Daniel 9:27 blunder...

[Bistabuster]

please explain what the DOR or the Israeli State or Jerusalem which now is has to do with Christians.
t.y.

I already have in other post in other threads. Why repeat to you again when you didn't listen to the explanation the first time around. It makes sense to me. Islam is definitely the Devils religion. If you take the time to study what Islam is in its fullest, you will see the dangers it poses on the Christian believers. In a nutshell, Islam wants to rid the world of people like you and me. Is that itself enough to say that that is an abomination towards God? It is to me. Sorry if you don't like it.

 

[zone]

I already have in other post in other threads. Why repeat to you again when you didn't listen to the explanation the firdt time around. It makes sense to me. Islam is definitely the Devils religion. If you take the time to study what Islam is in its fullest, you will see the dangers it poses on the Christian believers. In a nutshell, Islam wants to rid the world of people like you and me. Is that itself enough to say that that is an abomination towards God? It is to me. Sorry if you don't like it.

ya...i don't want to hear it again.
it's not in Daniel, so...
bye then.

 

[Bistabuster]

what are ya talkin' about.
i don't do the DOR , okay?

you can make it the AOD if you want to.

Daniel is FULL of accounts of both the jews and the gentiles committing abominations and making the city the land and the temple defiled.

it's fulfilled. done. over.

Herod was the king who did as he willed and didn't honor the God of his fathers, nor any other gods.

Titus demolished the city.

OVER.

if those 70 weeks aren't fulfilled, not one of us is a Christian and we are to be MOST PITIED ABOVE ALL PEOPLE.

Yes, it is fulfilled but not at 70 AD!

If you don't like the Dome of the Rock, then stop asking me to explain it!! That sounds simple. If you truly want to know, We'll discuss it in full detail. If not, then just ignore it.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

What if after Jesus died the temple and sacrifices became the abomination due to unbelief?

this comes from a quick search for the word 'abomination' on biblegateway...

outside of proverbs where a whole bunch of things are referred to as abominations...it is apparent that the term usually refers to just a couple of things in particular...namely idols and their accompanying rituals...and to a lesser degree sexual immorality...

the abomination of antiochus iv was the statue of zeus that he set up in the temple...and the way he sacrificed pigs to it...

the abomination that jesus was warning about probably also had something to do with idolatry or uncleanness in the temple... one possibility is when titus had the roman standards set up on the temple mount after the fall of jerusalem...the roman standards featured pagan gods... another possibility is an incident where during the siege of jerusalem there was a battle inside the city between john of gischala and eleazar son of simon that resulted in the deaths of many of the priests who were in the temple offering sacrifices...the priests' bodies were laying in the temple and their blood pooled on the floors and mixed with the blood of the sacrifices they were offering...the jewish historian josephus felt that after that incident jerusalem was no longer fit to be a place for God...

 

[Bistabuster]

this comes from a quick search for the word 'abomination' on biblegateway...

outside of proverbs where a whole bunch of things are referred to as abominations...it is apparent that the term usually refers to just a couple of things in particular...namely idols and their accompanying rituals...and to a lesser degree sexual immorality...

the abomination of antiochus iv was the statue of zeus that he set up in the temple...and the way he sacrificed pigs to it...

the abomination that jesus was warning about probably also had something to do with idolatry or uncleanness in the temple... one possibility is when titus had the roman standards set up on the temple mount after the fall of jerusalem...the roman standards featured pagan gods... another possibility is an incident where during the siege of jerusalem there was a battle inside the city between john of gischala and eleazar son of simon that resulted in the deaths of many of the priests who were in the temple offering sacrifices...the priests' bodies were laying in the temple and their blood pooled on the floors and mixed with the blood of the sacrifices they were offering...the jewish historian josephus felt that after that incident jerusalem was no longer fit to be a place for God...

Is that definite or are you supposing this is what it is? Not meant to be rude. Just verifying if you are saying this is what it is or not.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Is that definite or are you supposing this is what it is? Not meant to be rude. Just verifying if you are saying this is what it is or not.

those are the two main possibilities involving idolatry or uncleanness in the temple...

 

[Bistabuster]

those are the two main possibilities involving idolatry or uncleanness in the temple...

Thanks for the response. I'll get back with you later. I'm off to work! Have a great day!

 

[GRA]

Katy, honey - there is no 'prince' in verse 27. This is the mistake people make - thinking that 'he' refers back to the word 'prince' in verse 26. And, even in verse 26 - 'prince' is not the subject of the clausal statement after the colon -- 'people' is the subject; 'prince' is part of a prepositional phrase which helps to define 'people'. So then, because 'prince' is not the subject of the clause - and is only "prepositional" - it IS NOT a valid target for the word 'he' in verse 27.

Understand?

'What does it say?' before 'What does it mean?' <----- Click

Please understand the context...

This was specifically about the word 'prince' in verse 26 and its particular meaning and identification -- which is not represented in verse 27.

 

[GRA]

ok so i thought i would look up the 'abomination of desolation' passages in the king james version...

since the king james version predates the whole dispensationalist controversy...it would be free from that bias...and it would probably give the most 'natural' translation of the hebrew text...

here are the three relevant verses from daniel...

daniel 9:27..."And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

daniel 11:31..."And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

daniel 12:11..."And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

comparing the three passages...it seems that daniel 9:27 is not talking about the same thing as daniel 11:31 and daniel 12:11...

my previous post in this thread relates to that...

'abomination that causes desolation' does not appear to be the most natural translation of the hebrew text in daniel 9:27...the more natural translation would be something like 'for the overspreading of abominations he will make it desolate'

so when jesus mentions the 'abomination that causes desolation' he is probably referring only to daniel 11:31 and daniel 12:11...not daniel 9:27 which is evidently about something else entirely...

"I just knew there was a reason why I like the King James Version!"

 

[Bistabuster]

ya...i don't want to hear it again.
it's not in Daniel, so...
bye then.

Actually it is and I will honor your wish. I won't tell you what it is since you specifically told me you don't want to hear about it.

It doesn't stop me from telling other people who want to know though!

 

[Bistabuster]

"I just knew there was a reason why I like the King James Version!"

Dan 9:27 is the same as the other two in Daniel. The problem is that people try to make Scripture what they want it to be (no offense). In this case, I asked my Pastor this question. When you read Matt 24:15 and it says go to Daniel to find out WHAT it is, my Pastor boldly went right away to Dan 9:27! I told him "Wrong!!" Let's be honest here. Dan 9:27 does not say WHAT it is. If anybody says it does, they're lying! All 9:27 tells us is WHERE it is. That's it. IF, and I do stress IF (not saying it is. Just using this as an example) 70 AD is the abomination of desolation, then, without question, the middle of Dan 9:27 will be 70 AD. Somehow equal time must be on both sides of 70 AD.

So, yes. Dan 9:27 will tell you where it is in history if you correctly identify it. If it is yet to come, how do you know if this tribulation really hasn't started yet. You don't. The only way to understand this 70th week (which is also identified as a time of trouble found in Dan 12) is to have it completely be finished.

One thing I haven't heard much of is that the 70 weeks AND the time of trouble are addressed ONLY to the Jews. Why? Because the Bible says in the very first sentence in Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....." Same goes for Dan 12:1 "standeth for the children of thy people:..." Who are thy people? The Christians? How about the believers only? Could it be the non believers? How about none of the above. It is for the Jews only! Instead of using thy people, use your people. Who is your people? Your people is referring to Daniel who is a Jew for that is who this message was given too. The Gentile peoples are not involved in this.

 

[peterT]

Dan 9:27 is the same as the other two in Daniel. The problem is that people try to make Scripture what they want it to be (no offense). In this case, I asked my Pastor this question. When you read Matt 24:15 and it says go to Daniel to find out WHAT it is, my Pastor boldly went right away to Dan 9:27! I told him "Wrong!!" Let's be honest here. Dan 9:27 does not say WHAT it is. If anybody says it does, they're lying! All 9:27 tells us is WHERE it is. That's it. IF, and I do stress IF (not saying it is. Just using this as an example) 70 AD is the abomination of desolation, then, without question, the middle of Dan 9:27 will be 70 AD. Somehow equal time must be on both sides of 70 AD.

So, yes. Dan 9:27 will tell you where it is in history if you correctly identify it. If it is yet to come, how do you know if this tribulation really hasn't started yet. You don't. The only way to understand this 70th week (which is also identified as a time of trouble found in Dan 12) is to have it completely be finished.

One thing I haven't heard much of is that the 70 weeks AND the time of trouble are addressed ONLY to the Jews. Why? Because the Bible says in the very first sentence in Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....." Same goes for Dan 12:1 "standeth for the children of thy people:..." Who are thy people? The Christians? How about the believers only? Could it be the non believers? How about none of the above. It is for the Jews only! Instead of using thy people, use your people. Who is your people? Your people is referring to Daniel who is a Jew for that is who this message was given too. The Gentile peoples are not involved in this.

Where did you get that from brother Ellie scoffers website?

Just wondering

 

[GRA]

Dan 9:27 is the same as the other two in Daniel.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ~ Daniel 9:27

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. ~ Daniel 11:31

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. ~ Daniel 12:11

Let's see...

For the verses in Daniel 11 & 12:

'the abomination' (singular) that [ itself ] "maketh desolate"

For the verse in Daniel 9:

"because of the 'proliferation and extent' of abominations" (plural) - 'he' ( Christ [ or, a person - and not the abomination itself ] ) - shall make [it] desolate

I do not believe that Daniel 9:27 is identically the same as the other two. I believe it is more probable that the abomination spoken of in Daniel 11 & 12 is one of the abominations spoken of in Daniel 9. I think Daniel 9 is "looking at a bigger picture" in this regard.

Consider the idea that God had the temple destroyed so the Jews would not "unwittingly" continue to commit abominations in the form of making sacrifices in the [physical] temple after Christ's resurrection. Since He was the "one-time sufficient sacrifice" -- and, since God afterward "made His abode" in "a temple not made with hands" - a spiritual temple by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers -- sacrifices made [to God] in the [physical] temple would be abominations in of themselves.

I believe that "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in Daniel 9:27 is speaking of the moment Christ died and the veil was rent:

And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. ~ Mark 15:38

The other two verses, of course, are speaking of that same "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 -- which I personally believe had to have occurred some time just before 70 A.D.

I believe that the desolation spoken of in Daniel 9:27 does most certainly apply to the events circa 70 A.D.

The phrase "even until the consummation" tells me that there will not be another temple built before the Second Coming of Christ.

( Enough for now -- I got to get to bed sometime... )

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I awoke this morning to the smell of roasting brain cells.

Zone is correct that it was all fulfilled back there on first century Jerusalem, ya know.

I might dispute a tad of her details but certainly not that.

It had to be fulfilled on the shadow else the shadow would not have been complete for us.

And this is not some movie theme I'm pushing such as in, "Only the shadow knows."

But in this case it happens to be true.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

In the modern world which is as the Israel of Revelation 7, Christendom compares to first century Jerusalem.

That all was but the shadow of this larger event to come.

As I pointed out to someone else: The word, "religion", means "ceremonial observance". Look it up.

That is what Jesus scolded the Pharisees for.

We must break free of the arguments caused by insistence upon ceremony and worship through love like as Christ.

 

[zone]

Actually it is and I will honor your wish. I won't tell you what it is since you specifically told me you don't want to hear about it.

It doesn't stop me from telling other people who want to know though!

okay...and i'll counter it whenever i feel led to.
deal.

 

[zone]

Where did you get that from brother Ellie scoffers website?

Just wondering

the big DOR distraction game.
LOL

 

[kardiaoangelous]

It was those that had difficulty letting go of Judaism that argued about which was the correct religion.

James counseled them as if to say, "Since you insist upon religion, well then, James 1:26-27 "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Religion is on earth of man. The true worship of God is, Hebrews 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.."

 

[zone]

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ~ Daniel 9:27

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. ~ Daniel 11:31

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. ~ Daniel 12:11

Let's see...

For the verses in Daniel 11 & 12:

'the abomination' (singular) that [ itself ] "maketh desolate"

For the verse in Daniel 9:

"because of the 'proliferation and extent' of abominations" (plural) - 'he' ( Christ [ or, a person - and not the abomination itself ] ) - shall make [it] desolate

I do not believe that Daniel 9:27 is identically the same as the other two. I believe it is more probable that the abomination spoken of in Daniel 11 & 12 is one of the abominations spoken of in Daniel 9. I think Daniel 9 is "looking at a bigger picture" in this regard.

Consider the idea that God had the temple destroyed so the Jews would not "unwittingly" continue to commit abominations in the form of making sacrifices in the [physical] temple after Christ's resurrection. Since He was the "one-time sufficient sacrifice" -- and, since God afterward "made His abode" in "a temple not made with hands" - a spiritual temple by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers -- sacrifices made [to God] in the [physical] temple would be abominations in of themselves.

I believe that "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in Daniel 9:27 is speaking of the moment Christ died and the veil was rent:

And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. ~ Mark 15:38

The other two verses, of course, are speaking of that same "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 -- which I personally believe had to have occurred some time just before 70 A.D.

I believe that the desolation spoken of in Daniel 9:27 does most certainly apply to the events circa 70 A.D.

The phrase "even until the consummation" tells me that there will not be another temple built before the Second Coming of Christ.

( Enough for now -- I got to get to bed sometime... )

King Herod built the three heavily fortified towers of the citadel upon a location that was already a very fortified position since the days of Solomon. Jerusalem's citadel was the highest point of the city about 2500 feet above sea level. Herod built the citadel and towers to protect the western side of the city of Jerusalem and his marvelous palace. These were fantastic towers, the largest was the Phasael Tower but the most beautiful was his Mariamne Tower.

The Phasael Tower
1. Phasael Tower (the largest, named after his brother stood 145 feet high).

The Hippicus Tower
2. Hippicus Tower (named after a friend, and was 132 feet high)

The Mariamme Tower
3. Mariamme Tower (named after his beloved Hasmonean wife whom he had murdered. Josephus said "the king considering it appropriate that the tower named after a woman should surpass in decoration those called after men." It stood 74 feet high).

When Titus destroyed most of Jerusalem in 70 AD., he spared Herod's fortress.

Nothing remains of Herod's three towers and a Citadel named "David's Tower" stands on the spot of a Phasael’s Tower.

Herod’s Three Towers - First Century Jerusalem - Bible History Online < click



oopsie.
busted.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Like first century Jerusalem being the great city viewed as the center of pure worship, modern Christendom is viewed as the great city that is viewed as the center of pure worship.

Like first century Jerusalem which was divided by various sects and twists of that which was considered to be the one pure worship, modern Christendom is divided by sects and twists of that which is considered to be the one pure worship.

Both were charged of God and held accountable to actually be centered upon the one true and pure worship. Both actually ended up doing as the great city called Sodom and Egypt of Revelation chapter 11.

The entire history of ancient Israel clear to the destruction of Jerusalem is an anti-type for us today. God used a small portion of the world, treating it is though the entire world, to show us would would become the case globally in these days we live in.

All that was a prophetic shadow for us.