Can we get rid of the term free will for unbelievers?

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phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#81
Feb 12, 2009
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#81
eternally-gratefull said:

Oh is this so?

People always chose against who they are.

If I chose who I was, I would still be a legalistic calvanistic person who did not understand the love of God.

Saul would have remained a pharisee

Mathew would have remained a tax collector.

Peter would still be a fisherman.
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I don't think you have thought this through..

Paul had to be renewed before he chose right.... as Peter etc.

I am sorry to hear that you say you where a legalistic Calvinist.. to be honest I would have to say that you may call yourself that but you obviously never knew the grace that reformed theology teaches, or if you did it did not sink into your heart.. the wonderous love of God.

Men cannot morally choose outside of their nature they 'freely' choose, but that does not make it 'free'.
 
B

BradC

Guest
#82
#82
I would not hesitate to encourage any unbeliever to exercise their free volition and believe upon Christ what he did for them through his shed blood. They would have no problem understanding that and would have freedom of choice to believe by faith the gospel presented to them or reject it with the same free volition. If they exercised faith to believe in Christ, the Spirit would be involved in that decision but if they remained in unbelief it would be all flesh through the pride of life. To turn from self unto the living God takes an exercise of the volition through faith. Every person has that option to believe once the gospel is presented to them and without the gospel they have nothing to turn to and no hope to embrace with that same volition. The heart is what God is after and when he convicts the heart the volition must take action upon that conviction through faith. Without free volition given by God to man, man has no chance at salvation. The Holy Spirit through grace prompts the volition in man to receive Christ and the things that are freely given unto us of God. Those who are cast into the lake of fire became workers of iniquity through cooperating in their free volition with the god of this present evil world.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#83
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#83
BradC said:
I would not hesitate to encourage any unbeliever to exercise their free volition and believe upon Christ what he did for them through his shed blood. They would have no problem understanding that and would have freedom of choice to believe by faith the gospel presented to them or reject it with the same free volition. If they exercised faith to believe in Christ, the Spirit would be involved in that decision but if they remained in unbelief it would be all flesh through the pride of life. To turn from self unto the living God takes an exercise of the volition through faith. Every person has that option to believe once the gospel is presented to them and without the gospel they have nothing to turn to and no hope to embrace with that same volition. The heart is what God is after and when he convicts the heart the volition must take action upon that conviction through faith. Without free volition given by God to man, man has no chance at salvation. The Holy Spirit through grace prompts the volition in man to receive Christ and the things that are freely given unto us of God. Those who are cast into the lake of fire became workers of iniquity through cooperating in their free volition with the god of this present evil world.
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I am free to write what scripture says and free to disregard this Biblically with Jesus' own words -

John 6:44 -No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#84
Jun 30, 2011
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#84
eternally-gratefull said:
so we can;t chose to see the law and have it lead us to Christ?

then why did God give us the law. It would be useless.
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The Law gave sin it's power - I would not know coveting, unless it said Thou shalt not covet

We are not under the law because as Believers we have free will to chose not to sin
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#85
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#85
thecreationtutor said:
The Law gave sin it's power - I would not know coveting, unless it said Thou shalt not covet

We are not under the law because as Believers we have free will to chose not to sin
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Glory Bomb for the Lord
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#86
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#86
eternally-gratefull said:

Oh is this so?

People always chose against who they are.

If I chose who I was, I would still be a legalistic calvanistic person who did not understand the love of God.

Saul would have remained a pharisee

Mathew would have remained a tax collector.

Peter would still be a fisherman.
Click to expand...

If you were in a legalistic church, I am sorry, always be careful of not going towards license - also the last 3 choices do not make sense in light of the Holy Spirit doing a work of Grace to lay hold of the 3 people. I also hope that you don't take us to be legalistic - i don't think we have said that you have to hold to the doctrines of grace to be saved

I'll work with any professing believer who holds to Eph 4:1-6 - unless they really freak me out lol
 
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p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#87
Sep 4, 2013
30,330
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#87
thecreationtutor said:
The Law gave sin it's power - I would not know coveting, unless it said Thou shalt not covet

We are not under the law because as Believers we have free will to chose not to sin
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Seriously? We would still "know" coveting, we just wouldn't know that we could be DAMNED for coveting without the Law.........

Yes, man has the free will to choose not to sin, man also has the free will to choose to sin, and many, many do...... :)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#88
#88
phil36 said:
I don't think you have thought this through..

Paul had to be renewed before he chose right.... as Peter etc.
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No. They could not be renewed until they were forgiven. For until then, they were still dead because of sin.

Your the one not thinking this through.

I am sorry to hear that you say you where a legalistic Calvinist.. to be honest I would have to say that you may call yourself that but you obviously never knew the grace that reformed theology teaches, or if you did it did not sink into your heart.. the wonderous love of God.
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Welcome to being a baptist.

Men cannot morally choose outside of their nature they 'freely' choose, but that does not make it 'free'.
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Correct. Which is why they can;t chose not to sin.,

But they can chose to admit their dire need and recieve the grace of God. THIS IS FREE WILL
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#89
#89
thecreationtutor said:
The Law gave sin it's power - I would not know coveting, unless it said Thou shalt not covet

We are not under the law because as Believers we have free will to chose not to sin
Click to expand...

Incorrect.

You would not know coveting was sin unless it said, Do not covet. You misinterpreted that.

People commited adultry before it said do not commit adultry. But then the law came, and they died. Because they had no excuse.

That is where the law comes in, We can not even obey ten correctly. Let alone the many other laws God has given.

We are not under law because the law could never show us how to live begin with.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#90
#90
thecreationtutor said:
If you were in a legalistic church, I am sorry, always be careful of not going towards license - also the last 3 choices do not make sense in light of the Holy Spirit doing a work of Grace to lay hold of the 3 people. I also hope that you don't take us to be legalistic - i don't think we have said that you have to hold to the doctrines of grace to be saved

I'll work with any professing believer who holds to Eph 4:1-6 - unless they really freak me out lol
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it was the worst kind of legalistic church

They taught salvation by grace through faith alone. But claimed if you continued certain sins you could not be saved.

Instead of helping sinners, they judged them.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#91
Feb 12, 2009
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#91
eternally-gratefull said:
No. They could not be renewed until they were forgiven. For until then, they were still dead because of sin.

Your the one not thinking this through.



Welcome to being a baptist.



Correct. Which is why they can;t chose not to sin.,

But they can chose to admit their dire need and recieve the grace of God. THIS IS FREE WILL
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MMmmm they cannot choose not to sin I thought you said man has free will and can will as he pleases.. you seem confused as to what you are trying to say free will is.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#92
#92
phil36 said:
MMmmm they cannot choose not to sin I thought you said man has free will and can will as he pleases.. you seem confused as to what you are trying to say free will is.
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Nope not at all.

I can chose as an unbeliever to not commit adultry. But am I doing good by doing that?

Again, try to think!
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#93
Feb 12, 2009
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#93
eternally-gratefull said:
Nope not at all.

I can chose as an unbeliever to not commit adultry. But am I doing good by doing that?

Again, try to think!
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I don't think you have thought to well here.

If the unregenerate tries to be moral it is to please himself or to look good or to appease his conscience.. it is not moraly pleasing to God.. as unregenerate man can never choose morally good.
 
W

weakness

Guest
#94
#94
​I guess because I am forgiven daily I will be renewed daily and be changed into his image. I just do not want to behold myself in a mirror then go my way and forget what manner of man I was.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#95
Jun 30, 2011
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#95
weakness said:
​I guess because I am forgiven daily I will be renewed daily and be changed into his image. I just do not want to behold myself in a mirror then go my way and forget what manner of man I was.
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Yes! Yes! Lord Keep me!
 
I

in2it

Guest
#96
#96
We do have free will. God knew us so well that he already knew the choice that we would make. After all he created us. Who better would know what we would choose?
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#97
Feb 12, 2009
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#97
in2it said:
We do have free will. God knew us so well that he already knew the choice that we would make. After all he created us. Who better would know what we would choose?
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So he wasn't willing to help those he knew would not choose him?
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#99
Jun 30, 2011
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#99
p_rehbein said:
Seriously? We would still "know" coveting, we just wouldn't know that we could be DAMNED for coveting without the Law.........

Yes, man has the free will to choose not to sin, man also has the free will to choose to sin, and many, many do...... :)
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Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me[h]coveting of every kind; for apart [i]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was[k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good


Well Paul right
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#100
Jun 30, 2011
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#100
eternally-gratefull said:

it was the worst kind of legalistic church

They taught salvation by grace through faith alone. But claimed if you continued certain sins you could not be saved.

Instead of helping sinners, they judged them.
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Scripture does warn if you continue in certain sins if you persevere in them - you ultimately show you don't have salvation. I think there is more to just one sin but one root sin that produces all sorts of bad fruit that defiles many

Judging is right - just judgement however - There is assurance of salvation - not assumption

Also what is going on with that sin - does the person believe wrongly that they are a slave to it? That they must not be saved because they are still trapped in that sin in the moment? A solid grace filled person can tell them - that he is basically giving God a standard of salvation, saying to Him that what Christ did on the Cross wasn't good enough. That's not counseling them to help them bear fruits of repentance - to hate and kill their sin
 
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