Amos is handy

[eternally-gratefull]

You say, "their rejection of him caused God to take it away (as promised) and give it to the gentiles..." Is this interpretation not the Replacement type theology you condemn?

no, the replacement theology is that God is done with the jews, and replaced them with the church, and the promises God made to them now belong to the church.

He did not take away his promise, it still belongs to them, They just do not possess it because of their unbelief.

it is like I give a hcild a car as a gift. and give them requirements to be able to use it. But it will not belong to the person who is driving it at that time. it still belongs to my son.

if they do not hold up to their end, it is still theres, but I will let someone else use it. but if they repent, and start to obey all the rules. i will give it back to them..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Would this perhaps, explain why Christianity is Eurocentric, why Jesus and the New Covenant are woven into the culture of Western and related Europeans only?

nah, Alot of the first churches were in what we call modern day turkey. which is mostly muslim.

rome (Europe) for the most part rejected christ, and persecuted it until the ceasar perverted, paganized it and made it his own brand in the 300's.

 

[john832]

Actually Ancient Israel was called the church of God, to be his representative on earth. To prove to the world that God is the one and only God.

There rejection of him caused God to take it away (as prophesied) and give it to the gentiles..

Israel was not supposed to keep the oracles of God to herself. she was supposed to give it to the gentiles so they could come to him (some, Like Daniel and others, did. But most always kept it to themselves) that was their sin.

And I believe Israel will be given this commission once again in the Millenium. This time they will fulfill it.

 

[Historicist]

no I do not. Because not all jews are in the land yet. so we can not even identify them to be honest.

all I have to do is believe God when he says, and I post again.

Lev 26:[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;for I am the Lord their God.

That God will keep his promise, and not destroy them off the face of the earth as a nation of people. even when they are not a nation as we think of a nation.

God, through Jeremiah says He would "make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31). The writer of Hebrews, in chapter 8:8, repeats this verbatim, saying that this, the New Covenant, was in effect 2000 years ago (and, obviously, ever since). Does this not tell us that latter day Israel would be found, primarily, among the people of historic Christianity?

 

[john832]

nah, Alot of the first churches were in what we call modern day turkey. which is mostly muslim.

rome (Europe) for the most part rejected christ, and persecuted it until the ceasar perverted, paganized it and made it his own brand in the 300's.

Very accurate.

 

[john832]

no, the replacement theology is that God is done with the jews, and replaced them with the church, and the promises God made to them now belong to the church.

He did not take away his promise, it still belongs to them, They just do not possess it because of their unbelief.

it is like I give a hcild a car as a gift. and give them requirements to be able to use it. But it will not belong to the person who is driving it at that time. it still belongs to my son.

if they do not hold up to their end, it is still theres, but I will let someone else use it. but if they repent, and start to obey all the rules. i will give it back to them..

Again, I believe this happens in the Millenium. Israel will lead the Gentiles into the Kingdom of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God, through Jeremiah says He would "make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31). The writer of Hebrews, in chapter 8:8, repeats this verbatim, saying that this, the New Covenant, was in effect 2000 years ago (and, obviously, ever since). Does this not tell us that latter day Israel would be found, primarily, among the people of historic Christianity?

Nah.

Because we are told a few things about the latter days.

1. Israel will be dispersed to all the nations of the world (christian or not)
2. Isreal will be severely persecuted and treated badly
3. That when Christ returns (after they have repented and come to him) He will not only restor them, he will punish the nations who have treated her badly while she was under their care..

So if this is primarily a christian nation treating israel badly. I would doubt it is christian number one. But why would God destroy them as punishment?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, I believe this happens in the Millenium. Israel will lead the Gentiles into the Kingdom of God.

Well I believe God will lead Israel and gentiles into this kingdom.

His restoration of Israel and leading them will do what he originally intended to do. Show the world. that his blessings of a nation he chose, proves he is God. And will cause them to follow him, and the blessings will be spread throughout the world.

it is led by Christ though.

 

[Historicist]

nah, Alot of the first churches were in what we call modern day turkey. which is mostly muslim.

rome (Europe) for the most part rejected christ, and persecuted it until the ceasar perverted, paganized it and made it his own brand in the 300's.

Yes, a lot of the of the early churches were in the area of modern day Turkey, but this changed when the racial complexion of that area evolved into the non-Israelitish element it is today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And I believe Israel will be given this commission once again in the Millenium. This time they will fulfill it.

yep. after around 2000 years of not fulfilling it, (from abraham to Christ) and up to 2000 years as of today and not even being given the opportunity. they will finally fulfill their origional purpose..lol

 

[john832]

Nah.

Because we are told a few things about the latter days.

1. Israel will be dispersed to all the nations of the world (christian or not)
2. Isreal will be severely persecuted and treated badly
3. That when Christ returns (after they have repented and come to him) He will not only restor them, he will punish the nations who have treated her badly while she was under their care..

So if this is primarily a christian nation treating israel badly. I would doubt it is christian number one. But why would God destroy them as punishment?

Not only that but God will reunite the 12 tribes and Levi into one nation with David as their king and the Apostles each ruling over a tribe...

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, a lot of the of the early churches were in the area of modern day Turkey, but this changed when the racial complexion of that area evolved into the non-Israelitish element it is today.

the only thing which changed in europe is the paganisation of christianity, and the enforcement that all people follow their perverted form for fear of death for close to 1500 years. That is what really made what you call the western Christianity.

However, it does not resemble the church of the 1st century. far from it.

 

[Historicist]

Nah.

Because we are told a few things about the latter days.

1. Israel will be dispersed to all the nations of the world (christian or not)
2. Isreal will be severely persecuted and treated badly
3. That when Christ returns (after they have repented and come to him) He will not only restor them, he will punish the nations who have treated her badly while she was under their care..

So if this is primarily a christian nation treating israel badly. I would doubt it is christian number one. But why would God destroy them as punishment?

Corrections:

1. Israel (both houses) was dispersed, scattered abroad in the seventh and sixth century BC Assyrian and Babylonian invasions and deportations. Most of them did not, and would not return. Ezra and Nehemiah record the "remnant" of Judah, those which did return as 42,000. This portion only of Israel were "the Jews," those who populated Palestine at the time of Christ. The greater portion, the millions of non-Jew Israelites ("lost sheep of the house of Israel"), until reappearing as "Gentiles" in the first century, are little mentioned in the Bible narrative.
2. I do not know what your references would be for this.
3. Scripture tells us that the process of restoring divorced cast off Israel (the Diaspora) back to God began with the New Covenant 2000 years ago. It is not therefore as in the futurist interpretation you hold.

The bottom line is that Israel today (literal genetic Israel) numbers in the hundreds of millions of people ("as the sand of the sea and stars of the sky"), most of whom, if religious, are professing Christians. You, in all probability, are one of them, but for a variety of reasons are blinded to this.

 

[Historicist]

the only thing which changed in europe is the paganisation of christianity, and the enforcement that all people follow their perverted form for fear of death for close to 1500 years. That is what really made what you call the western Christianity.

However, it does not resemble the church of the 1st century. far from it.

What you refer to was prophesied (of Israel) in the book of Revelation. Imperial Rome was the sixth beast system and papal Rome the seventh. The Reformation, the Protestant Reformation, was the beginning of the end of Israel's domination by the seventh beast system. The bottom line is that the nucleus of the church, from its inception, has been Israeltish. And the church, for most of history, has been subject to the beast systems prophesied in Revelation. It's called tribulation, and it's not future only, it's been occurring for centuries.

 

[crossnote]

What you refer to was prophesied (of Israel) in the book of Revelation. Imperial Rome was the sixth beast system and papal Rome the seventh. The Reformation, the Protestant Reformation, was the beginning of the end of Israel's domination by the seventh beast system. The bottom line is that the nucleus of the church, from its inception, has been Israeltish. And the church, for most of history, has been subject to the beast systems prophesied in Revelation. It's called tribulation, and it's not future only, it's been occurring for centuries.

YEah right, prophetic interpretation of history can always be adjusted to be seemingly 20/20.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Corrections:

1. Israel (both houses) was dispersed, scattered abroad in the seventh and sixth century BC Assyrian and Babylonian invasions and deportations. Most of them did not, and would not return. Ezra and Nehemiah record the "remnant" of Judah, those which did return as 42,000. This portion only of Israel were "the Jews," those who populated Palestine at the time of Christ. The greater portion, the millions of non-Jew Israelites ("lost sheep of the house of Israel"), until reappearing as "Gentiles" in the first century, are little mentioned in the Bible narrative.

correction.

A jew is the name of the people who lived in Judah, It consisted of the tribes of Judah, Dan and the levites who were assigned to them as priests.

However, you are correct about the dispersion.

2. I do not know what your references would be for this.

as for what? the return and punishing the nations who treated them badly?

A few places:

Jer 30: [SUP]11 [/SUP]For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

Israel is in the corrective phase now. and has been since the dates you mentioned above.

Also found here:

Joel 3: “[SUP][a][/SUP]For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of [SUP][b][/SUP]Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“They have also cast lots for My people,
[SUP][c][/SUP]Traded a boy for a harlot
And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.

There is another one which specifically states it. But I can not remember where it is. I will look for it and get back to you.

3. Scripture tells us that the process of restoring divorced cast off Israel (the Diaspora) back to God began with the New Covenant 2000 years ago. It is not therefore as in the futurist interpretation you hold.

Not true. It is actually in 70 AD when th enation of israel was first comp0letely dispersed. At no time in the previous dispersions were the people taken completely from her land. Even during the babylonian captivity. Most jews continued to live as slaves in her land. So it was not the beginning of the restoration, it was the completion of the dispersion.

The bottom line is that Israel today (literal genetic Israel) numbers in the hundreds of millions of people ("as the sand of the sea and stars of the sky"), most of whom, if religious, are professing Christians. You, in all probability, are one of them, but for a variety of reasons are blinded to this.

No, I am not one of them. I am a gentile by the flesh, but a Israelite by the spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What you refer to was prophesied (of Israel) in the book of Revelation. Imperial Rome was the sixth beast system and papal Rome the seventh. The Reformation, the Protestant Reformation, was the beginning of the end of Israel's domination by the seventh beast system. The bottom line is that the nucleus of the church, from its inception, has been Israeltish. And the church, for most of history, has been subject to the beast systems prophesied in Revelation. It's called tribulation, and it's not future only, it's been occurring for centuries.

um. papal rome is not the sixth or seventh, if anything, papal rom is babylon (the false religious system and the harlot.)

the 4th beast fell. the renewed or 5th beast of iron and clay has yet to be formed.

 

[john832]

correction.

A jew is the name of the people who lived in Judah, It consisted of the tribes of Judah, Dan and the levites who were assigned to them as priests.

Didn't you mean Benjamin instead of Dan?

However, you are correct about the dispersion.



as for what? the return and punishing the nations who treated them badly?

A few places:

Jer 30: [SUP]11 [/SUP]For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

Israel is in the corrective phase now. and has been since the dates you mentioned above.

Also found here:

Joel 3: “[SUP][a][/SUP]For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of [SUP][b][/SUP]Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“They have also cast lots for My people,
[SUP][c][/SUP]Traded a boy for a harlot
And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.

There is another one which specifically states it. But I can not remember where it is. I will look for it and get back to you.

Not true. It is actually in 70 AD when th enation of israel was first comp0letely dispersed. At no time in the previous dispersions were the people taken completely from her land. Even during the babylonian captivity. Most jews continued to live as slaves in her land. So it was not the beginning of the restoration, it was the completion of the dispersion.

Severe correction...

Eze 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.
Eze 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.
Eze 5:3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.
Eze 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

Eze 5:11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.
Eze 5:12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
Eze 5:13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.
Eze 5:14 Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by.

Eze 6:2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,
Eze 6:3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.
Eze 6:4 And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.
Eze 6:5 And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.
Eze 6:6 In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.
Eze 6:7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 6:8 Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

Mountains here being symbolic of nations.

Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Apparently only 10% of the total population survive. Yet God does bring Israel back...

Isa 35:8 A highway shall be there, and a road, And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it, But it shall be for others. Whoever walks the road, although a fool, Shall not go astray.
Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, Nor shall any ravenous beast go up on it; It shall not be found there. But the redeemed shall walk there,
Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, And come to Zion with singing, With everlasting joy on their heads. They shall obtain joy and gladness, And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Didn't you mean Benjamin instead of Dan?

yes thank you

Severe correction...

Not sure what you were trying to correct

 

[Historicist]

um. papal rome is not the sixth or seventh, if anything, papal rom is babylon (the false religious system and the harlot.)

the 4th beast fell. the renewed or 5th beast of iron and clay has yet to be formed.

You are using the Futurist interpretation, that which was unknown to early church and Protestant reformers.