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Linda70

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Why is Joseph sin? I believe the virginity was the key. But that does not mean that Joseph wasn't His father. It just means they didn't have intercourse. Why would Joseph's lineage even be listen if Joseph wasn't involved?
Timeline,

In addition to what crossnote posted (#290), what you are saying here is NOT what God says in His Word:

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Joseph's lineage as the "son of David" was addressed in Matthew 1:20. The fact that there was NO human factor involved in the conception of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is also found in Matthew 1:20 and in Luke 1:35. Jesus Christ is the virgin born "seed of the woman" (Genesis 3:15). Why are you questioning God's Holy Word by "inserting your human "logic"?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I see the HRM as replacement theology in reverse. Instead of the Church replacing Israel (as RT holds), they are into Israel replacing the Church! Both groups fall into the same mistake of distinguishing the Church from Israel.
Ewww, big mistake here. The last line should end ''of failing to distinguish the Church from Israel. I'm surprised no one called me on that.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Timeline,

In addition to what crossnote posted (#290), what you are saying here is NOT what God says in His Word:

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Joseph's lineage as the "son of David" was addressed in Matthew 1:20. The fact that there was NO human factor involved in the conception of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is also found in Matthew 1:20 and in Luke 1:35. Jesus Christ is the virgin born "seed of the woman" (Genesis 3:15). Why are you questioning God's Holy Word by "inserting your human "logic"?
I expect this to be my last post on this subject. I do not see the point in writing out a whole lineage just to make it pointless at the very end. This does not make sense to me at all. I believe that the Holy Spirit (of the Holy Spirit) took the seed from Joseph (son of David) and put the seed in Mary. If I am wrong I am wrong. If you have further points I will try to come back and read them.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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In the sense that God sees all as His creation, with equal love for all when we turn to Him, we are all the same. In the sense that God gave one people a special mission for everyone and gives that nation a special blessing because of that, one nation is specially blessed.
...and chosen
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.[SUP]23 [/SUP]When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli,Engaged, but no sex. Joseph was the father without having had intercourse. How do you suppose that the Holy Spirit placed the seed in Mary? Much the same way that it was obtained from Joseph!
You're on your own buddy, I tried.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Which leaves you with no apostolic interpretation by which to measure your personal interpretation.

But we do have much apostolic doctrine which disagrees with its contra-NT design.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.
Because the Apostles are dealing mainly with the Church
Not so. . .

The NT deals with
the faith of the OT saints (Heb 11),
the OT promises to Abraham (Gal 3-4),
the change of the OT priesthood (Heb 7:11),
the change of the OT law (Heb 7:12),
the setting aside of the OT Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19),
the obsolescence of the OT covenant (Heb 8:13),
etc., etc., etc.
The NT is covered over in dealings with the OT.

something never prophecied in the OT,
Not so. . .

That God's people would be among all the nations, and not just in Israel
was repeatedly prophesied by Isa (42:6, 49:6, 51:4) and Jer (12:16).
And it was repeatedly foretold by God (Ge 12:3, 15:5, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14).

but was a mystery hidden,
A mystery hidden which includes
the hardening (blinding) of the majority of Jews (Ro 11:25),
God's irrevocable call and gifts to the Jews being fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 9:27, 11:5),
God's inclusion in the new covenant of all Jews who believe in Christ Jesus (Ro 11:23).

The mystery hidden was likewise about the Jews.


does that mean the Apostles were contra OT design.
The apostles were contra-NT design, which is the problem with this Steven Spielberg scheme presented here.

Your logic is lacking.
There is a much greater lack here than logic.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.
 
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Linda70

Guest
I expect this to be my last post on this subject. I do not see the point in writing out a whole lineage just to make it pointless at the very end. This does not make sense to me at all. I believe that the Holy Spirit (of the Holy Spirit) took the seed from Joseph (son of David) and put the seed in Mary. If I am wrong I am wrong. If you have further points I will try to come back and read them.
You are wrong...If Jesus was born of Joseph's "seed" then He would not be "sinless" and Jesus would not be God, and He would NOT be your Savior (or anybody else's Savior who believes the way you do).

Since "by Him [that is by Christ, the Word of God] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth" (Colossians 1:16), He must have created the very body in which He would dwell when He "was made flesh." This body, however, could not be a body produced by the normal process of human reproduction, for it must be a body unmarred either by inherent sin spiritually or by inherited genetic defects physically or mentally.

It would necessarily have to be a perfect body, a body like that of the first man He had created long ago in the beautiful garden of Eden. He would, in fact, come to be called "the last Adam" (I Corinthians 15:45), since there would never be another man created as that "first Adam" had been.

There would be one important difference, however. The first Adam was created and made as a full-grown man, but the second must be "in all things . . . made like unto His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17). From conception to death, He must be "in all points . . . like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). In particular, His blood must be "precious blood . . . as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (I Peter 1:19), for that blood must be "offered . . . without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14).

Thus the body of the second Adam must be formed directly by God and placed in a virgin's womb. This had been the very first promise made after the first Adam brought sin and death into the world. Speaking of "the woman, and . . . her seed," God said that He "shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15). This prophecy was addressed to Satan, whose lie had elicited Eve's sin. This wonderful body would not grow from a man's seed, as in every other human birth, nor would it grow from a woman's egg, for in either case a sin-carrying and mutation-carrying embryo would necessarily result. It must instead be a seed specially formed by the Creator Himself, then planted in the virgin's womb, where it forthwith would become His "tabernacle" for thirty-three years as He lived on His planet Earth among those He had come to save.

"Lo, I come," He would later promise through David (Psalm 40:7). Through Isaiah He said: "(The) virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son," and that babe would also be "the mighty God, the everlasting Father" (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6). Still later, another great prophet could anticipate that "The LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man" (Jeremiah 31:22).

Note that the "new thing" in the chosen woman must be "created." When the time came the angel assured young Mary that "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

Then, "when He cometh into the world, He saith, . . . a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5). Most significantly, He used the same word "prepared" (Greek, katartizo), which the writer of Hebrews also then would use when he testified that "the worlds were framed by the Word of God" (Hebrews 11:3), recognizing that the same living Word who had framed the worlds had also framed His own human body! And in that tiny cell in Mary's womb resided all the information not only for His own growth into manhood, but also for the creation, preservation, and redemption of the whole creation. It was His by right of creation and soon would be doubly His by right of redemption
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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Not so. . . The NT deals with the faith of the OT saints (Heb 11),the OT promises to Abraham (Gal 3-4), the change of the OT priesthood (Heb 7:11), the change of the OT law (Heb 7:12), the setting aside of the OT Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19),the obsolescence of the OT covenant (Heb 8:13),etc., etc., etc.The NT is covered over in dealings with the OT. Not so. . . That God's people would be among all the nations, and not just in Israel was repeatedly prophesied by Isa (42:6, 49:6, 51:4) and Jer (12:16). And it was repeatedly foretold by God (Ge 12:3, 15:5, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14). A mystery hidden which includes the hardening (blinding) of the majority of Jews (Ro 11:25), God's irrevocable call and gifts to the Jews being fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 9:27, 11:5), God's inclusion in the new covenant of all Jews who believe in Christ Jesus (Ro 11:23).The mystery hidden was likewise about the Jews. The apostles were contra-NT design, which is the problem with this Steven Spielberg scheme presented here.There is a much greater lack here than logic.And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.
Purely a strawman...
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Not so. . . The NT deals with the faith of the OT saints (Heb 11),
the OT promises to Abraham (Gal 3-4),
the change of the OT priesthood (Heb 7:11),
the change of the OT law (Heb 7:12),
the setting aside of the OT Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19),
the obsolescence of the OT covenant (Heb 8:13),etc., etc., etc.

The NT is covered over in dealings with the OT.

Not so. . . That God's people would be among all the nations, and not just in Israel
was repeatedly prophesied by Isa (42:6, 49:6, 51:4) and Jer (12:16).
And it was repeatedly foretold by God (Ge 12:3, 15:5, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14).

A mystery hidden which includes
the hardening (blinding) of the majority of Jews (Ro 11:25),
God's irrevocable call and gifts to the Jews being fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 9:27, 11:5),
God's inclusion in the new covenant of all Jews who believe in Christ Jesus (Ro 11:23).

The mystery hidden was likewise about the Jews.

The apostles were not concerned only with the church.


The apostles were contra-NT design, which is the problem with this Steven Spielberg scheme presented here.

There is a much greater lack here than logic.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic
Purely a strawman...
Non-responsive.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.
 
Last edited:
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Elin said:
Not so. . . The NT deals with the faith of the OT saints (Heb 11),
the OT promises to Abraham (Gal 3-4),
the change of the OT priesthood (Heb 7:11),
the change of the OT law (Heb 7:12),
the setting aside of the OT Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19),
the obsolescence of the OT covenant (Heb 8:13),etc., etc., etc.

Apostolic teaching is covered over in dealings with the OT.

And nowhere is this grand scheme regarding Israel presented by them.


Not so. . . That God's people would be among all the nations, and not just in Israel
was repeatedly prophesied by Isa (42:6, 49:6, 51:4) and Jer (12:16).
And it was repeatedly foretold by God (Ge 12:3, 15:5, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4, 28:14).

The inclusion of the Gentiles in the people of God was not new to the NT.

A mystery hidden which includes
the hardening (blinding) of the majority of Jews (Ro 11:25),
God's irrevocable call and gifts to the Jews being fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 9:27, 11:5),
God's inclusion in the new covenant of all Jews who believe in Christ Jesus (Ro 11:23).

The mystery hidden was likewise about the Jews.

The NT record shows that the apostles were concerned with more than just the church.


The apostles were contra-NT design, which is the problem with this Steven Spielberg scheme presented here.

There is a much greater lack here than logic.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.
Purely a strawman...
Non-responsive.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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This rather long but an interesting read regarding Jesus' lineage:

From James Tabor - Dr. James Tabor is Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte where he is professor of Christian origins and ancient Judaism:

So one obvious question is how was Jesus a “son of David”? What do we know of his lineage that might support this claim that he was a part of the royal family of David?

Luke and Matthew give Jesus no human father yet they give different genealogical accounts of his ancestry. Genealogies, or what many Bible readers remember as the lists of “begats,” do not usually make gripping reading, but Jesus’ genealogies are full of surprises.

Matthew begins his book with this genealogy: “Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Joseph,” and so forth. Since Matthew is the first book of the New Testament, more than a few eager Bible readers have had good intentions dampened by this technical beginning. But let’s look again. Matthew lists forty names, all the way from Abraham, who lived a thousand years before David, through David, and down to Joseph, husband of Mary. But there are two surprises.

Any standard Jewish genealogy at the time was based solely on the male lineage, which was of primary importance. One’s father was the significant factor in the cultural world in which Jesus was born. Yet in Matthew we find four women mentioned, connected to four of the forty male names listed. This is completely irregular and unexpected. Luke records:

Judah fathered Perez and Zerah from Tamar (v.3)

Salmon fathered Boaz from Rahab (v. 5)

Boaz fathered Obed from Ruth (v. 5)

David fathered Solomon from Uriah’s wife (v. 5)

These are all women’s names, or in the case of Uriah’s wife, an unnamed woman.....

At the end of the list, the very last name in the very last line, the other shoe drops. Matthew surely intends to startle, catching the reader unawares. He writes:

Jacob fathered Joseph, the husband of Mary;

from her was fathered Jesus called Christ.

What one would expect in any standard male genealogy would be:

Jacob fathered Joseph;

Joseph fathered Jesus, called the Christ. {- - THAT WOULD BE WRONG! I will clarify why HE is called Son of Joseph.}

Matthew uses the verb “fathered” or “begot” (Greek gennao) thirty-nine times in the active voice with a masculine subject. But when he comes to Joseph he makes an important shift. He uses the same verb in the passive voice with a feminine object: from her was fathered Jesus. So a fifth woman unexpectedly slips into the list: Mary herself….


But there is yet another remarkable feature of this lineage of Joseph that is vital to the story and should not be missed. Joseph’s branch of David’s family, even though it had supplied all the ancient kings of Judah, had been put under a ban or curse by the prophet Jeremiah. In those last dark days just before the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC, Jeremiah had made a shocking declaration about Jechoniah, the final reigning king of David’s line: “Write this man down as stripped . . . for none of his seed shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling in Judah again” (Jeremiah 22:30).[iv] Joseph was a direct descendant of this ill-reputed Jechoniah (Matt 1:11-12).[v]

In effect, it was as if Jeremiah was declaring the covenant that God made with David null and void. At least it might appear that way. Psalm 89, written in the aftermath of these developments, laments: “You have renounced the covenant with your servant; you have defiled his crown in the dust” (Psalm 89:39). Or so it seemed. After all Jechoniah was the last Jewish king of the royal family of David to occupy the throne in the land of Israel. Joseph was of this same line, but as the legal father of Jesus, rather than the biological father, Joseph’s ancestry did not disqualify Jesus’ potential claim to the throne if Jesus could claim descent from David through another branch of the Davidic lineage. But how many “branches” of the Davidic family were there?

Luke’s genealogy provides us with the missing key to understand how Jesus could claim Davidic descent with no biological connection to his adoptive father Joseph. Luke records his genealogy of Jesus in his third chapter. Jesus was 30 years old and had just been baptized by John. Whereas Matthew begins with Abraham and follows the line down to Joseph, Jesus’ adoptive father, Luke begins with Jesus and works backward—all the way back to Adam! Rather than forty names, as in Matthew, we have seventy-six. There are three striking features in this genealogy.

First, it begins with a surprising qualification. Literally translated it says: “And Jesus was about thirty years [old] when he began, being a son as was supposed of Joseph, of Heli (Luke 3:23).” The Greek is quite terse, but what jumps off the page is the phrase “as was supposed.”[vi] Luke is telling his readers two things: that Joseph was only the “supposed” or “legal” father of Jesus and that Jesus had a grandfather named Heli. According to Matthew Joseph’s father was named Jacob. So who was Heli? The most obvious solution is that he was Mary’s father.[vii] One seldom hears anything about the grandparents of Jesus, but Jesus had two grandfathers, one from Joseph and the other from Mary. Two grandfathers mean two separate family trees. What we have in Luke 3:23-38 is the other side of Jesus’ family, traced through his actual bloodline from his mother Mary. The reason Mary is not named is that Luke abides by convention and includes only males in his list. Since Luke acknowledges no biological father for Jesus he begins with Joseph as a “stand-in” but qualifies things with the phrase “as was supposed.” A freely paraphrased translation would go like this: “And Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work, supposedly being a son of Joseph but actually being of the line of Heli.” If Mary’s parents were indeed named Joachim and Anna, as early Christian tradition holds, it is possible that Heli is short for the name Eliakim, which in turn is a form of the traditional name Joachim.

It is unlikely that Luke simply concocted such a detailed record. Jewish families were quite zealous about genealogical records—all the more so if one was descended from the line of David. Josephus, the Jewish historian of that period, traces his own priestly genealogy with obvious pride and mentions archival records that he had consulted.[viii] Julius Africanus, an early 3nd century Jewish-Christian writer who lived in Palestine reports that leading Jewish families kept private genealogical records, since Herod and his successors had sought to destroy those that were public. Africanus specifically notes the practice of keeping clandestine family genealogies as characteristic of Jesus’ descendants.[ix] Since the Davidic lineage of Jesus was so important to the early Christians it is likely that Luke had one of these records available to him.

Luke’s genealogy also reveals another important bit of information. Mary, like her husband Joseph, was of the lineage of King David—but with a vital difference. Her connection to David was not through the cursed lineage running back through Jechoniah to David’s son Solomon. Rather she could trace herself back through another of David’s sons, namely Nathan, the brother of Solomon (Luke 3:31). Nathan, like Solomon, was a son of David’s favored wife Bathsheba, but Nathan never occupied the throne and his genealogy accordingly became obscure. He is listed in the biblical record but no descendants are mentioned, in contrast to his brother Solomon (2 Chronicles 3:5). So, according to Luke, Jesus could claim a direct ancestry back to King David through his mother Mary as well. He did not have the “adoptive” claim through his legal father Joseph alone, but also that of David’s actual bloodline.

The name Nazareth, the town where Mary lived, comes from the Hebrew word netzer meaning “branch” or “shoot.”[x] One could loosely translate Nazareth as “Branch Town.” But why would a town have such a strange name? As we have seen, in the time of Jesus it was a tiny village. Its claim to fame was not size or economic prominence but something potentially even more significant. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, written before Jesus’ lifetime, we regularly find the future Messiah or King of Israel described as the “branch of David.”[xi] The term is taken from Isaiah 11 where the Messiah of David’s lineage is called a “Branch.” The term stuck. The later followers of Jesus were called Nazarenes or “Branchites.”[xii] The little village of Nazareth very likely got its name, or perhaps its nickname, because it was known as the place that members of the royal family had settled and were concentrated. It is no surprise that both Mary and Joseph lived there, as each represented different “branches” of the “Branch of David.” The gospels mention other “relatives” of the family that lived there (Mark 6:4). It is entirely possible that most of the inhabitants of “Branch Town” were members of the same extended “Branch” family. The family’s affinity for this area of Galilee continued for centuries. North of Sepphoris, about twelve miles from Nazareth, was a town called Kokhaba or “Star Town.” The term “Star,” like “Branch” is a coded term for the Messiah that is also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.[xiii] Both Nazareth and Kokhaba were noted well into the 2nd century AD as towns in which families related to Jesus, and thus part of the “royal family,” were concentrated.[xiv]

Finally, the names in Luke that run from King David down to Heli, Mary’s father, offer us some very interesting clues that further explain why this particular Davidic line was uniquely important. There are listed no fewer than six instances of the name we know as Matthew: Matthat, Mattathias (twice), Maath, Matthat, and Mattatha. What is striking is that the name Matthew was one invariably associated with a priestly not a kingly or royal lineage. One of Jesus’ twelve apostles was named Matthew, but he was also called Levi.[xv] Two of the six “Matthews” in Jesus’ lineage were sons of fathers named “Levi.” Josephus, the 1st century Jewish historian, records that his own father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and brother were all named Matthias, and they were all priests of the tribe of Levi from the distinguished priestly family of the Hashmoneans or Maccabees. Ancient Israel was divided into twelve tribes, descendents of the twelve sons of Jacob the grandson of Abraham. The priests of Israel had to be descendents of Aaron, brother of Moses, who was from the tribe of Levi. The kings had to be of the royal lineage of King David, who was of the tribe of Judah. These positions, King and Priest, gave the tribes of Judah and Levi special prominence. But why would there be so many priestly names in a Davidic dynasty?

Remember, when Mary became pregnant and left Nazareth to stay with Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptizer, Luke notes that they were relatives, though he does not say how (Luke 1:36). But he also records that Elizabeth and her husband Zechariah were of the priestly lineage (Luke 1:5). This is further confirmation of the link between Mary’s Davidic family and the priestly tribe of Levi.

It is inconceivable that such a heavy prevalence of Levite or priestly names would be part of Mary’s genealogy unless there was a significant influence from the tribe of Levi merging into this particular royal line of the tribe of Judah. What appears likely is that Mary was of mixed lineage. Luke only names the male line from David down to Mary. But the large number of priestly names indicates that there were likely important Levite women marrying into this Davidic line along the way. It is a pattern that goes all the way back to Aaron, brother of Moses, the very first Israelite priest. Aaron of the tribe of Levi married a princess of the tribe of Judah named Elisheva or Elizabeth (Exodus 6:23).

I think I can clear up the confusion. You have to know Hebrew and Jewish customs and Law about designating the heir to property, to pick up on this. Also know as far as the giving of the Birthright, it did not HAVE TO GO TO THE FIRSTBORN SON, though more often than not it did. So the Father (say his name was Isaac), if he was not happy with the lifestyle of all of his sons, he could even legally name a servant as his heir if he so chose, and immediately that servant would be given the TITLE "Son of Isaac", designating that he now had the birthright inheritance position and TITLE. So how does that apply to JESUS.

FIRST OF ALL, it is apparent that Joseph was already dead when Jesus went to the Cross, because Mary went home with JOHN that very same day. It was not uncommon, for the owner of property to wait and name the one he chose to give the Birthright to his property, while on his death bed. All it required to be legally binding, was verbal statement with two or three witnesses. So who did JOSEPH name as heir to his property? Keep in mind that no woman was allowed to own property in Israel, so MARY COULD NOT INHERIT THE PROPERTY.

While the Scriptures do not specifically say, there seems to be very strong evidence that Joseph gave the Birthright TITLE, "Son of Joseph" to Jesus, even though he was not a blood offspring of Joseph.

John 19:25-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple He loved standing there, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

THERE, in my opinion, is Jesus passing on the Birthright TITLE, Son of Joseph to John, so that John could legally use the property to take care of the added expenses of taking care of Mary. AND NOTICE, HE made sure there were the required two or three witnesses, to make that inheritance legally binding. So why did Jesus not name one of his half brothers as the heir? Most likely because they had not yet come to believe in HIM as Messiah and LORD.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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You are wrong...If Jesus was born of Joseph's "seed" then He would not be "sinless" and Jesus would not be God, and He would NOT be your Savior (or anybody else's Savior who believes the way you do).
Again, I do not believe that they had sex. I do not understand why this is so difficult to understand.
 
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Linda70

Guest
Again, I do not believe that they had sex. I do not understand why this is so difficult to understand.
I don't know where you found this teaching, but it certainly isn't from the Bible.

IOW, you don't believe that Jesus is God...therefore the conclusion is this: the "jesus" in whom you believe, is the son of Joseph, not the Son of God. You are trusting in "another jesus" and "another gospel". Your "jesus" is a sinner and he can't and he doesn't save.

I understand the virgin birth according to the Scriptures...you have no Scriptural proof for what you teach....because what you teach is a damnable heresy!
 
Mar 21, 2014
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That's our modern humanistic perspective otherwise explain this verse and still maintain God does not change.Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth..Sounds like a respecter of nations...maybe not individuals.
Hey jetfire fiwats arrr youu zalken about, ows it goin you living legend legend lol, isreal shall rise among all nations amen an God bless
 
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I have no desire to get tripped up in the twisted theology of the HRM. They are judaizers who pervert the work of the cross by mingling it with obey laws which are no longer in effect. They mix law with grace and feel superior for it. Law keeping is nothing more than self righteousness and few are more self righteous than those of the HRM who post here. It is nothing but new twist on an old lie that we must be like the Jews (obey the Sabbath, keep the feasts, obey the Mosaic laws, wear a tallit, a kippa, use Hebrew terms instead of Greek terms, read the old testament more often than the new Testament, call others lawless who are not in the HRM, etc, etc, etc.)

No thankx, I have absolutely no desire at all to get involved with the demonic lies of that filthy movement.
no deisre, yeah righ u are the thread starter, and the tisted fire starter lol, but na me is just jokin with ya, ya know dat, the hrm is an always and will be on the rise
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I expect this to be my last post on this subject. I do not see the point in writing out a whole lineage just to make it pointless at the very end. This does not make sense to me at all. I believe that the Holy Spirit (of the Holy Spirit) took the seed from Joseph (son of David) and put the seed in Mary. If I am wrong I am wrong. If you have further points I will try to come back and read them.
WRONG! GOD created in the womb of Mary for HIMSELF a body in which HE WHO IS ETERNAL, could die for our sins, fulfilling what HE Himself defined as the greatest form of LOVE.


John 15:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] No one has greater love than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] You are My friends if you do what I command you. ( If you receive HIM as LORD which means Master, submitting to HIS Lordship. )

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Now I want to help undo your confusion about the Genealogy of Christ in Matthew and Luke. I did a lengthy study on the subject a couple years ago, and I will post it here in my next few Posts. Please read it, because once again you will notice that the lack of understanding of Jewish inheritance laws is the cause of the confusion.
 
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danschance

Guest
no deisre, yeah righ u are the thread starter, and the tisted fire starter lol, but na me is just jokin with ya, ya know dat, the hrm is an always and will be on the rise
Yes, like I said, I have no desire to get tripped up in the bizarre twisted HRM. I will never be a part of any segment of the Hebrew Roots Movement.
 
Mar 21, 2014
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Yes, like I said, I have no desire to get tripped up in the bizarre twisted HRM. I will never be a part of any segment of the Hebrew Roots Movement.
yes good for you, what about the hebrew root movment that might need some prayer ?
 
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danschance

Guest
yes good for you, what about the hebrew root movment that might need some prayer ?
Yes we should pray for those snared in this demonic movement, so they can find the real Jesus and the real Gospel.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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And i thought it would be simple to see,,,I thought that everyone would see all of the Jewish synagogs set up all over the world beginning at the cross. in 71ad the High priest explaining to all the newly converted gentiles into the faith. this is all madness everyone knows from history that synagogs were set up in every nation preaching that Jesus is the Messiah and that thanks to the Jewish priest and Sanhedrin,ect. the Gospel has been taught to every nation,,,

Everyone acts as tho the synagog was destroyed in 70ad,by the Romans?,,,,doesn't anyone realize that if god didnt want the Hebrew movement to be taught for the last 2000 years he would have let the Romans destroy the temple and scattered them and took away their ability to teach the same religion that was taught?,,,,Ask your self "what did god actually do?",,,,did he set up the so called churches everywhere?,,,,,,,,,No you see the Hebrew grass movement is valid and god left the Jewish high priest,Sanhedrin,,,ect. in power and we've been teaching you ever since,,,,,,,"isn't that just punny(s.c.)when you look at it real close?????,,,,,,,,,
 
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