"Why Blacks Should Be Homophobic" interesting blog by G Craig Lewis

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

juliet84

Guest
#41
I dont think homosexuality is wrong. I am bi and cool about it. God is all about love, right? So caring loving relationships are cool. All of this 'The bible says it is wrong" is silly. The Bible says lots of things are wrong (like answering back to your parents means they can kill you !). You can take everything as true. the only people who say this are nutters or those who dont read the whole Bible, but just the bits they choose.
This is the reason why you need to read the whole chapter of Romans. Paul wrote to the people who had this exact mindset like you. Just because God is love doesnt mean you can do whatever it is that you want that is against the Scriptures.

"The Bible says lots of things are wrong (like answering back to your parents means they can kill you !)" ?????

Give me the exact verse on this please.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Apr 24, 2011
184
2
0
31
#42
This is the reason why you need to read the whole chapter of Romans. Paul wrote to the people who had this exact mindset like you. Just because God is love doesnt mean you can do whatever it is that you want that is against the Scriptures.

"The Bible says lots of things are wrong (like answering back to your parents means they can kill you !)"

Give me the exact verse on this please.
Deuteronomy 21:20-21, Leviticus 20:9, and Exodus 21:15.

The Bible also says you can't have tattoos (Leviticus 19:28) in nearly the same place it condemns homosexuality, and has some other parts that most Christians don't agree with... But it's OK! The point is what you believe specifically about the Old Testament is not what's important to being a Christian. Following Christ and loving others is what it's all about. You have to work out yourself which parts of the Old Testament you want to interpret a certain way, or think apply today, or whatever. It doesn't really matter what you happen to believe about the Old Testament, just love everyone like Jesus did. :)

Some of the most wonderful, loving, selfless Christians I know don't believe many of the parts of the Old Testament are to be taken seriously today or interpreted literally, but that stuff doesn't effect how close they are to Jesus and how much they care for others. I'm sure you're a great person Juliet and I respect that you hold your own views, I'm also sure you follow Jesus and love people as I described above, I don't mean to say you don't. I don't want to offend or hurt you with anything I say, just provide a friendly alternative point of view <3
 
Last edited:
J

juliet84

Guest
#43
Deuteronomy 21:20-21, Leviticus 20:9, and Exodus 21:15.

The Bible also says you can't have tattoos (Leviticus 19:28) in nearly the same place it condemns homosexuality, and has some other parts that most Christians don't agree with... But it's OK! The point is what you believe specifically about the Old Testament is not what's important to being a Christian. Following Christ and loving others is what it's all about. You have to work out yourself which parts of the Old Testament you want to interpret a certain way, or think apply today, or whatever. It doesn't really matter what you happen to believe about the Old Testament, just love everyone like Jesus did. :)

Some of the most wonderful, loving, selfless Christians I know don't believe many of the parts of the Old Testament are to be taken seriously today or interpreted literally, but that stuff doesn't effect how close they are to Jesus and how much they care for others. I'm sure you're a great person Juliet and I respect that you hold your own views, I'm also sure you follow Jesus and love people as I described above, I don't mean to say you don't. I don't want to offend or hurt you with anything I say, just provide a friendly alternative point of view <3
Thank you for your post Laylie. But Romans is in a New Testament,.And like Angelos quoted a verse of it that says homosexuality is wrong. The verse you were referring to about tattoo. Watch this video:

YouTube - Can a Christian get a Tattoo?
 
Apr 24, 2011
184
2
0
31
#44
Thank you for your post Laylie. But Romans is in a New Testament,.And like Angelos quoted a verse of it that says homosexuality is wrong. The verse you were referring to about tattoo. Watch this video:

YouTube - Can a Christian get a Tattoo?
I see where you're coming from, and I respect that you believe the way you do. I believe differently however, let me just explain the way I think about it.

I believe the book of Romans you're referencing is speaking out against paganism and idolatry and the like, not homosexuality. The Book of Romans was just a bunch of letters written by Paul. See the Romans believed in many pagan gods, and Paul was speaking against these cults and pagan rituals. There was some homosexuality involved in some of the pagan worship and I believe Paul wrote that part of Romans entirely against the cults and false religion of the time.

The video is OK with tattoos for the same reason that many Christians are OK with homosexuality. This doesn't explain why tattoos are fine but homosexuality is a sin. It's just people making choices on how to interpret and what they think is best to believe.

I just want to emphasize that Christians shouldn't be thinking about who has the "right" interpretation of the Bible, following the teachings of Christ, and loving and helping others is so important I think it should unite all Christians despite their differences in Biblical views. Thanks for having this conversation with me peacefully, I appreciate it. :)
 
J

juliet84

Guest
#45
I see where you're coming from, and I respect that you believe the way you do. I believe differently however, let me just explain the way I think about it.

I believe the book of Romans you're referencing is speaking out against paganism and idolatry and the like, not homosexuality. The Book of Romans was just a bunch of letters written by Paul. See the Romans believed in many pagan gods, and Paul was speaking against these cults and pagan rituals. There was some homosexuality involved in some of the pagan worship and I believe Paul wrote that part of Romans entirely against the cults and false religion of the time.

The video is OK with tattoos for the same reason that many Christians are OK with homosexuality. This doesn't explain why tattoos are fine but homosexuality is a sin. It's just people making choices on how to interpret and what they think is best to believe.

I just want to emphasize that Christians shouldn't be thinking about who has the "right" interpretation of the Bible, following the teachings of Christ, and loving and helping others is so important I think it should unite all Christians despite their differences in Biblical views. Thanks for having this conversation with me peacefully, I appreciate it. :)
My dear friend, are you really sure that Romans is about pagans and cult rituals? Probably you should learn more about why Paul wrote that letter.

He wrote that letter because he had heard some Christians in Rome were beginning to fancy a heretical doctrine known as antinomianism- which basically meant that they were twisting the truth of the Good News into practice immorality. Their distorted logic was "Since our sins are covered by the blood of Christ and were already forgotten, lets do whatever we want". I think you should read the whole chapter and study that letter further for better understanding.
 
Apr 24, 2011
184
2
0
31
#46
My dear friend, are you really sure that Romans is about pagans and cult rituals? Probably you should learn more about why Paul wrote that letter.

He wrote that letter because he had heard some Christians in Rome were beginning to fancy a heretical doctrine known as antinomianism- which basically meant that they were twisting the truth of the Good News into practice immorality. Their distorted logic was "Since our sins are covered by the blood of Christ and were already forgotten, lets do whatever we want". I think you should read the whole chapter and study that letter further for better understanding.
I believe you are mistaken about that context, but I would be open to reading something you may have to back up your interpretation and study the matter further. But I also believe that whatever Paul was truly saying is irrelevant. Personally I don't believe any of the Bible, I'm just attempting to help everyone understand how it can be interpreted differently and why many of the things said in it maybe shouldn't be applied today, things like anti-homosexuality and executing children who treat their parents poorly. Clearly you have your own interpretation/beliefs on the matter as do I, I don't see a point in discussing the scripture further. What's really important to me and many others, is sparing innocent people who've never hurt anyone the pain that I've discussed thoroughly in my earlier posts in this thread.

Sure we have our disagreements about the validity of the Bible, and the different interpretations that one can have regarding it, but at the end of the day I would hope that we could all agree that we shouldn't put anyone through abuse that emotionally and even physically damages them. I hope more Christians begin to understand this and be very careful with their words, there are many gay teenagers being driven to grief, depression, and sometimes even suicide as we speak, I just want to make the world a better place for them.

I'm sorry, I know I've been a little confusing to follow, my apologies. I got a little disjointed and sidetracked from my main point, which I've reiterated just above. I'm trying to put this as considerately as possible but I know I have my failures in that area too.
 
J

juliet84

Guest
#47
I believe you are mistaken about that context, but I would be open to reading something you may have to back up your interpretation and study the matter further. But I also believe that whatever Paul was truly saying is irrelevant. Personally I don't believe any of the Bible, I'm just attempting to help everyone understand how it can be interpreted differently and why many of the things said in it maybe shouldn't be applied today, things like anti-homosexuality and executing children who treat their parents poorly. Clearly you have your own interpretation/beliefs on the matter as do I, I don't see a point in discussing the scripture further. What's really important to me and many others, is sparing innocent people who've never hurt anyone the pain that I've discussed thoroughly in my earlier posts in this thread.

Sure we have our disagreements about the validity of the Bible, and the different interpretations that one can have regarding it, but at the end of the day I would hope that we could all agree that we shouldn't put anyone through abuse that emotionally and even physically damages them. I hope more Christians begin to understand this and be very careful with their words, there are many gay teenagers being driven to grief, depression, and sometimes even suicide as we speak, I just want to make the world a better place for them.

I'm sorry, I know I've been a little confusing to follow, my apologies. I got a little disjointed and sidetracked from my main point, which I've reiterated just above. I'm trying to put this as considerately as possible but I know I have my failures in that area too.
Our views are different because we both have a different faith. (As I can see in your profile that you are not a Christian). However, I'd like to ask you not to give out false information about the Bible. You already made two mistakes here about Romans. (as you thought it is in Old Testament, and you think its about written about pagans and cult rituals) Have you actually read and studied it deeply? Scriptures say God's Words are hard to be accepted to some people. And I understand why the words in the Bible are hard for you and some others to accept. Scriptures also say that "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy" (Revelation : 22:11)
 
Apr 24, 2011
184
2
0
31
#48
Our views are different because we both have a different faith. (As I can see in your profile that you are not a Christian). However, I'd like to ask you not to give out false information about the Bible. You already made two mistakes here about Romans. (as you thought it is in Old Testament, and you think its about written about pagans and cult rituals) Have you actually read and studied it deeply? Scriptures say God's Words are hard to be accepted to some people. And I understand why the words in the Bible are hard for you and some others to accept. Scriptures also say that "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy" (Revelation : 22:11)
Actually I knew Romans was New Testament. I was referring to Leviticus when I said Old Testament, which is the most popular and well known place in the Bible referencing homosexuality. And I'm not sure that the second thing you mentioned is a mistake, though it may be. But we all have mistakes in our knowledge, none of us are perfect, you didn't know about the verses concerning the execution of disobedient children, but don't get me wrong, I don't think that says anything about how strong your faith is!

I have studied the Bible and accepted its words, earlier in my life. I've since then departed from that faith and now I have no religious beliefs. I still love and follow the teachings of Jesus even though I do not believe he was divine. Things like love your neighbor/enemy/everybody. Anyways I just wanted to clear a few things up. Since we've had a few miscommunications. :)
 
Last edited:
J

juliet84

Guest
#49
Actually I knew Romans was New Testament. I was referring to Leviticus when I said Old Testament, which is the most popular and well known place in the Bible referencing homosexuality. And I'm not sure that the second thing you mentioned is a mistake, though it may be. But we all have mistakes in our knowledge, none of us are perfect, you didn't know about the verses concerning the execution of disobedient children, but don't get me wrong, I don't think that says anything about how strong your faith is!

I have studied the Bible and accepted its words, earlier in my life. I've since then departed from that faith and now I have no religious beliefs. I still love and follow the teachings of Jesus even though I do not believe he was divine. Things like love your neighbor/enemy/everybody. Anyways I just wanted to clear a few things up. Since we've had a few miscommunications. :)
I never mention anything about whether my faith is strong, I said we have different faith (meaning Im a Christian and you are not)..When I was asking for verses, I'd like to see evidence and not giving out false information. Study Romans again if you are not sure.
 
Feb 24, 2011
621
7
0
#50
Our views are different because we both have a different faith. (As I can see in your profile that you are not a Christian). However, I'd like to ask you not to give out false information about the Bible. You already made two mistakes here about Romans. (as you thought it is in Old Testament, and you think its about written about pagans and cult rituals) Have you actually read and studied it deeply? Scriptures say God's Words are hard to be accepted to some people. And I understand why the words in the Bible are hard for you and some others to accept. Scriptures also say that "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy" (Revelation : 22:11)
Actually many biblical and literary scholars believe Paul was referencing pagan rituals when he wrote Romans. She isn't wrong.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#51
I go to a liberal arts university in the South, have a gay brother and I'm close with his boyfriend, and I have several other gay friends. I think I know what I'm talking about.
So you have opinion and subjective experience.
 
J

juliet84

Guest
#52
Actually many biblical and literary scholars believe Paul was referencing pagan rituals when he wrote Romans. She isn't wrong.
I challenge ypu to give me a list of references to support your statement.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#53
I see several errors that need corrected, among many more.

I will only address a few.

1) Using OT laws to justify condemnation of an act (morally speaking) requires adhering to other OT laws we don't today.
2) Morality by subjectivity
3) Paul and Romans
4) Born X = X is permissible


1) Using OT laws to condemn homosexuality requires following dietary laws, clothing laws, and such.

The Old Testament laws are categorized in three groups: the civil, the priestly, and the moral. The civil laws must be understood in the context of a theocracy. Though the Jewish nation in the Old Testament was often headed by a king, it was a theocratic system with the Scriptures as a guide to the nation. Those laws that fall under this category are not applicable today because we are not under a theocracy.

The priestly laws dealing with the Levitical and Aaronic priesthoods were representative of the future and true High Priest Jesus, who offered Himself as a sacrifice on the cross. Since Jesus fulfilled the priestly laws, they are no longer necessary to be followed and are not now applicable.

The moral laws, on the other hand, are not abolished, because the moral laws are based upon the character of God. Since God's holy character does not change, the moral laws do not change either. Therefore, the moral laws are still in effect.

In the New Testament we do not see a reestablishment of the civil or priestly laws. But we do see a reestablishment of the moral law. This is why we see New Testament condemnation of homosexuality as a sin but not with the associated death penalty.

Christianity and Homosexuality | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click for more
Matthew 5:17 said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
2) Morality by Subjectivity

In order to be able to morally condemn something, we require that moral acts be morally right or wrong, regardless of how many people agree/disagree. This is known as Objective morality. So before homosexuality can be condemned, it must be condemned in conjunction with the moral law. Just as condemning the condemner must be in conjunction with the moral law. Opinions, do not make moral facts. We can not even begin to ask questions of morality, without an Objective moral system. It my be your opinion that homosexuality or anything else for that matter, is morally right or wrong, but it doesn't matter as it would be subjective. That is to say, that there must actually BE a right way and a wrong way, before we can even ask the question of which way is right or wrong.



YouTube - Dr. Ravi Zacharias Question and Answer - Moral Law and Giver <--- click for a bit of an explaination of a Moral law


2) The Apostle Paul and Romans

Stand To Reason said:
Let me start by making two observations. First, this is about God being mad: "For the wrath of God [orge</EM>] is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men...."

Second, there is a specific progression that leads to this "orgy" of anger. Men "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (v. 18). They exchanged "the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (v. 25). Next, "God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity..." (v. 24). They "exchanged the natural [sexual] function for that which is unnatural (v. 26). Therefore, the wrath of God rightly falls on them (v. 18); they are without excuse (v. 20).

This text is a crystal clear condemnation of homosexuality by the Apostle Paul in the middle of his most brilliant discourse on general revelation. Paul is not speaking to a localized aberration of pedophilia or temple prostitution that's part of life in the capital of Graeco-Roman culture. He is talking about a universal condition of man.
Regarding the same-sex behavior itself, here are the specific words Paul uses: a lust of the heart, an impurity and dishonoring to the body (v. 24); a degrading passion that's unnatural (v. 29); an indecent act and an error (v. 27); not proper and the product of a depraved mind (v. 28).

There's only one way the clear sense of this passage can be missed: if someone is in total revolt against God. According to Paul, homosexual behavior is evidence of active, persistent rebellion against one's Creator. Verse 32 shows it's rooted in direct, willful, aggressive sedition against God--true of all so-called Christians who are defending their own homosexuality. God's response is explicit: "They are without excuse" (v. 20).

(skipping to important parts)

Born Gay

What if one's "natural" desire is for the same sex, though. What if his homosexuality is part of his physical constitution? There are four different reasons this is a bad argument. The first three are compelling; the fourth is unassailable.

First, this rejoinder assumes there is such a thing as innate homosexuality. The scientific data is far from conclusive, though. Contrary to the hasty claims of the press, there is no definitive evidence that homosexuality is determined by physiological factors (see "Just Doing What Comes Naturally," Clear Thinking</EM>, Spring, 1997).
There's a second problem. If all who have a desire for the same sex do so "naturally," then to whom does this verse apply? If everybody is only following their natural sexual desires, then which particular individuals fall under this ban, those who are not aroused by their own gender, but have sex anyway? Generally, for men at least, if there is no arousal, there is no sex. And if there is arousal, according to Boswell et al, then the passion must be natural.

Third, this interpretation introduces a whole new concept--constitutional homosexuality--that is entirely foreign to the text. Boswell himself admits that it was "in fact unlikely that many Jews of [Paul's] day recognized such a distinction," and that possibly even Paul himself was in the dark.

If Paul did not understand genuine homosexuality, though, then how can one say he excepted constitutional homosexuals when he wrote that they "exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural"? This argument self-destructs.

Further, if Paul spoke only to those violating their personal sexual orientation, then wouldn't he also warn that some men burned unnaturally towards women, and some women towards men? Wouldn't Paul warn against both types of violation--heterosexuals committing indecent acts with members of the same sex, and homosexuals committing indecent acts with members of the opposite sex?

What in the text allows us to distinguish between constitutional homosexuals and others? Only one word: "natural." A close look at this word and what it modifies, though, leads to the most devastating critique of all.

Natural Desire or Natural Function?

Paul was not unclear about what he meant by "natural." Homosexuals do not abandon natural desires; they abandon natural functions: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function</EM> for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function</EM> of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another..." (1:26-27)

The Greek word kreesis, </EM>translated "function" in this text, is used only these two times in the New Testament, but is found frequently in other literature of the time. According to the standard Greek language reference A Greek/English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature</EM>,[4] the word means "use, relations, function, especially of sexual intercourse."

Paul is not talking about natural desires here, but natural functions. He is not talking about what one wants sexually, but how one is built to operate sexually. The body is built to function in a specific way. Men were not built to function sexually with men, but with women.....

Stand to Reason: Paul, Romans, & Homosexuality <--- click for more
Bit of a Copy-Pasta job, I understand and apologize but I've got to head off somewhere for the next few hours here shortly, and wanted to address these issues before I forgot.




On the Born X = X is permissible issue, there are two ways to evaluate this. First would be in comparison to the moral law. Second, if a person is born a serial killer, does that make it morally permissible?
 
Last edited:
Apr 24, 2011
184
2
0
31
#54
On the Born X = X is permissible issue, there are two ways to evaluate this. First would be in comparison to the moral law. Second, if a person is born a serial killer, does that make it morally permissible?
Please don't compare homosexuals to serial killers, that's completely unfair... Serial killers are murderers, they forcefully and violently take the lives of other people, but nothing about homosexuality harms anyone. I don't think anyone would be appreciate being seen akin to serial killers when they've never hurt anyone, I'd even say they'd be hurt. :(

But I think we're getting too caught up in arguing over whose interpretation of the Bible is more correct in this case, it's obviously a very debatable issue. No one says that people who get tattoos have committed an evil sin, why can't everyone have the same attitude for homosexuality? Neither tattoos nor homosexuality are hurting anyone, so why can't everyone just be satisfied to not judge them, and leave that to their god? All I am encouraging is that people don't call homosexuals evil or sinful or wrong, because of the reasons I've thoroughly explained earlier in this thread. Really, that's all I want.
 
P

physicist

Guest
#55
Ok before i say anything I know I'm young and people will probably not read this post because of that but what i want to say I think needs to be said.

First I have alot of friends who are gay and bi. I go to an all boy school and two of my best friends came out the closet about a week ago. A couple of them go to my church, they have told me how scared they are to tell anyone for fear of being ostracized and bullied.Because of that I wear two wrist bands that are against bullying gay or bi people.

I think that we as Christians need to stop condemning gay people and telling them they will go to hell. Instead of blatant confrontation or criticism we should show them the right path. I know many Christians just are trying to save people and help them get to heaven but scaring them doesnt work. We should try and show gay and bi people that God still loves them and won't hatefully throw them into a fiery pit because they are gay.

We all know that God is love but the way that some people make him out to be is not just just or strict but cruel, which is totally off base. But on the other hand there are the people who believe that God is some kind of push over and will forgive us automatically of our sins because he is love and because Jesus died. Both of these standpoints are very wrong. One over emphasizes God's law and punishment, and the other over emphasizes his love. God is a compassionate God to those who know him and sincerely want to be forgiven. he does not automatically send people to hell for one sin or mistake. He wants us to repent and sin no more and through Jesus we can do that without having to experience God's wrath or judgment. he also does not forgive every sin we commit automatically, he is a forgiving God but we must first repent and really want to not sin anymore. I just wanted to clarify that for all the people who seem a bit confused about that in this thread.

But back to the original problem, I am not saying that being gay or bi is ok or that is not a sin or that you can be born that way. I believe it is a trick of the devil to get humans to fall. When I talk to one of my gay or bi friends i don't try and tell them they are bad people, or that God will love them no matter what and they will go right to heaven. I feel sorry for them because Satan has confused them and made them turn away from God's word.

The bible says that God created us in his image, and since God says that homosexuality is wrong there should be no way you can say people can be born gay. Its illogical, if God gives homosexuality such a harsh punishment and speaks against it throughout the old and the new testament there should be no argument here if you call yourself a christian.

Lastly i want to say that yes it is a sin, and that sin separates us from God. it causes us to not know him and reject him. That is basically what is going on here since people don't want to accept his word for what it is. And God said that if you reject me on Earth, I will reject you in front of my father.

I hope someone reads this and I hope it helps clarify things God Bless, and much love.
 
Feb 24, 2011
621
7
0
#56
So you have opinion and subjective experience.
When I have people who are gay that have attempted or contemplated suicide, yes, I'm more qualified to say something on this topic than you. If I had said "no, religious leaders aren't any of the cause, and I know, I have gay friends." You would applaud me and say "you're right, and you would know." Don't bring your biased garbage into this discussion when I doubt you've ever even spoken to a gay person.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#57
Please don't compare homosexuals to serial killers, that's completely unfair...
Only using the line of reasoning offered to me as justification for an act. Just checking for consistancy, and I see no consistancy with this line of arguementation. I suggest to remain credible, rescind it.

Serial killers are murderers, they forcefully and violently take the lives of other people
Murder as moral underpinnings. How can you condemn something as immoral, while not having an Ojbective moral law? It's all just an opinion.

How do you condemn a serial killer, a rapist, or anyone else that is born with a tendency to cause physical pain, in light of the "born x = x is permissible" arguement? Do you stack up arguements to counter-balance? Do you say it "doesn't count?"


but nothing about homosexuality harms anyone.
Nothing about it?
A new analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) shows that the rate of new HIV and syphilis diagnoses among homosexual and bisexual men is over 44 times higher than the rate among other men, and more than 40 times higher than the rate among women. The CDC estimates that men who have sex with men (MSM) account for about 4.0 percent of the overall U.S. male population (range: 2.8-5.3 percent).

According to the new CDC data released March 10 at the 2010 National STD Prevention Conference:
There are 522 to 989 cases of HIV per 100,000 MSM, compared to 12 cases per 100,000 other men, and 13 cases per 100,000 women. The primary and secondary syphilis rate among MSM is over 46 times higher than the rate among other men, and over 71 times higher than among women. For example, the CDC data shows that the range was 91-173 cases of syphilis per 100,000 MSM, compared to two cases per 100,000 other men, and one case per 100,000 women.
STD Rate Much Higher For Homosexual Men <--- click
However, again as I stated in my previous post you have to have an objective moral law to be able to morally condemn something. Without an objective moral law, you can not use harm as a basis for condeming an action.


I don't think anyone would be appreciate being seen akin to serial killers when they've never hurt anyone, I'd even say they'd be hurt. :(
I don't know too many people who haven't hurt someone, physically and emotionally. You're attempting to make a moral condemnation of harm. Yet, a moral law is required to be able to condemn something, let alone even ask questions of morality.


But I think we're getting too caught up in arguing over whose interpretation of the Bible is more correct in this case, it's obviously a very debatable issue.
1) This implies relative truth.
2) The only debate that occurs, is that which is created by man to justify his own sinful nature.


No one says that people who get tattoos have committed an evil sin, why can't everyone have the same attitude for homosexuality?
This is a matter of theology. I quoted a page on it in the previous post of mine. I will however say that for those living under leviticus, it would have been sin.


Neither tattoos nor homosexuality are hurting anyone,
This is an attempt at a moral arguement, I've commented in this post on why an objective moral law is required.

so why can't everyone just be satisfied to not judge them, and leave that to their god?
This is a moral arguement as well. A subtle moral condemnation.

John 7 said:
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.&#8221;
All I am encouraging is that people don't call homosexuals evil or sinful or wrong, because of the reasons I've thoroughly explained earlier in this thread. Really, that's all I want.
If the bible says something is morally wrong, we must view it as such. If the bible says action Y is sinful and evil, we must.


John Piper said:
1) The Bible sets up at the beginning that a man and a woman become one flesh. That's God's way of doing sexuality.
Sexuality is God's idea, and we should learn from God what it is. It's a man and a woman created in beautifully complementary ways so that they form one flesh. And to try to do it another way is a distortion. It's a corruption. It's a dysfunction of the way God made it.

Why is homosexuality wrong? - Desiring God <--- click
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#58
When I have people who are gay that have attempted or contemplated suicide, yes, I'm more qualified to say something on this topic than you.
So all gay people who kill themselves do so because a pastor said so? I don't recall denying that it can or does happen. I'm asking for FACTS. However, again, you cite subjective experience. Subjective experience is not by neccesity grounded in fact.

If I had said "no, religious leaders aren't any of the cause, and I know, I have gay friends."
1) No I would not have, I would have objected. I was not objecting to religious leaders contributing, but your claim that they are a "Major" factor. The WBC would be an example I would have used.
2)Be careful with accusations such as this.

1 Peter 2:1-3 said:
1 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.


You would applaud me and say "you're right, and you would know."
No, see previous commentary.


Don't bring your biased garbage into this discussion when I doubt you've ever even spoken to a gay person.
1) You're free of bias? Let alone garbage....
2)Maybe emotions should be left at the door, and we could stick with discovering biblical truth.
3)I don't ask you to believe me when you read this, as it is subjective. I will only mention one incident, as I'm sure the others aren't significant enough to truely count. One of my better and closer friends is a homosexual male, and infact he has informed me that he is on the receiving end. When he came out there wasn't any condemnation that I heard of from others. I never brought up the issue with him, as I didn't care. When he came out to me, I had a simple response.... Can you guess it? "Oh Well"; to which one of his female friends said, "see, I told you..."

I have not informed him that God views homosexuality as sinful, nor does he even know of my theism. I championed for quite sometime as being against theism. I was rather supportive of homosexual causes. Now that I have accepted theism in the last year or so, I have come to a different position. I am not vocal on this issue. I don't run around telling people "that's a sin!"

All I care about is prevention of perversion of the word of God, and preserving biblical truth.



Would you rather me be a pro-homosexual atheist, or an anti-homosexual theist who persues the God of the bible?
 
Apr 24, 2011
184
2
0
31
#59
@ JimmyDiggs

Almost everything you've said bases on the assumption that there has to be an absolute moral standard, and that standard has to be the one established by the Bible. Well it's debatable Biblically, not a black and white issue, but on top of that no absolute objective moral standard IS needed. We can condemn murder and rape because of the way they violate and harm other people. No one wants to be raped or murdered, humans share this in common, so we establish our laws and rules based on that, for the good of everyone. You can say it's just an opinion I have, but it's also an opinion 99.999% of humanity has as well. So in the end it doesn't matter what it technically is, we're still protecting ourselves and those around us from harm. And beyond all of this you haven't provided a legitimate explanation as to why tattoos are morally acceptable but homosexuality is not.

Your claim that homosexuality harms people is more of an argument that not practicing sex safely and carefully harms people. It's also flawed in the sense that only the consenting adult participants are ever harmed, never others, and when it does harm them it's because of them not being careful or safe, or just being horridly unlucky, not because they're homosexual. The same thing applies to heterosexual relationships as well... You're not proving that homosexuality is harmful.


Would you rather me be a pro-homosexual atheist, or an anti-homosexual theist who persues the God of the bible?
I'd rather you choose, but atheist or theist, neither is inherently more moral than the other. So I only see pro-homosexual and anti-homosexual, I don't see anything else. And I would prefer that people aren't anti-homosexual so... Just my personal opinion.

I've already expressed everything I want to express here... The only things left I could converse about are about the validity of the Bible and which interpretations are legitimate, and I simply don't wish to go there again/at all.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#60
@ JimmyDiggs

Almost everything you've said bases on the assumption that there has to be an absolute moral standard,
If we want to condemn something morally, we have to have a moral standard. I'm not asking for an absolute standard, but rather Objective Morality. Below is a quotation defining Absolute/Objective morality.

  • Moral absolutism: There is at least one principle that ought never to be violated.
  • Moral objectivism: There is a fact of the matter as to whether any given action is morally permissible or impermissible: a fact of the matter that does not depend solely on social custom or individual acceptance.
Pojman, L. P. : A Defense of Ethical Objectivism (p. 50)
In order to defeat Moral Objectiveism/Absolutism you have to deny that Moral Facts exist.


and that standard has to be the one established by the Bible.
Only by proxy would it have to be. This would be apart of the Epistemiology of Morality, how do we come to know what the moral facts are? What I'm trying to explain to you is the Ontology of Morality, or in English "What is the nature of Morality? Is morality a fact or an opinion?" In order to say that morality exists as a fact, we posit a source for these moral facts/laws. This source must have personhood as personhood is intrinsic to the question. Moral questions are always asked by a person of a person.

YouTube - Can there be Objective Morality outside of God? <--- click



Well it's debatable Biblically, not a black and white issue,
Philosophically speaking and biblically speaking it isn't debatable. If you reject a God you reject Moral Facts by proxy. So the only debate revolves around whether moral facts exist or not. The bible deals with Moral Absolutes and Moral Objectivism.

but on top of that no absolute objective moral standard IS needed.
Yes, a moral standard is needed. Otherwise all we have in the realm of morality is a collection of subjective opinions that ultimately are not able to condemn an act. "Well, I think rape is wrong..." Without Moral Objectivism we end at Moral Subjectivism. "What is morally wrong for me, may not be for you."

FSUBoy can philosophically condemn my condemning of homosexuality as a sinful act, but then for he and I it becomes a debate on Epistimiology, or, "What does the bible say?"


We can condemn murder and rape because of the way they violate and harm other people.
Who is condemning the murdering and the raping, us? Are we the ones constructing the moral system? Credo_Ut_Intelligam is a user here and I recall a post of his stating, "Secular ethics is an ever-changing position based upon the whims of the people." That would be an excellent definition for Subjective ethics. You can argue the Epistimiology all you want, but if you do not have a basis upon which to frame the question, you can't ultimately answer the question.

No one wants to be raped or murdered,
So what if no one wants to be raped or murdered? That's the very definition of subjective. It is we who do not like this, but that doesn't make it any more or less moral. It's assigned by us, and ultimately is a boat with no hull.

humans share this in common, so we establish our laws and rules based on that, for the good of everyone.
So what if humans agree on a moral issue. That doesn't make it any more or less moral than when they disagree if you do not have an Objective basis upon which to frame these types of questions. If 99% of the world agreed that rape, murder, and torture were morally neccesitated and were pretty awesome activities to take part in, especially in groups of three to five, does that make it moral? Humans would share it in common. They would establish their laws and rules based on that. For the perceived good of everyone. By the way, who defines good? Do humans define good?

20100326.gif
What if the following chart were reversed? Would that make anything in it less moral?

1011religion.jpg


You can say it's just an opinion I have, but it's also an opinion 99.999% of humanity has as well.
So if 99.999% of humanity agrees, that rape,murder, and torture are morally neccesitated, does that make it so? Agreeance on an issue doesn't make it a fact. Otherwise, you're on the loosing team hun.

The majority of the world agrees Theism is true, therefor you can't be true. The Majority of the world agrees that Christianity is true, therefor it must be true.


So in the end it doesn't matter what it technically is, we're still protecting ourselves and those around us from harm.
What does it matter whether something is harmful or not, this doesn't make it morally right or wrong. Especially in the ontological sense. You deny the existance of a God (based on your profile and things you've posted) yet try to borrow the idea that something is morally preferable, which comes from atleast a strong deism or a weak theism.

And beyond all of this you haven't provided a legitimate explanation as to why tattoos are morally acceptable but homosexuality is not.
I did, but maybe I did not point it out as such. The below quotation should help.

CARM said:
1) If you want to say homosexuality is wrong based on the O.T. laws, then you must still uphold all of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

The Old Testament laws are categorized in three groups: the civil, the priestly, and the moral. The civil laws must be understood in the context of a theocracy. Though the Jewish nation in the Old Testament was often headed by a king, it was a theocratic system with the Scriptures as a guide to the nation. Those laws that fall under this category are not applicable today because we are not under a theocracy.

The priestly laws dealing with the Levitical and Aaronic priesthoods were representative of the future and true High Priest Jesus, who offered Himself as a sacrifice on the cross. Since Jesus fulfilled the priestly laws, they are no longer necessary to be followed and are not now applicable.

The moral laws, on the other hand, are not abolished, because the moral laws are based upon the character of God. Since God's holy character does not change, the moral laws do not change either. Therefore, the moral laws are still in effect.

In the New Testament we do not see a reestablishment of the civil or priestly laws. But we do see a reestablishment of the moral law. This is why we see New Testament condemnation of homosexuality as a sin but not with the associated death penalty.
Christianity and Homosexuality | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click
Point to a verse in the new testament that re-establishes a condemnation of tattoos. I have never been able to find one.

CARM said:
The point is that we are free and because of our sanctification in Christ what we touch becomes sanctified. The meat sacrificed to idols does not hurt the Christian when the Christian consumes it. If it were a sin to buy and consume such meat, Paul would have said so. Likewise, if tattooing is to be considered a sinful act because of its connection with the pagans of the Old Testament, and thereby we are not have anything to do with it, why did not Paul carry over the same logic to the issue of meat openly sacrificed to idols?
Is it okay for a Christian to get a tattoo? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <---- click

Your claim that homosexuality harms people is more of an argument that not practicing sex safely and carefully harms people. It's also flawed in the sense that only the consenting adult participants are ever harmed, never others, and when it does harm them it's because of them not being careful or safe, or just being horridly unlucky, not because they're homosexual. The same thing applies to heterosexual relationships as well... You're not proving that homosexuality is harmful.[/qoute]
I was not attempting to argue that homosexuality is inherently harmful. This goes back to the earlier comments I have made about harm, to which I await your response.

but nothing about homosexuality harms anyone
You said nothing about homosexuality harms anyone. To which I have shown otherwise. If you, however, want to know whether homosexuality is inherently harmful, biblically speaking all sin is harmful, to others and self. Let alone to God.

YouTube - Acceptance of Homosexuality in Christianity-Ravi Zacharias Answers Question:settled! <--- click







I'd rather you choose, but atheist or theist, neither is inherently more moral than the other.
Philosophically, if atheism is the case, then nothing is moral or immoral. If Theism is true, then yes, there are things that are less moral.



So I only see pro-homosexual and anti-homosexual, I don't see anything else. And I would prefer that people aren't anti-homosexual so... Just my personal opinion.
If I am to remain biblical, I must reject homosexuality as perfectly permissible. Sexual activity that violates the Marriage Covenent is sacriligious.

I've already expressed everything I want to express here... The only things left I could converse about are about the validity of the Bible and which interpretations are legitimate, and I simply don't wish to go there again/at all.
It probably would be better to stay out of that part of the issue.