals can change as well.
You cannot say that they can't change through the Lord from a biblical standpoint. Period.
So although I think that the whole homosexuality issue is emphasized unproportionally, it is still a sin.
That's not entirely true. If you're going to pretend to nod a head towards science, you might want to read Dawkin's The Selfish Gene; an individual doesn't have to reproduce personally to help the species (or, in fact, individual genes). Among lions, for instance, it would be chaos if some males didn't step back from trying to breed, so in the final analysis their enforced celibacy is a boon to the entire tribe.
Evolution is not just about trying to get as many babies out there as possible. Reproduction is one aspect; survival is another.
Evolution is not just about trying to get as many babies out there as possible. Reproduction is one aspect; survival is another.
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You're considering a lion abstaining from sex in order to avoid getting ripped apart by a bigger, stronger lion with homosexuality?
Or even worse by the theory of survival of the fittest you're saying that homosexuals, since their genes aren't being passed on, are inferior. And that's sick.
Or even worse by the theory of survival of the fittest you're saying that homosexuals, since their genes aren't being passed on, are inferior. And that's sick.
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I'm giving you an example of a species' reproductive strategy which puts restraints on an individual's reproductive capacity for the good of a whole. You argued that each individual's strategy must necessarily lead to him or her having babies, if we're to go by evolution. I say this is incorrect and give an example. Since you obviously weren't going to agree with me about human homosexuality, I thought you might be more amenable to something that anybody can observe in nature, regardless of their ideology.
You're mistaken. In the future, you might want to ask, rather than assert, because this is wildly incorrect. Again, you might want to read that book. It will clear up a lot of your confusion.
You're mistaken. In the future, you might want to ask, rather than assert, because this is wildly incorrect. Again, you might want to read that book. It will clear up a lot of your confusion.
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If you really want me to read that book, give me a reason stated in that book that contradicts my rationale. Was I incorrect in suggesting that the reason the lions abstained from sex was the threat? What about with the survival of the fittest theory and what it would mean for those that do not wish to be with their gender opposites?
I apologize for my synical phrasing. I didn't actually mean to accuse you of suggesting that homosexuals were inferior. I simply meant that was where logic and reasoning lead me.
I apologize for my synical phrasing. I didn't actually mean to accuse you of suggesting that homosexuals were inferior. I simply meant that was where logic and reasoning lead me.
Oh please. We know what you wrote. No, you're not using logic and reasoning. You have at best a vague familiarity with evolution and you're a rabid slave of your ideology who just couldn't wait to push out what you thought was an obvious contradiction.
An individual does not necessarily have to engage in reproduction himself to benefit the species. In fact, in many cases, if each individual is set on reproduction this leads to chaos, since, for example, breeding females are sometimes very rare and there are too many males fighting for them. By refraining from trying to mate, an individual can help the species survive by avoiding expensive fights. The example I gave of the lions falls under this strategy.
Also, by refraining from trying to mate an individual can use his resources on other aspects of keeping the species going. As a modern example, note that, because most homosexuals do not have children to take care of, we tend to have more expendable income than most heterosexuals who have children. I have personally used some of this income to take care of the children of other married couples.
There's no reason to suspect this wouldn't have been the case in the past. In ages past, I wouldn't have been taking care of kids, so I would have had more time to hunt, fish, tend to the garden, etc. I would be more free, as I probably wouldn't be tied down in a dyadic pair. I also have more freedom with my friends' wives - just a couple of nights ago, a female friend spent the night because her husband was on a business trip and she hates staying in the house alone. We even slept in the same room. And you know what? She probably was safer.
But let's take your insistence that if a person doesn't personally pass his genes along, evolution says they're inferior. To the contrary, if you'd done any research on modern evolutionary theory, you'd know that an individual, even if he does not breed, may in fact be passing along his own genes. How's that? I share around 50% of my DNA with my brothers and sisters. By using all my gay powers, I can help them with their children and so my genes do get passed along. And yes, this has happened in my own life. I have taken care of the children of relatives, who were not able to take care of them themselves. In the old days, when populations were smaller and nearly everybody in an area would have been related, this would have been more common.
As an aside (that I think is pretty cute), most male cuttlefish, when they're trying to breed, puff themselves up and put on displays of color for the females. A small percentage of male cuttlefish, though, shrink themselves down and make themselves look like females. They sneak up to the actual females, avoiding all the fighting males, and deposit their sperm. They're not gay, obviously, but transvestites.
Perhaps we've got you all fooled and are impregnating women behind your backs... but yes, it helps our species in general that there are men to whom your wives can talk when their husbands are being stupid.
An individual does not necessarily have to engage in reproduction himself to benefit the species. In fact, in many cases, if each individual is set on reproduction this leads to chaos, since, for example, breeding females are sometimes very rare and there are too many males fighting for them. By refraining from trying to mate, an individual can help the species survive by avoiding expensive fights. The example I gave of the lions falls under this strategy.
Also, by refraining from trying to mate an individual can use his resources on other aspects of keeping the species going. As a modern example, note that, because most homosexuals do not have children to take care of, we tend to have more expendable income than most heterosexuals who have children. I have personally used some of this income to take care of the children of other married couples.
There's no reason to suspect this wouldn't have been the case in the past. In ages past, I wouldn't have been taking care of kids, so I would have had more time to hunt, fish, tend to the garden, etc. I would be more free, as I probably wouldn't be tied down in a dyadic pair. I also have more freedom with my friends' wives - just a couple of nights ago, a female friend spent the night because her husband was on a business trip and she hates staying in the house alone. We even slept in the same room. And you know what? She probably was safer.
But let's take your insistence that if a person doesn't personally pass his genes along, evolution says they're inferior. To the contrary, if you'd done any research on modern evolutionary theory, you'd know that an individual, even if he does not breed, may in fact be passing along his own genes. How's that? I share around 50% of my DNA with my brothers and sisters. By using all my gay powers, I can help them with their children and so my genes do get passed along. And yes, this has happened in my own life. I have taken care of the children of relatives, who were not able to take care of them themselves. In the old days, when populations were smaller and nearly everybody in an area would have been related, this would have been more common.
As an aside (that I think is pretty cute), most male cuttlefish, when they're trying to breed, puff themselves up and put on displays of color for the females. A small percentage of male cuttlefish, though, shrink themselves down and make themselves look like females. They sneak up to the actual females, avoiding all the fighting males, and deposit their sperm. They're not gay, obviously, but transvestites.
Perhaps we've got you all fooled and are impregnating women behind your backs... but yes, it helps our species in general that there are men to whom your wives can talk when their husbands are being stupid.
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"Oh please. We know what you wrote." Okay. Even though I apologized, and do mean it sincerely, I'll bite.
I SAID: "Or even worse BY the theory of survival of the fittest" not "by what you said."
Some of what you say I find comical and see no proof this makes your point anymore than my proof makes mine. Could that be my folly? Sure. I do not believe that to be the case. I think you're equally as endeavored to your ideology as I am to mine.
No, I am not majoring in science, nor do I have a personal fascination with evolution. However, you haven't disproven my logic and reasoning that I wasn't using.
I SAID: "Or even worse BY the theory of survival of the fittest" not "by what you said."
Some of what you say I find comical and see no proof this makes your point anymore than my proof makes mine. Could that be my folly? Sure. I do not believe that to be the case. I think you're equally as endeavored to your ideology as I am to mine.
No, I am not majoring in science, nor do I have a personal fascination with evolution. However, you haven't disproven my logic and reasoning that I wasn't using.
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The actual quote is:
Emphasis mine, obviously. You'd simply prefer for this phrase to vanish. Again, though, we can all scroll up. Why did you stop quoting at that point? Did you think I wouldn't notice that in this response? Here's the deal - you can't simultaneously apologize and said you did nothing wrong.
Here's the score as I read it. You pretended to know more about modern science and evolution than you do. I called you on it and gave you a counterexample to your claim. You responded... badly. I gave a fuller explanation. You responded badly again. Now, you're letting yourself get side-tracked because you don't want to man up to being a jerk about an argument nobody had made.
I'm not sure how seriously you expect to be taken, since you've not familiarized yourself with the most recent ideas of the science you're pretending to explain. I'm not sure how seriously you expect to be taken, since very early on in the conversation you got snarky about a claim nobody'd made or, in fact, would ever make.
You believe that homosexuality is a sin, but you also believe (and act) wrongly in casual debates on the net. What are strangers to make of that? You're unqualified to make statements about science, yet do so anyway, but we're supposed to trust you on religion?
I'm skeptical you've put any more work into faith than you have into evolution.
Emphasis mine, obviously. You'd simply prefer for this phrase to vanish. Again, though, we can all scroll up. Why did you stop quoting at that point? Did you think I wouldn't notice that in this response? Here's the deal - you can't simultaneously apologize and said you did nothing wrong.
Here's the score as I read it. You pretended to know more about modern science and evolution than you do. I called you on it and gave you a counterexample to your claim. You responded... badly. I gave a fuller explanation. You responded badly again. Now, you're letting yourself get side-tracked because you don't want to man up to being a jerk about an argument nobody had made.
I'm not sure how seriously you expect to be taken, since you've not familiarized yourself with the most recent ideas of the science you're pretending to explain. I'm not sure how seriously you expect to be taken, since very early on in the conversation you got snarky about a claim nobody'd made or, in fact, would ever make.
You believe that homosexuality is a sin, but you also believe (and act) wrongly in casual debates on the net. What are strangers to make of that? You're unqualified to make statements about science, yet do so anyway, but we're supposed to trust you on religion?
I'm skeptical you've put any more work into faith than you have into evolution.
Mostly directed towards ASK.
This truly is where the issue has gotten tricky... I want to avoid conflict, but I'm going to trust in you, and hope that things stay peaceful and civil here, as you seem like a respectful person. I would just like to provide an alternative view for the way you think about the issue, I don't want to push anything, I just want to let you know what my reasoning is I was still a very dedicated Christian back when I lost my belief that homosexuality was evil, and remained a Christian who believed there was nothing wrong with homosexuals. So I'd like to explain why I reversed that way of thought...
I don't want to spend much time on science, but here's some quick evidence that genes and birth order play a very large role, and that people can be born homosexual, as well as evidence that goes against the idea that homosexuality is a choice...
Off the science now, here's what really changed me, made me realize that I was wrong... I saw people who were in a living hell, their families and churches and communities disowning them, calling them evil. I saw them cry and wish more than anything that they could be straight so they could have a family and community that loved them instead of hated them. I saw people who would have done anything, I mean anything to not be homosexual because of the horrid treatment they were receiving. I saw them start to believe what their family and what the church was telling them, they believed that they were evil and wrong, and an abomination in the eyes of god. I saw them go from happy people to people who thought their life was worth nothing, and that they don't deserve to live. They considered killing themselves they felt so miserable and unworthy of living, and many teenagers have committed suicide already, and it absolutely breaks my heart that they were driven to such a fate.
They couldn't stop the feelings, they couldn't just choose not be homosexual, they were gay, and they hated themselves for it... What I saw first hand, is happening every day to others... My point is that there is no way they would have chosen such a thing, to be thrown out by everyone they love, to be made to feel that they are worthless, evil human beings. How could I look into their eyes and tell them they're just making a choice? That they could just snap out of it and be normal like everyone else? I couldn't do it, I broke down too, and I had to conclude it was something that cannot be helped.
Also just a quick footnote, the Bible does say homosexuality is a sin, but it also speaks against tattoos (Leviticus 19:28) in the same book and near to the same place that it condemns homosexuality. There are a lot of other things the Bible says that Christians today don't think about... When I was a Christian I concluded that the Old Testament's condemnations of such things was just for the time and culture, and that things like homosexuality and tattoos were ok in the modern world. Since then I've lost my Christian faith but I still know many Christians and even pastors and church leaders who believed the same way I did, and are very strong, Jesus loving Christians.
Anyways, sorry for the length, this is a very close and personal issue to me due to my experiences witnessing the pain that people I deeply cared about had to go through because they were gay. I just wanted to explain why I believe the way I do, peacefully and rationally. Please know that I don't have any negative opinions towards any of you I'm talking to due to your beliefs, I love Christians as well as people of any other religion. I respect you all and I mean nothing more than to help you understand why I think the way I do.
This truly is where the issue has gotten tricky... I want to avoid conflict, but I'm going to trust in you, and hope that things stay peaceful and civil here, as you seem like a respectful person. I would just like to provide an alternative view for the way you think about the issue, I don't want to push anything, I just want to let you know what my reasoning is
I was still a very dedicated Christian back when I lost my belief that homosexuality was evil, and remained a Christian who believed there was nothing wrong with homosexuals. So I'd like to explain why I reversed that way of thought...I don't want to spend much time on science, but here's some quick evidence that genes and birth order play a very large role, and that people can be born homosexual, as well as evidence that goes against the idea that homosexuality is a choice...
- A significant number of different species of animals have documented and proven homosexual relationships, it is a common occurence in nature. Based on this I concluded that homosexuality couldn't be a human rebellion against god as a choice only.
- When there's twins, 70% of the time when one is gay, the other twin is too, this is far too high happen if genes played no role.
- Studies have shown that having older brothers very much increases the chance of a boy being homosexual, when a woman is pregnant with a boy, her body often sees the male fetus as a foreign object, and begins producing antibodies against it, the more boys a woman has, the more adept her body becomes at feminizing the fetus.
Off the science now, here's what really changed me, made me realize that I was wrong... I saw people who were in a living hell, their families and churches and communities disowning them, calling them evil. I saw them cry and wish more than anything that they could be straight so they could have a family and community that loved them instead of hated them. I saw people who would have done anything, I mean anything to not be homosexual because of the horrid treatment they were receiving. I saw them start to believe what their family and what the church was telling them, they believed that they were evil and wrong, and an abomination in the eyes of god. I saw them go from happy people to people who thought their life was worth nothing, and that they don't deserve to live. They considered killing themselves they felt so miserable and unworthy of living, and many teenagers have committed suicide already, and it absolutely breaks my heart that they were driven to such a fate.
They couldn't stop the feelings, they couldn't just choose not be homosexual, they were gay, and they hated themselves for it... What I saw first hand, is happening every day to others... My point is that there is no way they would have chosen such a thing, to be thrown out by everyone they love, to be made to feel that they are worthless, evil human beings. How could I look into their eyes and tell them they're just making a choice? That they could just snap out of it and be normal like everyone else? I couldn't do it, I broke down too, and I had to conclude it was something that cannot be helped.
Also just a quick footnote, the Bible does say homosexuality is a sin, but it also speaks against tattoos (Leviticus 19:28) in the same book and near to the same place that it condemns homosexuality. There are a lot of other things the Bible says that Christians today don't think about... When I was a Christian I concluded that the Old Testament's condemnations of such things was just for the time and culture, and that things like homosexuality and tattoos were ok in the modern world. Since then I've lost my Christian faith but I still know many Christians and even pastors and church leaders who believed the same way I did, and are very strong, Jesus loving Christians.
Anyways, sorry for the length, this is a very close and personal issue to me due to my experiences witnessing the pain that people I deeply cared about had to go through because they were gay. I just wanted to explain why I believe the way I do, peacefully and rationally. Please know that I don't have any negative opinions towards any of you I'm talking to due to your beliefs, I love Christians as well as people of any other religion. I respect you all and I mean nothing more than to help you understand why I think the way I do.
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"I apologize for my synical phrasing." That was what I apologized for. I said it was wrong. I did not back track on that whatsoever, nor will I. I was wrong, I am sorry.
I was using "you're saying" in a hypothetical manner. As I've explained, I didn't mean that is actually what you were trying to convey. If that's not your preference in the usage of the English language, then I appologize that my words seemed even more synical.
Perhaps there is something here that I simply do not understand. I still do not see what evidence you've brought forth to put aside mine.
No, don't trust me on religion. I am a fool, and a hypocrite. Read the Bible. Trust God's word.
I was using "you're saying" in a hypothetical manner. As I've explained, I didn't mean that is actually what you were trying to convey. If that's not your preference in the usage of the English language, then I appologize that my words seemed even more synical.
Perhaps there is something here that I simply do not understand. I still do not see what evidence you've brought forth to put aside mine.
No, don't trust me on religion. I am a fool, and a hypocrite. Read the Bible. Trust God's word.
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To Laylie.
Science aside, our opinions only truly differ on homosexuality being a sin.
As I said I believe the controversy surrounding homosexuality is overemphasized. If Christians acted more like Christ and reached out with love, things would be different. That doesn't prove that the Bible is wrong. It proves that us Christians are wrong.
Thank you for putting it so delicately.
Science aside, our opinions only truly differ on homosexuality being a sin.
As I said I believe the controversy surrounding homosexuality is overemphasized. If Christians acted more like Christ and reached out with love, things would be different. That doesn't prove that the Bible is wrong. It proves that us Christians are wrong.
Thank you for putting it so delicately.
I really hope that one day, you live by that humility you're trying to feign here. I also hope that one day, your god calls you to account for every heart you've hurt in his name. Today you might think you're spreading the gospel in love, but your god can scroll up too.
Goodbye, y'all. This is a waste of time.
Goodbye, y'all. This is a waste of time.