Turning The Grace of God into Lasciviousness

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LT

Guest
#61
#61
well... I have read over the thread, and feel confident that I was sufficiently clear, but I will try to be even more clear in the future.

Phil 4:5 "Let your gentleness be known unto all"

If by 'double-tongued' you mean that I was extremely moderate and careful in choosing words, then you are correct.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#62
#62
ChristIsLord229 said:
Im not misunderstanding you, im calling you out for being double tongued and unclear to the other readers. Im saved, i understand the plan of salvation as its taught in romans and elsewhere. This is for the other guests of the site, they need clear speakers or else just get off here and read the bible. Thatd be the best thing. Im off work today thats why im putzing around here. Oh the sin of idleness, forums...
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You say that we are free to sin and by implication, as much as we desire. Yet, Scripture says that we need to be alert as to not be led astray. How are we led astray if not by sin. You say that we are free to sin, even that I was permitted to be a murderer and still make it to Heaven. Yet, a murderer does not have everlasting life in him.

I would suppose then that you are the one who is speaking with a double tongue. We cannot live contrary to God's will and still make it to Heaven. That, in and of itself, nullifies the purpose of the Shepherd, seeing that we do not need Him to lead us on the righteous path.

I am calling you out....
 
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ChristIsLord229

Senior Member
#63
Nov 10, 2013
266
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#63
God teaches eternal security. God also teaches that where sin abounds grace much more abounds. We are saved by grace not by works. So show me the verse that says if you sin too much you lose salvation, or if you sin too much you are not really saved?

Im defending grace, this site is attacking it.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#64
#64
I don't see the attacks you see. There are perhaps one or two who are mistaken about the process of salvation, but you have made a bit of a scene, and done so rudely.
Your zeal is coming across as anger.
 
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ChristIsLord229

Senior Member
#65
Nov 10, 2013
266
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#65
Ukorin said:
I don't see the attacks you see. There are perhaps one or two who are mistaken about the process of salvation, but you have made a bit of a scene, and done so rudely.
Your zeal is coming across as anger.
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Id like to know what kind of church you attend? Is it as watered down as this site?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#66
#66
ChristIsLord229 said:
God also teaches that where sin abounds grace much more abounds...So show me the verse that says if you sin too much you lose salvation, or if you sin too much you are not really saved?

Im defending grace, this site is attacking it.
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We, those in Christ, are to die to the flesh and become alive in Christ. But, you say that we do not have to die to the flesh:

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

You say that we can sin all we desire. You are leading people to death by sin when you state that we can walk two paths, although Scripture says that we can only have one master to lead us:

Rom 6:15-6 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?​

If a brother can sin unto death, then why are you telling people to sin all they desire because they will still make it to Heaven. You teach lawlessness which leads to an eternal punishment:

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.​

You are defending grace and that is good. But, don't lead others to death. Listen: works does not equal obedience. It is faith alone which saves, but without obedience to the Shepherd, we can sin unto death.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#68
#68
If Christ is your Lord, then obedience to that Master is required and I am sure your Lord will not desire you to sin.

How can one be a servant if they will not hearken unto their Master (Lord)?

If we call Christ our Lord, then let us also hearken unto Him....
 
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BradC

Guest
#69
#69
ChristIsLord229 said:
God teaches eternal security. God also teaches that where sin abounds grace much more abounds. We are saved by grace not by works. So show me the verse that says if you sin too much you lose salvation, or if you sin too much you are not really saved?

Im defending grace, this site is attacking it.
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Those are excellent points. Grace that is turned onto lasciviousness has to do with those who come onto a local assembly and discredit the message of grace and that can be compared to a spirit of anarchy. What happens often is when those who discredit grace they will lean on and toward a system of works that involve a form of righteousness that eliminates or restricts the administration of grace, turning grace into the lascivious practice of asceticism and with the Jews it was circumcision. This is a type of anarchy that leavens the faith of the believer to orient him toward a system of righteousness apart from grace. These individuals that do this in the local church must be taught and dealt with if they persist. When dealing with them they will charge others of not being loving and judgmental and will accuse the leadership of being soft on sin and promoting licentious behavior.
 
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john832

Senior Member
#70
May 31, 2013
11,365
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#70
ChristIsLord229 said:
God teaches eternal security. God also teaches that where sin abounds grace much more abounds. We are saved by grace not by works. So show me the verse that says if you sin too much you lose salvation, or if you sin too much you are not really saved?

Im defending grace, this site is attacking it.
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Uh, your entire post is refuted in one passage...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You are defending license.
 
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ChristIsLord229

Senior Member
#71
Nov 10, 2013
266
1
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#71
john832 said:
Uh, your entire post is refuted in one passage...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You are defending license.
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So after being saved, if you are i have no idea i doubt it, you have never told a lie? Or put something wicked before your eyes? Or broke a civil law? Or missed church? Lusted in your mind?

Well if you did i guess you lost your salvation...

The chapter and book is to the hebrews, who dont believe on christ. Hes talking about the sin of rejecting christ.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#72
#72
ChristIsLord229 said:
So after being saved, if you are i have no idea i doubt it, you have never told a lie? Or put something wicked before your eyes? Or broke a civil law? Or missed church? Lusted in your mind?

Well if you did i guess you lost your salvation...

The chapter and book is to the hebrews, who dont believe on christ. Hes talking about the sin of rejecting christ.
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You preach that we can habitually live in sin as a lifestyle, but Hebrews 10:26 says otherwise.

No one is arguing that we cannot sin after being saved, we are saying that we cannot live a life of sin and still make it to Heaven.

Although you say that I can be a murdering Christian and still go to Heaven, Hebrew 10:27 tells me that I have nothing to look forward to except judgment and fiery indignation if I live a sinning life. Why preach that I can live a lie and still go to Heaven?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#73
#73
cfultz3 said:
We, those in Christ, are to die to the flesh and become alive in Christ. But, you say that we do not have to die to the flesh:

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

You say that we can sin all we desire. You are leading people to death by sin when you state that we can walk two paths, although Scripture says that we can only have one master to lead us:

Rom 6:15-6 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?​

If a brother can sin unto death, then why are you telling people to sin all they desire because they will still make it to Heaven. You teach lawlessness which leads to an eternal punishment:

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.​

You are defending grace and that is good. But, don't lead others to death. Listen: works does not equal obedience. It is faith alone which saves, but without obedience to the Shepherd, we can sin unto death.
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Have you read this, ChistisLord?
 
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ChristIsLord229

Senior Member
#74
Nov 10, 2013
266
1
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#74
john832 said:
Uh, your entire post is refuted in one passage...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You are defending license.
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Read the rest of the chapter, hes saying if you have done the will of god, believing on christ, that you might receive the promise, of salvation.

Study more, limit grace leas
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#75
#75
ChristIsLord229 said:
Read the rest of the chapter, hes saying if you have done the will of god, believing on christ, that you might receive the promise, of salvation.

Study more, limit grace leas
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But, you preach that we can live as sinful as we desire, that we do not have to live a life for God...then you summarize Hebrews 10 as.....IF you have done the WILL of God....Do you see something wrong with this? Teaching we can sin all we want but yet speaking about the will of God as though it is to be done.....Perhaps, you really do not mean to say that we can live in sin and still make it to Heaven?
 
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ChristIsLord229

Senior Member
#76
Nov 10, 2013
266
1
0
#76
Listen, a person can be saved, wake up every day, watch 8 hrs of tv till they die which is a sin, and still go to heaven. You can get drunk everyday til you die, and go to heaven.

Hey, trying murdering someone everyday, see how far you get. I dont think itll be very far.

The sins are paid for, christ took upon all sin. If thats true how can our sins count against us in heaven? They dont. Again i dont recommend going on a sin spree but the fact is all sin is paid for.

I encourage wha the bible teaches about living holy, set apart from the world. Going to church, studying the word, winning souls and spreading the gospel.

You live how you want, you all sound like babes in christ because you have no idea about how strong Gods grace is. Hey, im a sinner! Oh no, have i lost my salvation because i lied to someone? If thats the case, God is lying about his grace and eternal security til the day of redemption.
 
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ChristIsLord229

Senior Member
#77
Nov 10, 2013
266
1
0
#77
If you desire to live a sinless selfish life go ahead. I wouldnt. But the fact is sin does not cause you to lose salvation.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#79
#79
ChristIsLord229 said:
If you desire to live a sinless selfish life go ahead. I wouldnt. But the fact is sin does not cause you to lose salvation.
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Did you read this before you came to the conclusion that sin does not cause one to lose salvation:

cfultz3 said:

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​


Rom 6:15-6 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?​


1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.​
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I agree that we can fall into sin, but we cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin.

How could God judge the wicked for their deeds and yet, permit it for us:

Rom 3:5-7 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?​

Shall we sin so that God's grace may abound? God forbid. Shall we not be judged as sinners than?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#80
#80
ChristIsLord229 said:
You live how you want....
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That is what Adam and Even thought too and was expelled from God's personal presence.

If we can live as we want, then what purpose does the administration of the Spirit have in leading us to the Light? Why even repent? Why even have a broken and contrite heart? Why even have God's moral laws? Why even call Christ Lord (Master)? Why even be called servants of Christ? Why even have the Judgment of deeds? Why even have Christ die upon the Cross to save us from being damned because our actions?

Perhaps, you mean to say that we can fall sometimes, but that we cannot continue to walk contrary to the Shepherd's lead?
 
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