question about the souls already dead

[vanillakay]

Ok so lets say the Rapture is real (please no flamers, i don't want a heated argument over who believes the rapture and who does'nt) it is said that the dead in Christ shall rise and that souls will be raised from there graves or something like that, please dont quote me as I do not know for sure. So my main question is..the people who have died already are they in heaven? or are they not? IF they only get raised when God raptures his church where are there souls at until then?.. if not in heaven or hell? in some limbo? iv found myself really really curious about this lately. Anyone?

 

[savedandhopeful]

Great questions

 

[nathan3]

I will point to what the subject is:

1st Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Paul said, I do not want you to be ignorant about where are the dead. Those that do not have hope are the non believers. If your confused about the simple figure of speech that sleep means dead, read ( John 11: 11-14 ; 1 Kings 2:10-12 etc )



14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


If you believe Christ died and rose again, those who have died and believe in Christ will Christ bring with Him. Why? Because Paul just said, don't be ignorant , they rose also and are with Him already. ( Luke 23:43 )


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


For this reason, God's word states, shall not go before ( it's what prevent means in the Greek ) those who have died, because they are already there as I ( Paul ) stated in verse 14.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Paul is beating the point, those Christians rise first because of the subject verse 13 -14, because they are already there, you cant ''go before them '' ( Prevent in the Greek in verse 15 ) , because they are already there. ( 2 Corinthians 5:8 ; Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 .

You don't want to get confused by how these teaching appear in English. Don't look at the:" dead in Christ" as people who are dead as in a grave some where.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Notice Paul mentions the Voice of the archangel and the trump of God at Christ return .
Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh angel sounding is the last trump. Paul mentions this last trump in 1 Cor 15 .



17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


We, which are alive, when it is Time for Christ to return, not before, shall be gathered together with those who have passed on to be with Christ, in a great Cloud of Christians ( Hebrews 12: 1 ) . Christ is returning here, so that air is that

I would read 1 cor 15, Paul there taught what this ' in the air '' means, ( 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 " the air, breath of life body- Greek " At the last trump which we just read is the seventh the angels sounds.)


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It should be a comfort.. Paul continues with His 2nd letter, Detailing what Must happen first, before the above happens, before Christ return. Satan comes first, because he comes at the 6th trump' , as Paul makes clear in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2.

 

[crossnote]

Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[starfield]

Ok so lets say the Rapture is real (please no flamers, i don't want a heated argument over who believes the rapture and who does'nt) it is said that the dead in Christ shall rise and that souls will be raised from there graves or something like that, please dont quote me as I do not know for sure. So my main question is..the people who have died already are they in heaven? or are they not? IF they only get raised when God raptures his church where are there souls at until then?.. if not in heaven or hell? in some limbo? iv found myself really really curious about this lately. Anyone?

They are in heaven. "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

 

[Laodicea]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring(lead away) with him.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

[Hizikyah]

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed."

Ecclesiasties 9:5, "For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."

Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

There were no commas in original text, and depending on where you put the comma it cahnges the meaning:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise"

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise"

"And Yahshua said to him; Truly I say to you this day: You will be with Me in paradise."

 

[nathan3]

I wouldn't let people confuse you here. Just study and take notes as you study from your Bible.

Figures of speech are important to understand also.

Like dead can mean, some one that passed away.

but it can also mean spiritual dead, meaning dead to understanding God's Truth. Your eyes are closed.

Sleep is not taking a nap as in rest, but often means some one that has died physically. And I have given you two scripture references to document that. in my original post here.

You can also not only be dead physically or spiritually ( that is, to the Truth ), but you can have a soul that is mortal, meaning liable to die, if it does not overcome eternally through Christ..

So its a play on words, that has many confused about figures of speech. AND also not being able to follow the Subject. So i would caution you not to take everyone's opinion as fact ,because the Majority of people have no clue about the right way to read these words. So they only see the surface English, which its meanings where not taken from. They only see that. They don't consider, nor do they even Care, that this is all taken from Greek Hebrew or whatever the case.

For that reason you have to be careful who you listen to. I did not do it the proper justice it deserves in explaining this fully. But, I think it gives you a good idea and base to start from

A simple strong's concordance can help you a lot to look at the original greek an hebrew meanings.

 

[Sanashankar]

They are in heaven. "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Sorry sis, but the verse doesn't say absent from the body IS to be present with the lord.

 

[Sanashankar]

Everybody dead except Jesus Christ is waiting for the day of resurrection.

David is not ascended
Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Man does not have immortal soul
Gn 3:22 . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

When a man die, his spirit goes back to God, and the body perishes. Soul is there only when we have spirit and body.
Ec 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Jb 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Jb 14:9 [Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Jb 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?
Jb 14:11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Jb 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The only difference is for Jesus Christ, whom God raised on the third day. That was his appointed time to raise, to become the "firstborn from the dead" .it was for our hope in eternal life.


It is God who raised Jesus Christ
Ga 1:1 . Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
Ac 2:24 Whom God hath raised up,
Ac 10:40 Him God raised up the third day,

God gave back the spirit of Jesus Christ and his body did not see corruption as prophesied.

 

[Hizikyah]

None have an ETERNAL SPIRIT/SOUL right now, one can only obtain that from Yahweh if they enter His kingdom.

This eternal spirit/soul thing was basically the first lie ever told:

Genesis 3:4, "And the serpent said to the woman; You will not surely die."

Yahweh siad if they disobeyed Him they would die, He didnt say instantly, the real death is the 2nd death.

Some will be rusurrected to eternal life and some will be resurrected to the lake of fire and willnever exist again.

the pagan egyptians believed that everyone had an "eternal sp[irit" thats why they mummified themselves and buried with all there riches.

 

[RickyZ]

Ok so lets say the Rapture is real (please no flamers, i don't want a heated argument over who believes the rapture and who does'nt) it is said that the dead in Christ shall rise and that souls will be raised from there graves or something like that, please dont quote me as I do not know for sure. So my main question is..the people who have died already are they in heaven? or are they not? IF they only get raised when God raptures his church where are there souls at until then?.. if not in heaven or hell? in some limbo? iv found myself really really curious about this lately. Anyone?

You have to understand how time and eternity interact. It's not linear, as in eternity - time - then eternity again. Think of a wheel, with eternity in the hub and time running along the rim. With this view you can see how God in eternity can have contact all of time, all of the time, like randomly inserted spokes. And conversely, how someone who "dies" and leaves the realm of time is instantly before God's Throne, as their body dirt naps until resurrection.

"Suddenly there was the multitude", praising and rejoicing before God. That's us, even tho we leave time at different times, we all arrive in eternity at the same time.

 

[starfield]

Sorry sis, but the verse doesn't say absent from the body IS to be present with the lord.

The verse shows that believers go to be with the Lord after death. There's no indication of soul sleep.
Furthermore...
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59 KJV).
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil 1:23 KJV).

 

[starfield]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring(lead away) with him.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

...and 'sleep' is euphemism for death. The doctrine of soul sleep is a fallacy.

 

[Hizikyah]

who are the dead that are raised incorruptible?

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

 

[Trax]

So my main question is..the people who have died already are they in heaven? or are they not? IF they only get raised when God raptures his church where are there souls at until then?.. if not in heaven or hell? in some limbo? iv found myself really really curious about this lately. Anyone?

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

We are saved in Christ Jesus. He is in us and we are in Him. Those who died didn't
stop being "in Him." They are with Him. The Good Shepherd ALWAYS keeps the sheep near.

 

[notuptome]

Those who have died and are believers are with the Lord. The rapture is where they are reunited with their bodies which are now in the grave. Those who are alive are translated into their resurrected bodies and all ascent into the clouds with the Lord. All then return with the Lord at the end of the tribulation when Christ comes to rule on the earth from His throne in Jerusalem.

The rapture is for the resurrection of the redeemed not the condemned which are resurrected after the 1000 year rule of Christ and the rebellion before the Great White Throne Judgment. All those before the GWT are condemned.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sanashankar]

The verse shows that believers go to be with the Lord after death. There's no indication of soul sleep.
Furthermore...
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59 KJV).
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil 1:23 KJV).

So then what abt these

David not yet ascended in Acts 2:34

1C 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Everybody who resurrects will put on immortality. be it sinners or believers. ok, but what abt this:

1C 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1C 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1C 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

it doesnt say believers, it says the dead....sinners are raised in glory, power, in a spiritual body?????

power

G1411 dunamis doo'-nam-is

from G1410;

force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself).

why wud god keep a day for resurrection, if all believers wud go to lord soon after the death?when is this going to happen?

1C 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

If Abraham has ascended to heaven before Christ then what abt these verse

Ac 26:23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead


If every soul is gone to lord after Jesus' resurrection then why David is not yet ascended?

Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens

 

[Sanashankar]

...and 'sleep' is euphemism for death. The doctrine of soul sleep is a fallacy.

man is not an immortal soul, he is a "LIVING SOUL" until he dies and then he is a "DEAD SOUL"

Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When every human being die, the spirit goes back to God and the body perishes.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Spirit of God is required for man to resurrect from the dead or to be a living soul. Adam became a living soul when the spirit went inside the body.

The bible is very clear abt the state of death

Jb 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Jb 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Jb 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

If every dead person go to god and hell soon after the death, when is the judgment. God will take those who are burning in fire outside and judge them and again put them in hell??????

 

[directline2iam]

Ok so lets say the Rapture is real (please no flamers, i don't want a heated argument over who believes the rapture and who does'nt) it is said that the dead in Christ shall rise and that souls will be raised from there graves or something like that, please dont quote me as I do not know for sure. So my main question is..the people who have died already are they in heaven? or are they not? IF they only get raised when God raptures his church where are there souls at until then?.. if not in heaven or hell? in some limbo? iv found myself really really curious about this lately. Anyone?

Your live soul is resting in heaven with the Father and the Son:

The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
Rev 6:9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

And here is more proof that can't be denied:

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what nathan3 posted, you can take that to the bank, it's excellent testimony.