With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?

[zone]

[video=youtube;8uUeH2Bn5ps]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uUeH2Bn5ps[/video]

Robert Morris confuses Law and Gospel

...

does anyone believe this?
Robert Morris (the BagMan called in for the fleecings) has these cutesy quips back and forth with `the lord`.

listen to the-Holy-Spirit-is-descending-music at the HAND OVER YOUR TITHE portion.
tithing removes the CURSE.
it redeems OUR income.

i want you to make a commitment - to start tithing. it`s the only thing that removes THAT CURSE.
ugh.
disgusting.

 

[GreenNnice]

Why doesn't God just heal someone of cancer? Why does He work His 'gifts' through us ?

How can either cessatioinist or a continuationist EVER hope to prove that spiritual gifts are one way or another to each other when God speaks to someone He is to do work through, let's call that person, 'workmanship.'

Are we all His 'workmanship" is a question to you.

What does that mean, for us to be His workmanship . Did He just make us and we are supposed to read our bible and just follow it's rules, or, is it ALL of that and MORE, like, 'we are created to do good works.' Of course, to do good works when one is in a sinful fleshy body requires what ? FAITH

We have to have faith in Him , in His leading us through the work that we are to do and are doing as His Spirit leads in us, does this make sense?

Hopefully no one thinks I AM setting a standard for what MUST be done in our Christian lives. No ! We are supposed to, as creationteacher tells us, to just continue to read The Word and to appreciate it's work and to live our lives in a mode of understanding that God CAN and WILL use us when He needs something done that requires work, that requires....

....faith in Him. We all can work for Him in our life, and, should, the spiritual gifts are given us in this kind of scenario 'who knew.' You, certainly, don't, except, maybe, I don't know, I guess, God can tell you, but, He says Himself that we are to believe without having needed a SIGN

I want to repeat the above because I don't think anyone understands it, yet

And, no, God does not give us license and, no, prayer does not give him license to work through us, neither, nor, rickZ, and, no, ohzone, God does NOT work His spiritual gifts through us ON OTHERS without our participation, but, it's NOT a license, it's not legality, it's simply what, green?

FAITH ! Faith to receive. Faith to believe that when you are helping someone out, in some way, in some mysterious godliness way God is WORKING His gifts through you. And, this is what I am hammering home from the last post that was said but unsaid, until now: YOU do NOT know FULLY what God is working through you. You just are to have FAITH that God IS working His gifts through you, this, Christ peeps, is the 'receiving' of gifts as He wills to do for His 'good pleasure.' For His glory.

 

[reject-tech]

[h=2]With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing...[/h]

[SUP]
13 [/SUP]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes?!

and whence came they?!

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.

 

[thecreationtutor]

could our answers to this post be tainted by the charlatans we see, and the people we meet on the highways and byways that have been hurt by them ?

Remember we don't build the church, God does

 

[GreenNnice]

[SUP]
13 [/SUP]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes?!

and whence came they?!

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.

Huh? You lost me. Please, allow my green brains to be found

could our answers to this post be tainted by the charlatans we see, and the people we meet on the highways and byways that have been hurt by them ?

Remember we don't build the church, God does

Amen. We don't do nothing, do we now / It's all His building through us from He, who is our firm foundation.



To you question, my answer is, 'Yes, we are tainted by those who speak judgment against our beliefs. The ones hurt most are those youngers who are still trying to grasp understanding of the way they believe in Him.

 

[reject-tech]

Huh? You lost me. Please, allow my green brains to be found

Just meant that chapter tells us who miracle workers are.

And nobody is doing genuine street gifts for these reasons -

57And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 58And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

And Matthew 6:25-35

I believe He is serious as a heart attack when He says to take to walking with one change of clothes.
So why won't I do it?
How can a person completely shed the system? And get the worries of bills and insurance and pride of ownership out of the heart so that the Holy Spirit can FILL a person.

We can have too little "empty space on our hard drives" to have gifts "installed".
It would draw the crowds and the media and the world would never be the same.

I believe anybody that shows gifts like the apostles, is gonna be pretty hard core.
Not hidden in some church or in a stadium.

 

[GreenNnice]

Just meant that chapter tells us who miracle workers are.

And nobody is doing genuine street gifts for these reasons -

57And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 58And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

And Matthew 6:25-35

I believe He is serious as a heart attack when He says to take to walking with one change of clothes.
So why won't I do it?
How can a person completely shed the system? And get the worries of bills and insurance and pride of ownership out of the heart so that the Holy Spirit can FILL a person.

We can have too little "empty space on our hard drives" to have gifts "installed".
It would draw the crowds and the media and the world would never be the same.

I believe anybody that shows gifts like the apostles, is gonna be pretty hard core.
Not hidden in some church or in a stadium.

I'm not saying this is why God will use you , but, I think, the faith of going and selling everything and following Him, whatever that means, it doesn't necessarily mean selling your home, car, and, kids (just kidding about the latter ) and becoming a street preacher or ????

It means letting Him lead your life and IF He leads you to LOSE EVERYTHING then that's a pretty good sign that God's going to use you in some 'great' way that you are unaware but that's OK, because YOU will just be following Him, entertaining many through the gifts He uses through you, WITHOUT your right brain knowing what your left brain is doing--I say this 'brainiac' comment tongue-in-cheek ) But, the Truth remains, your right hand will NOT know what your left hand is doing, this is to say that we do things for God's glory this way, not our own. In other words.....


When God uses you, techrejecter, YOU don't KNOW what's going on a lot of the time (all?) . You simply are doing your life according to His will and His good pleasure, and, YES, I am speaking from 1 Corinthians 12 and Matthew 6:3 (loosely used) .

Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP]a[/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP]b[/SUP] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Unity and Diversity in the Body
12Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[SUP]c[/SUP] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[SUP]d[/SUP] ? Do all interpret? 31Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Now, you will read this of what I said, perhaps, if cessationist, and, NOT get what's being said.
That's OK, because God works His 'Gift' of Himself in Spirit, given to our inner man, through belief in Him, first, being 'born again,' and, subsequently, enhancing our relationship, not to mention, 'sealing our redemption' received through FAITH, like, laying on of hands, or ??? however so, He leads.

He leads us to believe in 'street gifts' like healing, prophecy, tongues, DIFFERENTLY.

Fine !

A lot of Christians like to THINK a different understanding of doctrine is wrong. No, it's just His way of working through you , how His Spirit is BEST, is perfectly leading your life to best be IN Him. And, that being IN HIM is what matters

 

[reject-tech]

He leads us to believe in 'street gifts' like healing, prophecy, tongues, DIFFERENTLY.

I've only ever believed in the hard core unwithered hands and mental illness fixing kind of miracles.
I have looked for them since I was a kid, and learned to scrutinize very carefully.
The things you see on TV and youtube are the same things I wrote off as a babe. Decades ago.
I've never seen a shock inducing miracle like Jesus did, but I believe a person can follow Jesus to the point of doing them, and that nobody has since those apostles lived or not long after. I think the next wave is being saved for the last days as Jesus gets close. Shock and awe, tribulation like the world has never seen.
I believe it's the only way the whole world will stop and hear the good news one more time.

So my stance is "intermittent cessationism" or "isolated continuationism" and I believe the next wave of gifts is any year or day now.

Imagine it on the six o'clock news in every country lol. Peace out.

 

[RedTent]

Here is what I think about how God uses us, whether it is in the spirit or in the flesh. I think it is always in the flesh that He uses us, but through the spirit.

Ever since God created man and the earth, there has been a connection between the spiritual and the physical. Every time Jesus healed someone, he used something physical as a tie between the spiritual and physical, even if it was a tiny bit of mud applied to blind eyes. The entire bible, every page of it, has something that shows that one reflects the other.

Even the other side of God, the devil's side, uses man to express his ways, and works through man.

Especially in the OT, God would often tell men to do something physical and they wouldn't have a clue about why they were doing it. For instance, how could they know that blood symbolized Christ, they hadn't experienced Christ yet. It was after Christ that we were given spiritual meanings to many things we do and told it was the spiritual meanings that were important. Based on that, some misinformed well meaning Christians say it doesn't matter what we do as long as we know the spiritual side of it, but there IS a connection and it still does matter what we do.

 

[GreenNnice]

I thought the voting was quite interesting. AFter the first 4 days of the thread there was a 1:6 ratio of those believing continuationists should be the one's proving that the spiritual gifts exist.

Then, I looked a week later--after had made that above observation to all in a post-- and the ratio is 5:9.

Anyway, I say all this because, I think, most continuationists MIGHT believe there should be a third choice in the voting.....



.......neither.


Neither needs to prove anything. They just need to let the Lord lead their life.


So, on one side, we have the cessationists, who believe the gifts died and God does not use people in ANY situation in today's age, or, any age before today, for that matter, and that continuationists MUST prove to them that gifts exist.

LOL, that won't happen because God does not show His gifts in that way. He shows up when we are in need in life, hurting, financially, emotionally otherwise, helping us get through a tough time in life. But, just throwing a gift of healing on us in some 'aura' and 'ahh' glory-shining sort of way. Nope. NOt gonna happen. I don't think.

That's just not how God works His gifts . He does NOT show us proof of Himself, NONE of us have EVER seen Him, there is a reason for that, don't ya think, beyond the fact that we could not behold His glory without being blinded, or, even dying , because God's glory of Himself seeing us FACE TO FACE is soooo great

 

[presidente]

As a matter of doctrine the burden of proof is on the Cessationists since there are clear verses of scripture that state that the Spirit gives certain gifts to members of the body and because in the last days, the Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, sons and daughters prophesying, etc. If it isn't true, then the Cessationists need to show it.

I suppose you could argue that the burden of proof for individual cases is on the one claiming the case of it is true. If there needs to be a burden of proof at all. Remember two or three witnesses is evidence.

 

[Smudge]

I don't attend an extremely "charismatic" church, as we call 'em... but I've seen the "big time" gifts being used.

To list a few:

#1. My Mom just found something(as in a couple days ago) that she wrote down after praying to God before the economy crashed. She wrote down that God was warning her that she was about to be tested and that hardships were coming. Again- before the economy.(There was a LOT of spiritual growth since then. A lot of the early stuff, Mom kept finding those 'refining' verses.) I'd call that prophesy.

#2. My old roommate has suffered from a lifetime of an extremely sensitive nose causing her to have daily headaches, some making her so sick she would have to skip class. I couldn't buy perfume or scented anything while I lived with her. Just last summer(2012) she went to a conference, a complete stranger prayed for her and she has been healed. Though I saw her a few months after it had happened, she was still trying out new smells that she couldn't stand before. So- there's healing for you.

For me personally, I've had lots of experiences, and I've had prayers answered in ways that I can't even believe. The Holy Spirit will sometimes visit me, and he has been so vividly clear with me that my eardrums hurt in response. I mean it. And he looks out for me.

I was looking for a job all year, recently got one. But the start of the summer, not one call back... except for one. The one I was so excited about. The one that would be the most beneficial.

Holy Spirit told me no. It made me sick not to go for the interview. Then, the very next morning- on the radio just as I walk into the room. An announcement that there was a job scam in my town. The same business that called me. They wanted $89 for a drug test- then they wouldn't call you back after they got your money.

I could go on with more testimonies, but It's nearing 2 in the morning and I need rest. You guys are distracting.

And I'm NOT saying to believe every single story you hear- there are people who just want to pull your leg or whatever. And be careful with the thought that if someone was healed- it'd be all over the news. I think the fakers have spoiled the faith of those who were unsure to begin with.

And with the question: Why did you heal this person and not this other person? You might as well ask why we have evil. Part of it has to do with free will. Part of it has to do with learning to stand tall in your trials. Some people would never think to pray to God unless something bad happened to them. God doesn't cause bad things to happen, he uses them as opportunities to let his people do good.

My family has had a horrible time during this economy. We were kicked repeatedly while we were down. Our business was in the Housing Market. It crashed, so no income. Just then the car broke down, then we found out my Dad had cancer. It kept going on like that for years. But God gave us what we needed. We still had food, we still had a roof over our head. I shudder to think where I might be in my faith if I was let off easy. That's not an exaggeration. No hyperboles here. A literal shudder.

And if that isn't enough- just think of Gianna Jessen. She's a survivor. Of abortion. She has physical disabilities to this day because of what her own mother tried to have done to her while she was defenseless. Her testimony touches so many people all over the world.

The Lord is at work. In big ways and little ways as always. If you wait for the whole world to recognize it before you decide to trust in it- you're going to realize it too late. Don't depend on ANYONE ELSE for YOUR faith. Believe whether or not people think it's plausible! This is YOUR future at stake. It is between you and God and no one else.

NOW. I am going to bed. Good night you lovely people, and good health to you all. (This is why I frequently disappear. If I log in, I ain't logging out for a good while)

(And God takes his time sometimes- I mean seriously- still single over here!) ((If you didn't laugh, go find a feather duster and tickle yourself for me s'il vous plait.))

 

[Powemm]

With WHO? God
The Burden of proof? Jesus

the questions coming after reading all this is..

Does God cease to be who He is at anytime? No, He is infinate
Does God ever loose His capabilities? No
since He is in us and we are in Him , created from His own image, given all "not some" but "all authority" in Jesus christ, would
God ever take away His Sons authorities? No God would not.. he says we are sealed.
WHO are we to believe? God.. mans mind always changes

 

[RickyZ]

I've only ever believed in the hard core unwithered hands and mental illness fixing kind of miracles.
I have looked for them since I was a kid, and learned to scrutinize very carefully.
The things you see on TV and youtube are the same things I wrote off as a babe. Decades ago.
I've never seen a shock inducing miracle like Jesus did, but I believe a person can follow Jesus to the point of doing them, and that nobody has since those apostles lived or not long after. I think the next wave is being saved for the last days as Jesus gets close. Shock and awe, tribulation like the world has never seen.
I believe it's the only way the whole world will stop and hear the good news one more time.

So my stance is "intermittent cessationism" or "isolated continuationism" and I believe the next wave of gifts is any year or day now.

Imagine it on the six o'clock news in every country lol. Peace out.

Here is what I think about how God uses us, whether it is in the spirit or in the flesh. I think it is always in the flesh that He uses us, but through the spirit.

Ever since God created man and the earth, there has been a connection between the spiritual and the physical. Every time Jesus healed someone, he used something physical as a tie between the spiritual and physical, even if it was a tiny bit of mud applied to blind eyes. The entire bible, every page of it, has something that shows that one reflects the other.

Even the other side of God, the devil's side, uses man to express his ways, and works through man.

Especially in the OT, God would often tell men to do something physical and they wouldn't have a clue about why they were doing it. For instance, how could they know that blood symbolized Christ, they hadn't experienced Christ yet. It was after Christ that we were given spiritual meanings to many things we do and told it was the spiritual meanings that were important. Based on that, some misinformed well meaning Christians say it doesn't matter what we do as long as we know the spiritual side of it, but there IS a connection and it still does matter what we do.

I thought the voting was quite interesting. AFter the first 4 days of the thread there was a 1:6 ratio of those believing continuationists should be the one's proving that the spiritual gifts exist.

Then, I looked a week later--after had made that above observation to all in a post-- and the ratio is 5:9.

Anyway, I say all this because, I think, most continuationists MIGHT believe there should be a third choice in the voting.....



.......neither.


Neither needs to prove anything. They just need to let the Lord lead their life.


So, on one side, we have the cessationists, who believe the gifts died and God does not use people in ANY situation in today's age, or, any age before today, for that matter, and that continuationists MUST prove to them that gifts exist.

LOL, that won't happen because God does not show His gifts in that way. He shows up when we are in need in life, hurting, financially, emotionally otherwise, helping us get through a tough time in life. But, just throwing a gift of healing on us in some 'aura' and 'ahh' glory-shining sort of way. Nope. NOt gonna happen. I don't think.

That's just not how God works His gifts . He does NOT show us proof of Himself, NONE of us have EVER seen Him, there is a reason for that, don't ya think, beyond the fact that we could not behold His glory without being blinded, or, even dying , because God's glory of Himself seeing us FACE TO FACE is soooo great

Wow. That was just an incredible run of wisdom and insight. Including the two I didn't quote because I figured it was getting long enough. But yeah, there is some inspired commentary there. Those who doubt should listen to what the Spirit is saying.

Reason it out. God did not intend mankind to be sick. But mankind fell and he is. God's Son Jesus came to make man well again. He has regained that authority, but has not returned yet to enforce it. Until He does, He has given us the ability thru the gifts to tap His authority, and to enforce it here and now for Him. The gifts become moot and cease when He returns us and our world to perfection, because at that point, again, we will no longer need the gift of healing when people are no longer getting sick.

It's as simple as that. Anything that tells you differently is a deceiving spirit.

 

[RickyZ]

Zone, d@##!t, I've still got you blocked and don't read your responses (again, my bad not yours), but I am so burdened of the Spirit that God does want to do a miracle in your hospice, but that YOU are standing in the way by way of your disbelief.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Now if in the coming days someone else says something along the same lines, take note. And if a third witness says the same, you'd best listen up. That's how it works.

 

[RickyZ]

BTW that's in Matt. 18:16

 

[RedTent]

Zone, d@##!t, I've still got you blocked and don't read your responses (again, my bad not yours), but I am so burdened of the Spirit that God does want to do a miracle in your hospice, but that YOU are standing in the way by way of your disbelief.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Now if in the coming days someone else says something along the same lines, take note. And if a third witness says the same, you'd best listen up. That's how it works.

Zone is constantly in my prayers, and of course I block her. She often has God's truth in what she says, that makes her all the more dangerous.

 

[RickyZ]

She is indeed a marvel of memorization, there's no doubting that. I just react badly to her dismissive attitude and her total lack of practical experience. Blocking her isn't to keep her from preaching, but to keep me from reacting.

 

[zone]

Zone, d@##!t, I've still got you blocked and don't read your responses (again, my bad not yours), but I am so burdened of the Spirit that God does want to do a miracle in your hospice, but that YOU are standing in the way by way of your disbelief.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Now if in the coming days someone else says something along the same lines, take note. And if a third witness says the same, you'd best listen up. That's how it works.

my mother passed away August 24th at 7:50am, ricky.

did she die because of my unbelief?
ask God for me...would you?

after you let Him know she died 3 weeks ago.
maybe He could take that burden off you.

thanks for giving Him the message for me ricky.
i don't know what He would do without you.

 

[zone]

He leads us to believe in 'street gifts' like healing, prophecy, tongues, DIFFERENTLY.

since when will He lead people to believe differently?