A True New Testament Church

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
6,529
113
#1
Today, reading in the forum I came across the expression "a true New Testament Church."

I suppose there is such a thing today, but I hope all who call on the name of Yeshua, Jesus, are versed enough in the history of our progress from the time our Lord walked His earth to know the original converts to the faith of Abraham did not have a New Testament, and it is probably a good thing for them they did not.


You see the pagans, the nations, had to learn the concept of what a sin is. In order to learn this they were taught by the Twelve plus Paul from the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets.


They had to understand about atonement, and exactly what they needed to atone for. They were taught all about the history of the faith of Abraham and the law, for sin is transgressing the law.


They also learned of all the prophesies of Yeshua, Jesus, in these same writings beginning in Genesis all the way through to Malachi. It must have been fascinating and glorious to learn all that the Jews knew and much they did not for not accepting Messiah. These people were of the faith of Abraham, from that other flock our Lord taught us of which He was to have brought together with His original flock. We are now one with our Lord and the faith of Abraham.

The Holy Scripture comprising the New Testament is the recounting of how Yeshua, Jesus, fulfilled all the prophesies of Messiah and all the teachings from the Law. As per the law, He completed the law for all who call upon Him in Spirit and Truth by taking the curse of the law with Him on the cross. That curse died as far as we are concerned, but it still exists for those who are not saved by
Yeshua, Jesus, and His great sacrifice on that cross.

That curse, of course, is punishment and death. That curse being destroyed for all who are saved by the Blood of the Lamb, providing they do not turn to wanton sin, no longer exists. This does not mean we have license to sin. Because sin is breaking the law, we are still expected to live by the laws although we will never be perfect until the work begun in us by God is finished for we perfect nothing. God does all the perfecting. Meanwhile, sorry warm and fuzzies, we are to obey the Father. To say the law is dead is the same as saying we may break it with impunity. This is a lie of the enemy.

What child, good child, does not fear his parents to the point of obeying them? Only an evil child, for it is written even a child is known by his conduct. Also, fear of God is a stepping stone to His perfect love because once we have experienced His love, that fear goes away.


The New Testament part of the Book, for it is one book, elaborates on the fulfilling of all righteousnous by Yeshua, Jesus, by many reliable witnesses and the apostles, and it contains the Gospel or Good News delivered by Him for all who are saved.

A good New Testament Church will teach all of the Word, amen.

 
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#2
To say the law is dead is the same as saying we may break it with impunity.
No.

Only a "living" law may be broken.

A "dead" law has no jurisdiction.


Nonetheless -- it is not that the law is dead -- but rather, that we are dead to the law ( Romans 7 ). ;)


( More later... :cool: Perhaps... :p Lord willing... :eek: )

:)
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#3
I would not go there

"a true half of the truth church"

"a church ignoring what Jesus said to do church"

How about a TRUE BIBLE BASED CHURCH?

hint
there are three people in that church
I have NEVER seen a true Bible ollowing church with more than three people
Neither did PAul in the new testament
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#4
No.

Only a "living" law may be broken.

A "dead" law has no jurisdiction.


Nonetheless -- it is not that the law is dead -- but rather, that we are dead to the law ( Romans 7 ). ;)


( More later... :cool: Perhaps... :p Lord willing... :eek: )

:)
Romans 8:2, "Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death."

The Law we are free of or dead to is the law of sin and death, not Yahweh's Law:

Romans 7:7, "7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Romans 7:14, "For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

The parable about a womans husband dying is about being dead to sin not dead to righteous Instruction.
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#5
David says:
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Gen 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.


"Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous." Psalms 1:5


"For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Psalms 1:6


"For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield." Psalms 5:12


"Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins." Psalms 7:9


"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day." Psalms 7:11


"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Psalms 11:3


"The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." Psalms 11:5


"For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright." Psalms 11:7


"There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous." Psalms 14:5


"The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether." Psalms 19:9


"Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous." Psalms 31:18


"Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart." Psalms 32:11


"Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright." Psalms 33:1


"The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry." Psalms 34:15


"The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles." Psalms 34:17


"Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all." Psalms 34:19


"Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate." Psalms 34:21


"Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant." Psalms 35:27


"A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked." Psalms 37:16


"For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous." Psalms 37:17


"The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth." Psalms 37:21


"I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." Psalms 37:25


"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." Psalms 37:29


"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." Psalms 37:30


"The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him." Psalms 37:32


"But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble." Psalms 37:39


"The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:" Psalms 52:6


"Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved." Psalms 55:22


"The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked." Psalms 58:10


"So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth." Psalms 58:11


"The righteous shall be glad in the LORD, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory." Psalms 64:10


"But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice." Psalms 68:3


"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalms 69:28


"In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth." Psalms 72:7


"All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted." Psalms 75:10


"The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon." Psalms 92:12


"They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood." Psalms 94:21


"Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart." Psalms 97:11


"Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness." Psalms 97:12


"The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth." Psalms 107:42


"Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous." Psalms 112:4


"Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance." Psalms 112:6


"Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful." Psalms 116:5


"The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly." Psalms 118:15


"This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter." Psalms 118:20


"I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments." Psalms 119:7


"At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments." Psalms 119:62


"I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments." Psalms 119:106


"TZADDI. Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments." Psalms 119:137


"Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful." Psalms 119:138


"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalms 119:160


"Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments." Psalms 119:164


"For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity." Psalms 125:3


"The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked." Psalms 129:4


"Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence." Psalms 140:13


"Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities." Psalms 141:5


"Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me." Psalms 142:7


"The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." Psalms 145:17


"The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:" Psalms 146:8
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#6
Remember
righteousness = ten commandments = Gods character of love
psalm 119:172
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
6,529
113
#7
In posting the OP I fully realize the difference between what is alive and what is dead. All one need do is learn from our Savior by His Word and by His deed. We all should know the difference between the bad laws and the good, this takes some discernment, at least enough discernment to know what is being said or read. If we know the difference, it is because we live in grace. Had you understood what is posted you would have understood we all are living in grace, and again this is not license to sin. If you believe sin is dead because of living in grace, I am afraid you do not understand much. I believe people do not understand anything between Genesis and Malachi if they believe we are not to obey Yahweh, God.

Eze 20:25
Moreover also I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances wherein they should not live;


No.

Only a "living" law may be broken.

A "dead" law has no jurisdiction.


Nonetheless -- it is not that the law is dead -- but rather, that we are dead to the law ( Romans 7 ). ;)


( More later... :cool: Perhaps... :p Lord willing... :eek: )

:)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#8
I would not go there

"a true half of the truth church"

"a church ignoring what Jesus said to do church"

How about a TRUE BIBLE BASED CHURCH?

hint
there are three people in that church
I have NEVER seen a true Bible ollowing church with more than three people
Neither did PAul in the new testament
weird................................and wrong...........
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#9
No.
Only a "living" law may be broken.
A "dead" law has no jurisdiction.
Nonetheless -- it is not that the law is dead -- but rather, that we are dead to the law ( Romans 7 ). ;)
( More later... :cool: Perhaps... :p Lord willing... :eek: )
:)
And this where people stumble and fall. Jesus didn't say that people who hear his words will be judged by the law of Moses, but by his words.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:47-48

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19​
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#10
Here are a few questions to consider........

If God says to do this, or don't do that.......is that a Law? Yes or No..........if you answer Yes.......

Is Jesus God? God the Son? Yes or No...........if you answer Yes.............

If Jesus says to do this or don't do that.......is that a Law? Yes or No...........if you answer Yes.....

then I have to say that there are a whole bunch of folks who are not keeping His Law........a whole bunch.....

footwashing.jpg

John 13:1) 1 It was just before the festival of Pesach, and Yeshua knew that the time had come for him to pass from this world to the Father. Having loved his own people in the world, he loved them to the end. 2 They were at supper, and the Adversary had already put the desire to betray him into the heart of Y'hudah Ben-Shim`on from K'riot. 3 Yeshua was aware that the Father had put everything in his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God. 4 So he rose from the table, removed his outer garments and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 Then he poured some water into a basin and began to wash the feet of the talmidim and wipe them off with the towel wrapped around him. 6 He came to Shim`on Kefa, who said to him, "Lord! You are washing my feet?" 7 Yeshua answered him, "You don't understand yet what I am doing, but in time you will understand." 8 "No!" said Kefa, "You will never wash my feet!" Yeshua answered him, "If I don't wash you, you have no share with me." 9 "Lord," Shim`on Kefa replied, "not only my feet, but my hands and head too!" 10 Yeshua said to him, "A man who has had a bath doesn't need to wash, except his feet -- his body is already clean. And you people are clean, but not all of you." 11 (He knew who was betraying him; this is why he said, "Not all of you are clean.") 12 After he had washed their feet, taken back his clothes and returned to the table, he said to them, "Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You call me `Rabbi' and `Lord,' and you are right, because I am. 14 Now if I, the Lord and Rabbi, have washed your feet, you also should wash each other's feet. 15 For I have set you an example, so that you may do as I have done to you.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
6,529
113
#11
Any of the laws that conflict with the Word and the Commandments is bad. For instance, our Lord immediately demonstrated to some accusers they were no better than the woman accused of adultery when He said go ahead, he without sin, cast the first stone.

Yet it is the law to stone individuals for various infractions. It is a bad law telling sinners to kill sinners, after all vengeance is mine says our Elohim, and so is meting out judgment and justice vengeance. One may say it is not, but it is recompense for certain infractions.

I believe come judgment, many will be astonished, at first, just what is forgiven and what is revealed to be evil.

Judgment will be handed over to the saints, but not in this age.

One most glaring trait of many who come blindly saying the law is dead or we are free of the law is that they are the first to quote, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth thinking this is reasonable. Yeshua teaches strongly that whenever mercy is an option it is Christ-like to show mercy..... I could expound, but others as I am , with low tolerance to a lot of reading may wander off.

Yahweh bless all who forgive and always show mercy. May they also turn the other cheek and love their enemy. Loving your enemy involves a little common sense, pray for their souls, but not for what they do, and do not hold a grudge, though a good memory will avoid future conflicts.........
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
6,529
113
#12
That curse, of course, is punishment and death. That curse being destroyed for all who are saved by the Blood of the Lamb, providing they do not turn to wanton sin, no longer exists. This does not mean we have license to sin. Because sin is breaking the law, we are still expected to live by the laws although we will never be perfect until the work begun in us by God is finished for we perfect nothing. God does all the perfecting. Meanwhile, sorry warm and fuzzies, we are to obey the Father. To say the law is dead is the same as saying we may break it with impunity. This is a lie of the enemy.

I believe the above exerpt from the post, my post, to which you reply answers your question. If it does not, go back and read all of it. No where does it even imply we are not dead to the law. Please understand before attempting to refute truth, if you do, then you will save yourself much time.




No.

Only a "living" law may be broken.

A "dead" law has no jurisdiction.


Nonetheless -- it is not that the law is dead -- but rather, that we are dead to the law ( Romans 7 ). ;)


( More later... :cool: Perhaps... :p Lord willing... :eek: )

:)
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#13
I wonder why an entire generation of Christians have learned so much of the Lord, yet decide to blind their eyes to an entire set of teachings!! It was the same when Isaiah spoke, only the blindness is in the opposite direction. Today the church asks why they should look at how the world was before Christ when it is enough to learn how it is after Christ.

They are learning from men whose minds were full of the principles of God, eternal principles that are the ground work of understanding God. It is important to know how Christ added to these principles, but by refusing to take the basic knowledge of God seriously, by saying they aren't important because only the new is important, they aren't even understanding the new!

I read constantly of how all the additions to our understanding means that they were not additions at all, that all of God before is replaced, fulfilled in the sense that now that is done with, don't let it in your minds.

In the book of Daniel and the book of Revelations we are told what this kind of thinking leads to.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#14
Today, reading in the forum I came across the expression "a true New Testament Church."

I suppose there is such a thing today, but I hope all who call on the name of Yeshua, Jesus, are versed enough in the history of our progress from the time our Lord walked His earth to know the original converts to the faith of Abraham did not have a New Testament, and it is probably a good thing for them they did not.

How could you have a New Testament before Christ died?

And why would the NT not be good for anyone?



Because sin is breaking the law, we are still expected to live by the laws although we will never be perfect until the work begun in us by God is finished for we perfect nothing. God does all the perfecting. Meanwhile, sorry warm and fuzzies, we are to obey the Father. To say the law is dead is the same as saying we may break it with impunity. This is a lie of the enemy.
.
The NT states that we are dead. . .to the law, not that the law is dead.


 
Last edited:
K

Karraster

Guest
#15
I wonder why an entire generation of Christians have learned so much of the Lord, yet decide to blind their eyes to an entire set of teachings!! It was the same when Isaiah spoke, only the blindness is in the opposite direction. Today the church asks why they should look at how the world was before Christ when it is enough to learn how it is after Christ.

They are learning from men whose minds were full of the principles of God, eternal principles that are the ground work of understanding God. It is important to know how Christ added to these principles, but by refusing to take the basic knowledge of God seriously, by saying they aren't important because only the new is important, they aren't even understanding the new!

I read constantly of how all the additions to our understanding means that they were not additions at all, that all of God before is replaced, fulfilled in the sense that now that is done with, don't let it in your minds.

In the book of Daniel and the book of Revelations we are told what this kind of thinking leads to.
I liken this "new testament only" concept to infatuation rather than real love. For one can be Infatuated and think their feelings run deep, but infatuation is not love at all. How can one develop a real and lasting love for the Father and Son without understanding?
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#16

How could you have a New Testament before Christ died?

And why would the NT not be good for anyone?



.
The NT states that we are dead. . .to the law, not that the law is dead.


Christ was "the promise", in the old testament. He who has an ear let him hear. Eve's generation hoped for a redeemer. New testament only is a shallow understanding of God's grace and love, it's like reading the last chapter in a novel, the icing on the cake with no cake.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#17
Christ was "the promise", in the old testament. He who has an ear let him hear. Eve's generation hoped for a redeemer. New testament only is a shallow understanding of God's grace and love, it's like reading the last chapter in a novel, the icing on the cake with no cake.
Ok, lemme see.............the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which we would not have without the New Testament, is "ONLY A SHALLOW UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S GRACE AND LOVE?

wow..............not for nothing, but I know someone who wants to disagree with you........let me introduce you.......

angry lion.jpg
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#18
Here are a few questions to consider........

If God says to do this, or don't do that.......is that a Law? Yes or No..........if you answer Yes.......

Is Jesus God? God the Son? Yes or No...........if you answer Yes.............

If Jesus says to do this or don't do that.......is that a Law? Yes or No...........if you answer Yes.....

then I have to say that there are a whole bunch of folks who are not keeping His Law........a whole bunch.....

View attachment 67020

John 13:1) 1 It was just before the festival of Pesach, and Yeshua knew that the time had come for him to pass from this world to the Father. Having loved his own people in the world, he loved them to the end. 2 They were at supper, and the Adversary had already put the desire to betray him into the heart of Y'hudah Ben-Shim`on from K'riot. 3 Yeshua was aware that the Father had put everything in his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God. 4 So he rose from the table, removed his outer garments and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 Then he poured some water into a basin and began to wash the feet of the talmidim and wipe them off with the towel wrapped around him. 6 He came to Shim`on Kefa, who said to him, "Lord! You are washing my feet?" 7 Yeshua answered him, "You don't understand yet what I am doing, but in time you will understand." 8 "No!" said Kefa, "You will never wash my feet!" Yeshua answered him, "If I don't wash you, you have no share with me." 9 "Lord," Shim`on Kefa replied, "not only my feet, but my hands and head too!" 10 Yeshua said to him, "A man who has had a bath doesn't need to wash, except his feet -- his body is already clean. And you people are clean, but not all of you." 11 (He knew who was betraying him; this is why he said, "Not all of you are clean.") 12 After he had washed their feet, taken back his clothes and returned to the table, he said to them, "Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You call me `Rabbi' and `Lord,' and you are right, because I am. 14 Now if I, the Lord and Rabbi, have washed your feet, you also should wash each other's feet. 15 For I have set you an example, so that you may do as I have done to you.

.........so, I'm just guessing here, but the Yes/NO questions were too hard to answer?..........
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#19
Ok, lemme see.............the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which we would not have without the New Testament, is "ONLY A SHALLOW UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S GRACE AND LOVE?

wow..............not for nothing, but I know someone who wants to disagree with you........let me introduce you.......

View attachment 67093
A picture of a Lion is supposed to scare me? That's a good example of shallow, and lack of understanding to the nth degree.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#20
A picture of a Lion is supposed to scare me? That's a good example of shallow, and lack of understanding to the nth degree.
No, it isn't suppose to "scare" you...........to JOG your memory..........and don't steel my anticdotal put downs......just saying....

It was more kind than just denouncing your comment as being asinine............(sigh, no good deed goes unpunished it seems)