Predestination Makes Void Personal Responsibility

[Ukorin]

RehBein:

How does it put Paul in a fix? If he knew that some were predestined for salvation, why would that not encourage him to preach the Gospel, realizing that he was going to be successful? And if he believed in predestination, would he not also consider that God ordained the means (Paul's preaching) as well as the end?

I don't see how anyone who reads the Bible could deny either human responsibility or God's predestination. One might affirm that we don't quite understand how God runs the universe and the course of the ages -- no more than my dogs understand 1 percent of what I do. But they do appreciate me.

As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy. For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.


O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.

Amen! Predestination encourages evangelism because it ensures success!
If acceptance is based on man's choice, then there is no assurance that the Word going out would not return void.

 

[crossnote]

QUOTED:nope it is a bona fide question.If God merely is a fore 'seer' when it comes to choosing Christ, then swings into action and starts predestininating...how does that work?'He predestines according to His foreknowledge...''. Does He rewind the script and predestines?END QUOTED........I have no choice but to believe that you are pot stirring if you continue to post comments/answers that are "moot" at best, and/or a misrepresentation of others comments (uh, like, mine) at worst.............Romans 8:24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?25 .) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.26 .) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 .) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.28 .) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 .) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 .) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.(excerpt from Article)"The word 'world' is from the Greek kosmos, an orderly system, hence age, or dispensation. Thus, Christ, as a lamb, was foreknown as such from before the beginning of the age or dispensation. What age? Creation, so some expositors affirm, thus projecting the time when Christ was ordained as a sacrifice into the period before creation of the universe. Though such a view is widely held, and many eminent commentators may be cited in support, the difficulties associated with it are, to this writer, insuperable. It is impossible to distinguish between the foreknowledge of God with reference to such a plan of redemption and the will that originated it. The two are in the nature of the case inseparable. To project a plan of redemption into the period prior to the fall of man raises immediately and inevitably the question of the free agency of Adam and Eve. If God had already devised a plan for the redemption of man from a sin which was certain to be committed, how could Adam and Eve avoided its commission? If Christ was a lamb for expiation of sin from before creation, how could the transgression have been other than inevitable since not only it, but the consequences therefore had been provided for in the councils of eternity. Since, in such a view of the case, our first parents were but passive actors in a drama written and stereotyped before they had existence, ought they not to be commended for obedience in dutifully furthering a plan ordained for them in eternity and which they could not possibly have altered without falsifying God's foreknowledge? Should they not, we repeat, be commended for obedience, rather than condemned for disobedience? Such must, in consequence, follow, if the popular view be true. The difficulties it entails are insurmountable" (A Commentary on the New Testament EpistlesFOUND HERE:1. www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR231.htmCachedThe Foreknowledge of God . One expression involved in a serious study of the foreknowledge of God is, "from" or "before the foundation of the world."

Call it pot stirring if you like.Even quote from rationalists who's rationale would somehow place the verse below as happening after the fall.


Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Atwood]

Predestination & Personal Responsibility" Both in Scripture

When one comes across a statement like "elect . . . according to the foreknowledge of God," one thinks that one might get some further insight into election by considering that it is according to foreknowledge. Then if one goes over the the BADG Greek lexicon, one finds that foreknowledge in the NT is partly defined in BDAG (uninspired) as nearly the same thing as election or predestination, almost like saying, one is predestined according to predestination!

I don't think we will solve these questions here, but there have been serious works written on the subject which might bring insight with personal study -- or maybe you will end up just saying, "Duh," or with your mind swimming with a hint at the grandeur of the Almighty. Does anyone really understand God's relationship to time?

Here is a journal article which I believe merits careful reading on this subject, not to say that I am sure he is right:


http://chafer.nextmeta.com/files/v9n1_3the_meaning_of_proginwskw.pdf\


This is a journal article:


Edgar, Thomas R.: "The Meaning Of ΠΡΟΓΙΝΩΣΚΩ: ('To Foreknow')," Chafer Theological Seminary Journal, IX, 1 (Spring, 2003), pp. 41ff.

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTE:

been charged to Preach the Gospel to the Gentiles.RehBein:

How does it put Paul in a fix? If he knew that some were predestined for salvation, why would that not encourage him to preach the Gospel, realizing that he was going to be successful? And if he believed in predestination, would he not also consider that God ordained the means (Paul's preaching) as well as the end?

Even more puzzling is WHAT he decided to preach...........Why give a person predestined to eternal damnation FALSE HOPE that IF THEY JUST CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD, they will be saved? Why lie to them?

Doesn't make sense to me.......

END QUOTATION

What purpose would his preaching serve other than to stroke his ego? After all............those predestined to eternal life will receive eternal life with our without Paul's preaching...........just as those predestined to eternal damnation will with or without his preaching.........What possible purpose does his preaching serve?

 

[Ukorin]

QUOTE:

been charged to Preach the Gospel to the Gentiles.RehBein:

How does it put Paul in a fix? If he knew that some were predestined for salvation, why would that not encourage him to preach the Gospel, realizing that he was going to be successful? And if he believed in predestination, would he not also consider that God ordained the means (Paul's preaching) as well as the end?

Even more puzzling is WHAT he decided to preach...........Why give a person predestined to eternal damnation FALSE HOPE that IF THEY JUST CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD, they will be saved? Why lie to them?

Doesn't make sense to me.......

END QUOTATION

What purpose would his preaching serve other than to stroke his ego? After all............those predestined to eternal life will receive eternal life with our without Paul's preaching...........just as those predestined to eternal damnation will with or without his preaching.........What possible purpose does his preaching serve?

Why do you again go to this strawman of predestination being a two way street? Men doom themselves to hell. No predestination needed to go down, only up.

Move on.
This is not what Calvin preached, nor is it a mainline belief. Only fringe 'ultra-Calvinists'.

 

[phil112]

Predestination Makes Void Personal Responsibility.

That's right, as does also OSAS. If we have no freewill, if our future is not in our hands, the bible has no purpose. All warnings and cautions issued by God are just so much drivel.

There can be no logical reasoning or explanation of God exhorting us to maintain the course if we couldn't fail.

 

[Apostol2013]

I actually like that verse for it shows that predestination/irresistible will trumps personal responsibility........

And predestination makes Job's desire to debate with God moot............in fact, the entire Book of Job is of no avail, since God predestined all from the beginning..........hmmmm, guess predestination pretty much makes of no avail the entire Bible.

We have all responsibility to live a fruitfull and Holy life unto God to be pre destined makes one work harder not be slothfull lest anyone be a reprobate

 

[crossnote]

That's right, as does also OSAS. If we have no freewill, if our future is not in our hands, the bible has no purpose. All warnings and cautions issued by God are just so much drivel.

There can be no logical reasoning or explanation of God exhorting us to maintain the course if we couldn't fail.

Looking at the same through the other end of the looking glass...That's wrong as is one can lose God's salvation. He was not willing that any should be lost but was impotent and helpless to man's will over His own. If our future is in our hands God has no plan, not even redemption.
All warnings and cautions issued by God are only "I hope they pay attention due to their greater will.''

 

[phil112]

Crossnote, scripture will not back you up. You have been given verse after verse after verse.
Plans fail. Especially when they are predicated on man's freewill. You ever hear of someone backing out at the marriage altar?
You think God's will is infallible when He depends on man? His plans never fails because He never depends on only one person.

To believe what you believe, you are telling all of us that hell is empty. Do you believe that?

 

[Atwood]

That's right, as does also OSAS. If we have no freewill, if our future is not in our hands, the bible has no purpose. All warnings and cautions issued by God are just so much drivel.

There can be no logical reasoning or explanation of God exhorting us to maintain the course if we couldn't fail.

Well Phil, how do you account for the fact that the Bible clearly teaches predestination/foreordination/election? The can be no logical reasoning or explanation contrary to God's Word.

Why did the Lord Jesus tell the woman at the well (John 4) to go get her husband? Could she do it?

 

[Atwood]

As I scan recent posts, I don't see much scripture, but I do notice people just saying things.

 

[phil112]

Well Phil, how do you account for the fact that the Bible clearly teaches predestination/foreordination/election? The can be no logical reasoning or explanation contrary to God's Word.

Why did the Lord Jesus tell the woman at the well (John 4) to go get her husband?Could she do it?

The bible says no such thing. It never says it in clear language. It is a doctrine acquired by manipulation of scripture.



2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Do people perish or do all go to heaven?

 

[Nick01]

The bible says no such thing. It never says it in clear language. It is a doctrine acquired by manipulation of scripture.

Really? A cursory reading of this thread would turn up plenty of verses that discuss predestination, even if you want to argue predestination means something radically different to what the regular meaning would be. There are some on this very page.

 

[p_rehbein]

As I scan recent posts, I don't see much scripture, but I do notice people just saying things.

yeah, but, when people quote Scripture, then folks say............what's with all the Scripture?.............so..............

Simple truth, there is Scripture (as folks understand Scripture) that supports both predestination and free will, AND something in betwixt the two.........

And they have been posted at least a zillion times here on CC I would suspect.

 

[p_rehbein]

We have all responsibility to live a fruitfull and Holy life unto God to be pre destined makes one work harder not be slothfull lest anyone be a reprobate

History would beg to differ with that generalization...............

 

[Ukorin]

History would beg to differ with that generalization...............

I'm not sure who started this rumor.
Do you have any actual verification?

Methodist revivals were generally short-lived. Do spurts of attempting to escape hell by doing good really count as perseverance or bearing fruit?

What history shows is that Arminianism gets quick results, yet generally shallow confession, and then eventually wears off.
Reformed evangelism has shown slower revivals, but with steady and long-term effects.

Your proposal that OSAS historically produces carnal Christians is fictional.

 

[p_rehbein]

Oh, I see........when you and others post "generalization" comments, that's ok? But if I do it, then I am REQUIRED to provide hard evidence? Is that about right?

........goodness.........sigh...........

Your entire comment was a "generalization."

So, tell ya what, you go first!

oh, and...............

QUOTE: Your proposal that OSAS historically produces carnal Christians is fictional. END QUOTE.

Your assertion that OSAS doesn't is fictional............(and, FYI, this thread concerns Predestination, not OSAS)

 

[Ukorin]

I've found that most members in my home church are ex-arminianists who finally gained security and assurance in their salvation, and have moved on the meat of Scripture.

 

[p_rehbein]

I've found that every ex-Calvinist that I meet were so very sad to have been brainwashed into believing the theology of Calvin.

(see, if we are going to make unsubstantiated "generalizations" anyone can play that game)

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote, scripture will not back you up. You have been given verse after verse after verse.
Plans fail. Especially when they are predicated on man's freewill. You ever hear of someone backing out at the marriage altar?
You think God's will is infallible when He depends on man? His plans never fails because He never depends on only one person.

To believe what you believe, you are telling all of us that hell is empty. Do you believe that?

you do know what satire is, don't you Phil?