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there's a lot of evidence for the Exodus presented in the video i posted.
this guy in your video ^
is arguing that because he doesn't find permanent structures built in the wilderness by a nomadic people who built no permanent structures while they wandered for 40 years in the desert, it didn't happen.
lack of discovered archaeological remains cannot prove non-existence. especially when talking about a wandering people that you would not expect to leave evidence. 4,000 years later and there are no footprints in the sand? well, duh. Egyptians who regularly erased all records of military defeats of the Pharoahs did not leave a record of the Exodus? well, duh.
anyway it sounds like he has never heard of Joshua's altar on mount Ebal, which is odd, because it's very well documented and directly refutes his skeptical suppositions.
have a look (did you not watch the video i posted? it refutes what this guy has to say 10x over) --
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-altar-of-joshua.htm
this guy in your video ^
is arguing that because he doesn't find permanent structures built in the wilderness by a nomadic people who built no permanent structures while they wandered for 40 years in the desert, it didn't happen.
lack of discovered archaeological remains cannot prove non-existence. especially when talking about a wandering people that you would not expect to leave evidence. 4,000 years later and there are no footprints in the sand? well, duh. Egyptians who regularly erased all records of military defeats of the Pharoahs did not leave a record of the Exodus? well, duh.
anyway it sounds like he has never heard of Joshua's altar on mount Ebal, which is odd, because it's very well documented and directly refutes his skeptical suppositions.
have a look (did you not watch the video i posted? it refutes what this guy has to say 10x over) --
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-altar-of-joshua.htm
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C
Re: You have nothing...
Right. It's called polemic. It was written much later than the polytheistic worship
that was the norm. This was due to religious reforms by King Hezekiah and Josiah.
The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the ... - Mark S. Smith - Google Books
How do we know Babylon didn't just take Israel into captivity without God telling them
to do so? People have free will don't they? Just because something is written and
rationalized in a book doesn't mean that it's true. It's true that ancient Jews believed
this and wrote it down but that doesn't prove anything now does it?
Right. It's called polemic. It was written much later than the polytheistic worship
that was the norm. This was due to religious reforms by King Hezekiah and Josiah.
The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the ... - Mark S. Smith - Google Books
How do we know Babylon didn't just take Israel into captivity without God telling them
to do so? People have free will don't they? Just because something is written and
rationalized in a book doesn't mean that it's true. It's true that ancient Jews believed
this and wrote it down but that doesn't prove anything now does it?
C
All of this is off topic by the way. How do we know that Mount Ebal wasn't just a cult place of worship?
Even if it was Joshua's altar so what? Just because there are some true things in the Bible it does NOT
follow that everything in it is true. That's not a very hard concept to understand.
As for the Exodus:
A. By the Bibles own chronology, the year of the Exodus fell during Egypt’s heyday under the 18 Dynasty during the imperium of the puissant Thutmosis III (1490-1436 BCE). It is simply impossible - as so many have said - that the Hebrew slaves attained liberation at the very apex of Egyptian power.
B. The absence of any recognizable Israelites in the Amarna letters, tablets which describe in detail the conditions in 14 century BCE Canaan (See William Moran, The Amarna Letters, John Hopkins Press, 1992).
C. Most scholars would place Israelite origins in the late 13 century BCE or the beginning of the Iron Age where we fine hundreds of new settlements in the hilly Israelite heartland (Israel Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred ). From exactly the same period, Pharaoh Merneptah’s victory stele boasts of his “eradication” of a group called “Israel” (see Ancient near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, pp 376 -378).
D. A greater problem is that the new highland settlements in Canaan from the 13 – 12 centuries BCE show very little connection with Egyptian material culture. Similarly, the Hebrew language is a purely Canaanite dialect with only Egyptian borrowings of trade words such as found throughout the Near East (see Thomas Lambdin, Egyptian Loan Words in the Old Testament and Muchiki, Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in North-West Semitic). Much more Egyptian words and culture should be present in the highlands of Canaan if the Israelite did indeed spent 400 years living in Egypt and then resettled in Canaan.
E. Another problem is the Bible’s complete silence on the Egyptian forays into Syria-Palestine in the late 13 to early 12 centuries BCE under Merneptah and Ramses III. Had the Israelites completely forgotten these inconvenient facts?
F. Even if we re-date the Exodus in favor of a conquest in the early Iron Age, our problems still remain. All the cities the Bible cites as being present during the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites (Kadesh Barnea, Gibeon, Heshbon and Dibon along with the kingdoms of Moab and Edon) did not exist until well into the later Iron Age (William Dever, Who Were the Israelites and Where did They Come From?) The same problem is evident in Joshua’s purported conquest; virtually none of the cities he is said to have conquered shows any evidence of any occupation for the appropriate period. (Dever, 37-71).
G. While the Biblical Book of Exodus claims that the Israelites left Egypt at about 2 million strong (Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people) and wondered in the Sinai Wilderness 40 years, archeologists have found no settlements or any other artifacts to support this story (William Dever, Recent Archaeological Discoveries and Biblical Research).
H. One excellent example is the series (now on Youtube) The Bible Unearthed 2. The Exodus. Those who accept the Biblical Exodus as a factual historical event will do themselves an educational favor to watch this video, especially the video's 20 – 28 minute mark as the Exodus is discussed by one of the foremost experts in Egyptology, Donald B. Redford
Any Christian who wants to reject such facts MUST deal with William H. C. Propp’s 2 volume commentary on Exodus in “The Anchor Bible” series.
Propp’s final conclusion: The Exodus story is a Romantic myth based on fantasy (see: The Historicity of the Exodus from Egypt, vol. 2, pp. 735 -756).
Even if it was Joshua's altar so what? Just because there are some true things in the Bible it does NOT
follow that everything in it is true. That's not a very hard concept to understand.
As for the Exodus:
A. By the Bibles own chronology, the year of the Exodus fell during Egypt’s heyday under the 18 Dynasty during the imperium of the puissant Thutmosis III (1490-1436 BCE). It is simply impossible - as so many have said - that the Hebrew slaves attained liberation at the very apex of Egyptian power.
B. The absence of any recognizable Israelites in the Amarna letters, tablets which describe in detail the conditions in 14 century BCE Canaan (See William Moran, The Amarna Letters, John Hopkins Press, 1992).
C. Most scholars would place Israelite origins in the late 13 century BCE or the beginning of the Iron Age where we fine hundreds of new settlements in the hilly Israelite heartland (Israel Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred ). From exactly the same period, Pharaoh Merneptah’s victory stele boasts of his “eradication” of a group called “Israel” (see Ancient near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, pp 376 -378).
D. A greater problem is that the new highland settlements in Canaan from the 13 – 12 centuries BCE show very little connection with Egyptian material culture. Similarly, the Hebrew language is a purely Canaanite dialect with only Egyptian borrowings of trade words such as found throughout the Near East (see Thomas Lambdin, Egyptian Loan Words in the Old Testament and Muchiki, Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in North-West Semitic). Much more Egyptian words and culture should be present in the highlands of Canaan if the Israelite did indeed spent 400 years living in Egypt and then resettled in Canaan.
E. Another problem is the Bible’s complete silence on the Egyptian forays into Syria-Palestine in the late 13 to early 12 centuries BCE under Merneptah and Ramses III. Had the Israelites completely forgotten these inconvenient facts?
F. Even if we re-date the Exodus in favor of a conquest in the early Iron Age, our problems still remain. All the cities the Bible cites as being present during the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites (Kadesh Barnea, Gibeon, Heshbon and Dibon along with the kingdoms of Moab and Edon) did not exist until well into the later Iron Age (William Dever, Who Were the Israelites and Where did They Come From?) The same problem is evident in Joshua’s purported conquest; virtually none of the cities he is said to have conquered shows any evidence of any occupation for the appropriate period. (Dever, 37-71).
G. While the Biblical Book of Exodus claims that the Israelites left Egypt at about 2 million strong (Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people) and wondered in the Sinai Wilderness 40 years, archeologists have found no settlements or any other artifacts to support this story (William Dever, Recent Archaeological Discoveries and Biblical Research).
H. One excellent example is the series (now on Youtube) The Bible Unearthed 2. The Exodus. Those who accept the Biblical Exodus as a factual historical event will do themselves an educational favor to watch this video, especially the video's 20 – 28 minute mark as the Exodus is discussed by one of the foremost experts in Egyptology, Donald B. Redford
Any Christian who wants to reject such facts MUST deal with William H. C. Propp’s 2 volume commentary on Exodus in “The Anchor Bible” series.
Propp’s final conclusion: The Exodus story is a Romantic myth based on fantasy (see: The Historicity of the Exodus from Egypt, vol. 2, pp. 735 -756).
I will try to make this short(I have things i must go do but will return this afternoon),,,
The subject of who was worshiping who (God the almighty or pagan/false gods) can become an explosive subject. I think the best results can come to light if the scriptures are taken as a foundation on the matter. I keep pointing to Golbekle tepe for this reason. As we know Abraham was separated out and as we know also our religion/faith is spawned by the contact with God and him and the things we are told afterward.
From Abraham backward through his father Terah to Seth then is the set of questions we should ask(if we are discussing only this blood line),,as we know the o.p. states "contact with humans" so this includes (all mankind/every blood line),but as we see we are easily drawn into the specific group,,(Abraham,Issac,Jacob) which is only "one blood-line of the many among mankind",,,
In Joshua chapter 24,,in specific (Joshua 24;2) we are told that Terah (the father of Nachor and Abraham) according to scripture "AND THEY SERVED OTHER GODS". So at some point between Noah,Seth,ect. leaving the arc and "TERAH" they began to "serve other Gods",we would rather say this differently(I would rather believe they were always aligned with God),but in scripture it states that they "served other gods" so there's no other opinion other than they did.(hence Terah from the Golbekle tepe area matched together with Joshua 24;2 is most probably a good indication of the actual Gods Terah was worshiping e.g."the ones at Golbekle Tepe= above 50% probability",,So this matched with the faith we were taught and what is said of Terah in Joshua 24;2 should have us draw the conclusion that at Golbekly Tepe "this is not the manner God chose for us to worship him,but rather the way Terah(and the fathers) were worshiping before Abraham was separated out.
Continuing through Joshua chapter 24 a certain point is raised in (Joshua 24;14-15),,"THE GODS YOUR FATHER SERVED",,,"who's fathers?",,,that is the Hebrew people who are being addressed are the descendents(blood-line) of "Abraham Issac,Jacob",,as they multiplied,were in Egypt,led out,and wandered 40 years,and are about to go into the promised land,that is they are not the lineage of Japeth or Ham nor are they descendents of the other sons Seth fathered ,they are descendents of the direct blood-line from Arpachshad(son of Seth) Arpachshad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and are the (ONLEY PEOPLE) being addressed in chapter 24 of Joshua. I am saying these things not to "step on any toes,or accuse any of the persons in this blood-line,but rather to point out the fact that in the scriptures(Joshua 24;2-15) that it is written that they served "other gods",to so that the things uncovered at Gobekle Tepe are not confused with a/the correct worship of God,and that they are spoken of in the scripture as "other gods your(the Hebrews) fathers worshiped.
The subject of who was worshiping who (God the almighty or pagan/false gods) can become an explosive subject. I think the best results can come to light if the scriptures are taken as a foundation on the matter. I keep pointing to Golbekle tepe for this reason. As we know Abraham was separated out and as we know also our religion/faith is spawned by the contact with God and him and the things we are told afterward.
From Abraham backward through his father Terah to Seth then is the set of questions we should ask(if we are discussing only this blood line),,as we know the o.p. states "contact with humans" so this includes (all mankind/every blood line),but as we see we are easily drawn into the specific group,,(Abraham,Issac,Jacob) which is only "one blood-line of the many among mankind",,,
In Joshua chapter 24,,in specific (Joshua 24;2) we are told that Terah (the father of Nachor and Abraham) according to scripture "AND THEY SERVED OTHER GODS". So at some point between Noah,Seth,ect. leaving the arc and "TERAH" they began to "serve other Gods",we would rather say this differently(I would rather believe they were always aligned with God),but in scripture it states that they "served other gods" so there's no other opinion other than they did.(hence Terah from the Golbekle tepe area matched together with Joshua 24;2 is most probably a good indication of the actual Gods Terah was worshiping e.g."the ones at Golbekle Tepe= above 50% probability",,So this matched with the faith we were taught and what is said of Terah in Joshua 24;2 should have us draw the conclusion that at Golbekly Tepe "this is not the manner God chose for us to worship him,but rather the way Terah(and the fathers) were worshiping before Abraham was separated out.
Continuing through Joshua chapter 24 a certain point is raised in (Joshua 24;14-15),,"THE GODS YOUR FATHER SERVED",,,"who's fathers?",,,that is the Hebrew people who are being addressed are the descendents(blood-line) of "Abraham Issac,Jacob",,as they multiplied,were in Egypt,led out,and wandered 40 years,and are about to go into the promised land,that is they are not the lineage of Japeth or Ham nor are they descendents of the other sons Seth fathered ,they are descendents of the direct blood-line from Arpachshad(son of Seth) Arpachshad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and are the (ONLEY PEOPLE) being addressed in chapter 24 of Joshua. I am saying these things not to "step on any toes,or accuse any of the persons in this blood-line,but rather to point out the fact that in the scriptures(Joshua 24;2-15) that it is written that they served "other gods",to so that the things uncovered at Gobekle Tepe are not confused with a/the correct worship of God,and that they are spoken of in the scripture as "other gods your(the Hebrews) fathers worshiped.
because it is radically different than Phoenician altars, and other altars of other pagan peoples in the area at the time. it is built exactly as described in the Bible narrative.
and it dates to exactly the time that the Bible's internal chronology indicates, and is located in exactly the place that the Biblical narrative says it should be.
because it is Joshua's altar, is exactly where Joshua's book says it should be, and dates from the time Joshua's book says it should, it corroborates the narrative in Joshua. this turns the 'no exodus' hypothesis squarely on it's head.
you really ought to watch the video i posted. it was made 2 years after Propp's book, and details findings (such as the altar at Ebal) made after he wrote it, findings which specifically refute the claim that there is "zero evidence" for Hebrew occupation of Canaan.
and it dates to exactly the time that the Bible's internal chronology indicates, and is located in exactly the place that the Biblical narrative says it should be.
because it is Joshua's altar, is exactly where Joshua's book says it should be, and dates from the time Joshua's book says it should, it corroborates the narrative in Joshua. this turns the 'no exodus' hypothesis squarely on it's head.
you really ought to watch the video i posted. it was made 2 years after Propp's book, and details findings (such as the altar at Ebal) made after he wrote it, findings which specifically refute the claim that there is "zero evidence" for Hebrew occupation of Canaan.
Jesus is my teacher and i have been taught through experience. the bible confirms the experience. its really that simple. i was not trying to be a christian. for the most part i thought it all a myth. then the weirdest thing happened i asked Jesus for help and my entire life changed. how and why i asked Jesus for help is a long story and anyone who wants to hear from a witness their testimony feel free to email me.
the word confirms the experience and nothing anyone can say or show me from the academic world will do anything to change my belief in the experience. an experience that is confirmed by the bible. trust me when it happens to you it is far more shocking than i can describe and the implications of it for humanity are both majestic and terrifying. i don't need to argue the word with unbelievers who don't understand and i don't need to argue the word with believers who don't understand. that which is revealed by the spirit is considered foolishness to those without.
they will be ever looking and never see they will be for ever listening and never hear. its a magic eye poster that has been in front of you your whole life. its just a bunch of dots and you never see the actual picture that has always been there. ask Jesus for help for only Jesus can show it to you through the Holy Spirit. the physical changes and spiritual changes one goes through are all confirmed in the bible most especially in the book of romans.
that's really it, no amount of discussion will change any one mind as it wasn't what changed my mind on Christianity. all i can do is testify on how it effected me and changed me into the person i am today. should you simply believe me and my testimony? of course not if it were that simple we would convert people everyday.
so what should you do, those who seek answers about God? go to Jesus and ask for help. how do we go to Jesus? with confession. until you confess your sins,asking Jesus for help, you will never see the truth. it is our sin that blinds us from truth. you don't have to take my word for it you don't have to be a scholar or lawyer to experience it. confess that you are a sinner and ask Jesus for help. follow the Spirit and put to death the sins of the flesh. be crucified with Christ and do as the thief did, declare yourself guilty, deserving of punishment and Jesus as being innocent. there is a whole new world to experience the word, and its been here the whole time. just like the bible says. don't come to Christians and ask us to convince you the bible is real, we know its real. if you want to be convinced the bible is real why dont you ask Jesus to convince you. i f#$%ing dare you.
david duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
the word confirms the experience and nothing anyone can say or show me from the academic world will do anything to change my belief in the experience. an experience that is confirmed by the bible. trust me when it happens to you it is far more shocking than i can describe and the implications of it for humanity are both majestic and terrifying. i don't need to argue the word with unbelievers who don't understand and i don't need to argue the word with believers who don't understand. that which is revealed by the spirit is considered foolishness to those without.
they will be ever looking and never see they will be for ever listening and never hear. its a magic eye poster that has been in front of you your whole life. its just a bunch of dots and you never see the actual picture that has always been there. ask Jesus for help for only Jesus can show it to you through the Holy Spirit. the physical changes and spiritual changes one goes through are all confirmed in the bible most especially in the book of romans.
that's really it, no amount of discussion will change any one mind as it wasn't what changed my mind on Christianity. all i can do is testify on how it effected me and changed me into the person i am today. should you simply believe me and my testimony? of course not if it were that simple we would convert people everyday.
so what should you do, those who seek answers about God? go to Jesus and ask for help. how do we go to Jesus? with confession. until you confess your sins,asking Jesus for help, you will never see the truth. it is our sin that blinds us from truth. you don't have to take my word for it you don't have to be a scholar or lawyer to experience it. confess that you are a sinner and ask Jesus for help. follow the Spirit and put to death the sins of the flesh. be crucified with Christ and do as the thief did, declare yourself guilty, deserving of punishment and Jesus as being innocent. there is a whole new world to experience the word, and its been here the whole time. just like the bible says. don't come to Christians and ask us to convince you the bible is real, we know its real. if you want to be convinced the bible is real why dont you ask Jesus to convince you. i f#$%ing dare you.
david duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
Just a thought.....The two things our bodies do without us thinking about it and that are needed for life are..
1. Heart Beat
2. Breath
The breath of every living thing is in the hand of God.....To me, the fact that I do not have to use my thought to keep the above two listed working, testifies to a higher power in control of my life. If we were totally in control of our lives and what is needed to keep us alive...we would all die the first night we closed our eyes in sleep.
You believe in AIR which you cant see.....yet you can feel it on your skin, see the results of it in the billowing clouds and in the trees, see the results of it in the waves of the ocean and or dust blown in a dust storm etc. Same is true with God to those who believe the simple truths outlined in the word.
Quoting other sources mean nothing at the end of the day and just because someone has a piece of paper that states that they know something is a farce at best.....
Your cited sources<----taught by this man with a piece of paper that said he knew something<---taught by this man that had a piece of paper that said he knew something<----so on and so forth all the way down to the first man that had a piece of paper that said he knew something<------WHO SIGNED HIS PIECE OF PAPER that said HE knew something......what a joke for sure! Lets just write ourselves a degree and what do you know.....we actually know something......sounds like a degree from IMA MO University and the college of STOOPIDVILLE<----yeah I know how to spell STUPID!
1. Heart Beat
2. Breath
The breath of every living thing is in the hand of God.....To me, the fact that I do not have to use my thought to keep the above two listed working, testifies to a higher power in control of my life. If we were totally in control of our lives and what is needed to keep us alive...we would all die the first night we closed our eyes in sleep.
You believe in AIR which you cant see.....yet you can feel it on your skin, see the results of it in the billowing clouds and in the trees, see the results of it in the waves of the ocean and or dust blown in a dust storm etc. Same is true with God to those who believe the simple truths outlined in the word.
Quoting other sources mean nothing at the end of the day and just because someone has a piece of paper that states that they know something is a farce at best.....
Your cited sources<----taught by this man with a piece of paper that said he knew something<---taught by this man that had a piece of paper that said he knew something<----so on and so forth all the way down to the first man that had a piece of paper that said he knew something<------WHO SIGNED HIS PIECE OF PAPER that said HE knew something......what a joke for sure! Lets just write ourselves a degree and what do you know.....we actually know something......sounds like a degree from IMA MO University and the college of STOOPIDVILLE<----yeah I know how to spell STUPID!
C
Re: You have nothing...
Still waiting for you to actually find anything
wrong with what I posted. The evidence
speaks for itself. The fact that you keep
moving the goalposts and can't come up with
an actual counter argument is very telling.
Keep flopping around like a fish on a bank if
that's what makes you feel better.
Still waiting for you to actually find anything
wrong with what I posted. The evidence
speaks for itself. The fact that you keep
moving the goalposts and can't come up with
an actual counter argument is very telling.
Keep flopping around like a fish on a bank if
that's what makes you feel better.
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, your on here right. and your arguing against it, that's kind of a foolish question isn't it
According to your worldview why would you care if we believe? Do you think it improves your survival ability to question us, or is it just to make yourself feel better about the burning question in your own soul, that you cannot answer, or that you can answer it, that there is a God, that you must account to in the end, so for your "survival" you get on here an argue away what you hate
C
There you go again with "hate". I'm not really arguing with anyone because
no one's even challenged the evidence I've presented. Rather, like you, people
are attacking a strawman or using red herrrings to distract from the actual
issue.
I'm posting scholarly resources and their conclusions on how Judaism
arose out of polytheism just like all the other religions in the ancient
near east.
I'm wondering how can anyone still believe any of this based on what
the evidence indicates?
no one's even challenged the evidence I've presented. Rather, like you, people
are attacking a strawman or using red herrrings to distract from the actual
issue.
I'm posting scholarly resources and their conclusions on how Judaism
arose out of polytheism just like all the other religions in the ancient
near east.
I'm wondering how can anyone still believe any of this based on what
the evidence indicates?
Seeing this is a bible discussion forum/Christian that would mean that the vast amount of us/those then believe that Noah's arc settled at Ararat. Now from three sons then the world was repopulated,Shem,Ham and Japeth, so if we take a compass and draw a circle about every 100 miles from Mt. Ararat and bare in mind that these three then had children who then spread out farther and farther from Ararat then by the time they made it to Egypt they were several generations removed from Shem,Ham and Japeth so wouldn't it be unlikely that the gr.gr.gr.gr.gr.children were the beginnings of religion? that would be like us saying that in the year 2014 we the children who are alive today taught our fathers who lived in the year 1300,so if Egypt and the other nations came (after) those who first multiplied after the flood,then the beginning point would be Ararat and those people,then they divided and drifted away from God. So If we believe that there was a flood,and mankind then spread out from Ararat,this is the post-flood contact made by god to man and should be looked for as closely as possible to point A=Ararat.
C
Did the altar have "Joshua's Altar" written on it? Again, finding an altar doesn't prove
the Exodus happened. If you'll notice above, I gave 9 pieces of evidence against
the Exodus. All of which, you ignored.
Furthermore, the conquest didn't happen as reported in the Bible. Rather, it was
due to a gradual invasion by the Sea Peoples.
Sea Peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you want to read more, find the bottom of page 34 and read onward.
Israel's History and the History of Israel - Mario Liverani
the Exodus happened. If you'll notice above, I gave 9 pieces of evidence against
the Exodus. All of which, you ignored.
Furthermore, the conquest didn't happen as reported in the Bible. Rather, it was
due to a gradual invasion by the Sea Peoples.
Sea Peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you want to read more, find the bottom of page 34 and read onward.
Israel's History and the History of Israel - Mario Liverani