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I find the entire subject bewildering. Wine, in scripture is the blood of the grape and it is praised and used in the celebration of the Lord. When the Nazarene Oath is taken, part of it is to not drink any wine or even grape juice. Scripture makes it clear that drunkenness is against godliness, and we are to respect the body God gives us.
An alcoholic explained to me that after he spent six months in rehabilitation, he did not dare even have a tiny glass of wine, it could set him off again.
My husband and I had three children even though our income was always quite low, so we never spent any of it on anything alcoholic. But after they were grown and I became elderly, I found a glass of wine and a good book was wonderful in the evening. My church says if I do that, I may not be a member of their church. So I go there, but without membership. I don't believe in this restriction for me.
I am thankful for this discussion.
An alcoholic explained to me that after he spent six months in rehabilitation, he did not dare even have a tiny glass of wine, it could set him off again.
My husband and I had three children even though our income was always quite low, so we never spent any of it on anything alcoholic. But after they were grown and I became elderly, I found a glass of wine and a good book was wonderful in the evening. My church says if I do that, I may not be a member of their church. So I go there, but without membership. I don't believe in this restriction for me.
I am thankful for this discussion.
T
As a former alcoholic myself, I will excuse your ignorance and lack of grace as simple misunderstanding on your part. It is quite evident you have no understanding of alcohol, which is classified as a drug.
My Point was that many, including yourself, love to suggest that drugs are true evil, but alcohol, if done in moderation poses no threat. Just so it sinks into your ears Mr. Moderation, alcohol poses a significant threat too many and and has caused millions of dollars in property damage, legal fees, has killed thousands and broken up thousands of families.
For some, alcohol is just as evil as pot, coke, meth, and heroin and for you to suggest otherwise is really a very immature statement.
For me, there is no concept of moderation or social drinking, there is only destruction. While my statement was over the top, it had context, that flew right over you.
I am not a legalist about alcohol in the Bible, I do not believe in the revisionist view that many in protestant circles state, that Jesus never drank fermented wine and it was all grape juice.
The Bible is clear in Romans 14, that if we do something, which causes a weaker brother to stumble we should abstain from it, even if we do not think it is right. Paul also said to go forward and eat or drink even wine, knowing it may cause a brother to stumble IS sin.
I do not allow anyone on my ministry team to drink. Period. We work in a prison ministry where we deal with former raging alcoholics. This causes them to stumble if they smell it or think you are a drinker.
While my post was over the top, you need to learn some common sense and understand context.
And for the record and having worked with former drug addicts, sex addicts, drinkers, smokers and the ones the church ignores the most, I can tell you very matter of factually there is no such thing as drinking in moderation or social drinkers.
Anything you do in the natural to gain peace, reduce stress, or take the edge off, while not a sin, goes against the very principals found in the Bible and all over the NT.
Class dismissed Jr.
My Point was that many, including yourself, love to suggest that drugs are true evil, but alcohol, if done in moderation poses no threat. Just so it sinks into your ears Mr. Moderation, alcohol poses a significant threat too many and and has caused millions of dollars in property damage, legal fees, has killed thousands and broken up thousands of families.
For some, alcohol is just as evil as pot, coke, meth, and heroin and for you to suggest otherwise is really a very immature statement.
For me, there is no concept of moderation or social drinking, there is only destruction. While my statement was over the top, it had context, that flew right over you.
I am not a legalist about alcohol in the Bible, I do not believe in the revisionist view that many in protestant circles state, that Jesus never drank fermented wine and it was all grape juice.
The Bible is clear in Romans 14, that if we do something, which causes a weaker brother to stumble we should abstain from it, even if we do not think it is right. Paul also said to go forward and eat or drink even wine, knowing it may cause a brother to stumble IS sin.
I do not allow anyone on my ministry team to drink. Period. We work in a prison ministry where we deal with former raging alcoholics. This causes them to stumble if they smell it or think you are a drinker.
While my post was over the top, you need to learn some common sense and understand context.
And for the record and having worked with former drug addicts, sex addicts, drinkers, smokers and the ones the church ignores the most, I can tell you very matter of factually there is no such thing as drinking in moderation or social drinkers.
Anything you do in the natural to gain peace, reduce stress, or take the edge off, while not a sin, goes against the very principals found in the Bible and all over the NT.
Class dismissed Jr.
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I have compiled a list of verses that tell us to be sober minded. I provided them in this thread here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...nted-wine-not-fermented-wine.html#post1647930
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...nted-wine-not-fermented-wine.html#post1647930
What about this....... Person has a couple of beers, or glasses of wine, gets in his car, gets pulled over by a cop, cop smells alcohol, gives a breath test, & writes him up a ticket for DUI. According to the law, he's too impaired to be driving..... in layman's terms, he's legally drunk. The world now has better sense about some things than christians do...... Is something wrong here?
Bingo. This is clearly one of those stronger brother-weaker brother situations spoken of in Romans 14.
If I were to hazard a guess at a rule from laws concerning drunkenness and gluttony, it is that sins which concern the body involve consumption to a degree that mars one's discipline in the Christian faith.
Alcohol is, by and large, easier to abuse than food with consequences more severe and immediate, but the nature of drunkenness and gluttony are not dissimilar. Food is also quite powerful, and gluttony makes the body used to almost instantaneous self-gratification that mirrors the urgings of other sins. So the gluttonous person is left in a similar albeit not as immediately severe spiral.
That said though, we're all individuals. Some are naturally heavier than others or have glandular issues, so we cannot rely completely on appearance to decide who is gluttonous and who is not.
Some require more food for nourishment. Some can eat a cupcake without temptation to over-indulge. Some cannot. In America many cannot as Stephen has already pointed out, hahaha.
Does this mean we should, as a Christian body, ban cupcakes and demand those with cupcakes to lay them at an alter in contrition? No. We should urge our brothers and sisters to consume said food in a responsible manner.
For some this will involve abstaining from cupcakes. For others this will allow an occasional cupcake. Those who take the occasional cupcake cannot lord over those who don't just as those who abstain from cupcakes have a right to criticize those who enjoy their cupcakes responsibly.
I think you can see where I am going with this as far as it relates to alcohol and other drugs (save those expressly forbidden because they put people in altered states that make them more prone to sin).
It is this sort of understanding of discipline under God that will bolster our light in the world.
If I were to hazard a guess at a rule from laws concerning drunkenness and gluttony, it is that sins which concern the body involve consumption to a degree that mars one's discipline in the Christian faith.
Alcohol is, by and large, easier to abuse than food with consequences more severe and immediate, but the nature of drunkenness and gluttony are not dissimilar. Food is also quite powerful, and gluttony makes the body used to almost instantaneous self-gratification that mirrors the urgings of other sins. So the gluttonous person is left in a similar albeit not as immediately severe spiral.
That said though, we're all individuals. Some are naturally heavier than others or have glandular issues, so we cannot rely completely on appearance to decide who is gluttonous and who is not.
Some require more food for nourishment. Some can eat a cupcake without temptation to over-indulge. Some cannot. In America many cannot as Stephen has already pointed out, hahaha.
Does this mean we should, as a Christian body, ban cupcakes and demand those with cupcakes to lay them at an alter in contrition? No. We should urge our brothers and sisters to consume said food in a responsible manner.
For some this will involve abstaining from cupcakes. For others this will allow an occasional cupcake. Those who take the occasional cupcake cannot lord over those who don't just as those who abstain from cupcakes have a right to criticize those who enjoy their cupcakes responsibly.
I think you can see where I am going with this as far as it relates to alcohol and other drugs (save those expressly forbidden because they put people in altered states that make them more prone to sin).
It is this sort of understanding of discipline under God that will bolster our light in the world.