Are christians sinners, saints, or both?

[seed_time_harvest]

being dead to sin means it no longer has power over you where you can not stop it. It does not mean you are sinless. No one is sinless 24/7 No matter how mature you are. Paul did not even claim this, as mature in Christ as he was, he still claimed he ran the race, he had not yet finished.

Hello e-g good to hear you
We sin in the flesh but if the spirit is made perfect,doesn't that mean we are sinless in the spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Pharisees were "inwardly wicked" but put on an "outward show" of godliness.

The Christian is "inwardly righteous" and thus MANIFESTS "outward righteousness."

Thus you can try and compare me to the Pharisees all you like. I am not telling anyone to keep the Mosaic Law of "touch not, taste not" but rather I tell people to forsake evil and yield to righteousness.

I speak of heart purity which are two words that which are an anathema to many people when put together.

What do you mean by perfection? Why not define that term as you use it?

I say we are to be perfect in faith having a pure heart in which we love God and one another. That is the perfection I believe in. Not perfection as in never making a mistake, simply perfect in love.

Isn't that the perfection you deny?

A pharisee thought he was perfect. He was not.

You think you are perfect, You are not.

Yes a christian is inward righteous, thus as he grows, his outward will start to match his inward.

He is still not perfect/

 

[Brainfreeze]

so your perfect? You can go 24 hours without thinking one selfish though? I can't, paul could not even do that as he admitted.

the word translated perfect there means mature. Not sinless.. If we think we are sinless we are in danger, and self deceived, As John says, if we say we are sinless, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.

1 more thing..
Why would being sinless have us in danger, how are we in danger? Sinless is a good thing, I keep hearing this from this group of saint sinners... How are we deceived? We know what we are doing ..willfully, righteously, peacefully, with love... How would this be deception, or endangering?!?

If we say we have not sinned the truth is not in us right? No ones saying they haven't ...we are saying we don't ..difference

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello e-g good to hear you
We sin in the flesh but if the spirit is made perfect,doesn't that mean we are sinless in the spirit?

Thats is what Paul states. If we seek after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 more thing..
Why would being sinless have us in danger, how are we in danger? Sinless is a good thing, I keep hearing this from this group of saint sinners... How are we deceived? We know what we are doing ..willfully, righteously, peacefully, with love... How would this be deception, or endangering?!?

If we say we have not sinned the truth is not in us right? No ones saying they haven't ...we are saying we don't ..difference

why is it dangerous? because

1. Your not admitting the sin in your life
2. Your not humbly coming to the cross. and admitting you do not deserve (even now) the grace gift of God
3. You can not be healed by the sin you have in your life (your hiding it, Do not know about it, or are decieved by it)
4. You come off as judgemental, hypocritical, and false to the rest of the world.

 

[oyster67]

Full disclosure there is a faction here espousing the idea that true regenerate christians are not sinners. They say they sin at times, but they should not be called sinners and refuse to call themselves sinners. Thus, I'm asking the question:

Are we christians sinners?
Are we saints?
Or are we both?

Now the answer is clear in my view. Paul was certainly a saint (a set apart individual to God) but also called himself the chief of sinners and a wretched man. He had no trouble reconciling both titles.

Rom. 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

1Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy sayinga that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. ​

Notice that in both the above cases Paul is speaking in the present tense. I am a sinner, wretched man that I am. Obviously he had no problem calling himself both and neither do I.

Now to stave off a few coming accusations, I'm not an advocate of licentiousness. I don't believe that true faith exists without works. I believe also that reckless habitual sin on the part of professing believers may be an indication of a lack of true faith and an unregenerate state. Sin is never okay, and the Bible condemns licentiousness. I wanted to clarify that, because that's the main accusation this small group throws out against anyone claiming they are a sinner in the manner Paul did. Just recently one told me that a claim to sinnership is a denial of my sainthood. I of course refute that with Paul's words quoted above.

My hope in this thread is clarity. I want it to bring light not heat. I also want to expose what I think is a cultic movement on these boards and I pull no punches about that. I am open to correction on that as well, if I'm going too far with that, but that's my belief at present. I'm also concerned that some younger brothers on this board are getting caught up with these false teachers (again, my view, and I'm open to correction). I'd invite critiques on how far I'm taking this as well.

An article that might be helpful for further reading:
Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?

What say you?

I may have to confess to being a faction man. There is power in that blood, and when God looks at me, that's all He sees. You may still see me as a sinner, but He sees me as a saint.

Paul had an interesting method of teaching. Before he stepped up to the mic, he would put on the shoes of a sinner-man and take upon himself that role. When one looks at Romans 7:24 (above), one will see that he is assuming the position of an unsaved man; a man that has not been rescued yet. That is the method that He employs all through Romans 7. In Romans 8, He takes off the sinner-man's shoes and shows us the difference that salvation has wrought. He tells us what he and we are now; more than conquerors through Him that loved us. (Romans 8:37)

In 1 Tim 1:15 (above) Paul is obviously referring to his past; I am a man with a terrible past. It was gruesome indeed, but now he is washed whiter than snow.

I apologize on the part of my fellow factioneers for any cruel and judgmental accusations we may have hurled against you.

God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I may have to confess to being a faction man. There is power in that blood, and when God looks at me, that's all He sees. You may still see me as a sinner, but He sees me as a saint.

Paul had an interesting method of teaching. Before he stepped up to the mic, he would put on the shoes of a sinner-man and take upon himself that role. When one looks at Romans 7:24 (above), one will see that he is assuming the position of an unsaved man; a man that has not been rescued yet. That is the method that He employs all through Romans 7. In Romans 8, He takes off the sinner-man's shoes and shows us the difference that salvation has wrought. He tells us what he and we are now; more than conquerors through Him that loved us. (Romans 8:37)

In 1 Tim 1:15 (above) Paul is obviously referring to his past; I am a man with a terrible past. It was gruesome indeed, but now he is washed whiter than snow.

I apologize on the part of my fellow factioneers for any cruel and judgmental accusations we may have hurled against you.

God bless.

if paul was speaking of the sinner, he would have used past tense. He did not. he used present tense.

He said this is occuring right now as I speak "That I do not want to do I do" this is proven by how he ends it.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.

things to note.

1. delivers, present tense.
2. In mind, slave to Gods law. This is impossible in the pre saved state, we can do no good.

chapter 7 is the struggle all christians go through chapter 8 is how we deal with it.

 

[TKICBS]

I think we should accept the blood atonement and and understand that we are saints in God's eyes if we believe on Jesus and repent of all known sin. Thank you Jesus for washing me white as snow.

 

[Jimbone]

I may have to confess to being a faction man. There is power in that blood, and when God looks at me, that's all He sees. You may still see me as a sinner, but He sees me as a saint.

Paul had an interesting method of teaching. Before he stepped up to the mic, he would put on the shoes of a sinner-man and take upon himself that role. When one looks at Romans 7:24 (above), one will see that he is assuming the position of an unsaved man; a man that has not been rescued yet. That is the method that He employs all through Romans 7. In Romans 8, He takes off the sinner-man's shoes and shows us the difference that salvation has wrought. He tells us what he and we are now; more than conquerors through Him that loved us. (Romans 8:37)


In 1 Tim 1:15 (above) Paul is obviously referring to his past; I am a man with a terrible past. It was gruesome indeed, but now he is washed whiter than snow.

I apologize on the part of my fellow factioneers for any cruel and judgmental accusations we may have hurled against you.

God bless.

Amen brother, and thank you for that illustration, I have not ever heard that about Paul, but it makes sense. The disconnect always seems to be the "change" that happens once He saves us. Does it make us completely sinless and perfect? No, but it DOES change our whole outlook and discernment towards sin, and gives us a passion and strength to stay away from it in a way that was IMPOSSIBLE for us to do on our own power, and that is why all glory goes to Him. If you say you do your best to walk with Christ and sin very little anymore, and even when you do sin it's out of ignorance of the particular sin, or a rash reaction that you immediately regret because the Holy Spirit lets you know, then you are labeled "unsaved". "I feel" that a Christian cannot allow himself to sin away knowingly, period. I don't know how anyone that has felt the regenerative power of our savior can argue these points, but it's not for me to "convince" anyone else, all we can do is speak the truth He's put in us, and let God do His work.

 

[Jimbone]

if paul was speaking of the sinner, he would have used past tense. He did not. he used present tense.

He said this is occuring right now as I speak "That I do not want to do I do" this is proven by how he ends it.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.

things to note.

1. delivers, present tense.
2. In mind, slave to Gods law. This is impossible in the pre saved state, we can do no good.

chapter 7 is the struggle all christians go through chapter 8 is how we deal with it.

Ok, so your point is, "Christians you can sin away because see here, Paul did it"? I mean what are you trying to say? It's ok for a Christian to commit any sin they want and still be ok? I really just want to know what the MAIN POINT you're trying to convey is.

 

[secularhermit]

I´m a sinner! Less than yesterday.

 

[tourist]

I´m a sinner! Less than yesterday.

I'm a sinner too. Less than yesterday but more than tomorrow.

 

[sassylady]

We are covered by the Blood of Jesus, we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In our physical bodies we are sinners, but because of Jesus' sacrifice God does not see us that way and we shouldn't either.

 

[TKICBS]

We are covered by the Blood of Jesus, we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In our physical bodies we are sinners, but because of Jesus' sacrifice God does not see us that way and we shouldn't either.

AMEM! Don't concentrate on the sin, concentrate on the savior and He will deliver you from the sin. I will not do what I know grieves God. I want His fellowship every second of the day.

 

[Bride]

A Christian has two natures. The first is his sin nature the second is his new nature in Christ. These two natures war against each other until the Christian is glorified together with his Lord.

To claim one is sinless is to sin. It is the sin of pride and presumption to consider oneself unable to sin. Christians have an advocate with the Father so that when we sin we can confess it and be forgiven. The Holy Spirit bring conviction of sin so we are made aware of our sin.

Paul struggled with the dual natures and wanted to do what pleased the Lord yet often found himself to fall short and do that which he did not want to do.

The necessities of the body which is flesh competes with the necessities of the Spirit is of Christ. The closer I draw to Christ the more I see I have a great deal more separation from Him. The holiness and purity of God far exceeds anything I can even imagine let alone perform.

I can only bear the fruit that the Vine produces in me. That is all God expects of me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus had two natures. He fought against his temptations. He warred constantly.

That didn't make him a sinner. Being tempted isn't a sin, if that is what you are attempting to put out there.

To claim one is sinless is either rejoicing in what the Gospel in Christ has accomplished in them, or the person is a liar and "self" righteous, as the verse indicates in 1 John. But unless you ARE in fact sinless, you are of the devil still and have not given Christ your life to accomplish overcoming sin in your life.

So you still sin then? What did you sin at today? or yesterday? Let us help you, we will extend our hand and pull you out of your fire if you find you still sin. Your garment is spotted by the flesh and you are ok with that?

(Jud 1:23)
and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


My sin used to be fornication, lying and petty theft. All sins. Dark. Dirty. Fleshly. Lusty... I was powerless against them. But now in Christ, He deals with those temptations and I do not live that way anymore. There has been a transformation by the Holy Spirit. In Great Joy! I let Christ rule my life. There is NO ROOM FOR SIN in my life for I hate sin and Jesus OWNS me and keeps me from the evil one. Just pray the Lord's prayer, ask Him to keep you from the evil one and He will

This is the Gospel. Does anyone here know the power of the Gospel of Christ and being forgiven and washed and cleansed and made holy and pure and perfect as our Father in Heaven? Or is there no faith left on this God forsaken planet?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, so your point is, "Christians you can sin away because see here, Paul did it"?

Paul did not say he wanted to sin, or it was ok to sin (he said the opposite many times)

I mean what are you trying to say? It's ok for a Christian to commit any sin they want and still be ok? I really just want to know what the MAIN POINT you're trying to convey is.

there is a huge difference between the flesh overcoming, and us being selfish (sin)..... and going out and living like the world (living in sin)

Paul understood this, and he was not arrogant enough to say he was sinless. he knew of the struggle. If Paul in all his knowledge and experience struggled. how dare we say we are better than he and never struggle with any sin.

 

[Bride]

Thats is what Paul states. If we seek after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Thats is what Paul states. If we seek after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

EXACTLY.
You are correct.

So if you still sin sir, and you are still a sinner sir, you are not seeking after the spirit and are still fulfilling your lust then. And that is some serious stuff to consider long before attempting to be a teacher on it.

This is what I've been trying to persuade you to embrace all along, so that you can be a Saint. My interest is in your salvation, truly. To help you in your obvious struggle against unconquered sin in your life.


There is no two ways about it.

 

[Jimbone]

Paul did not say he wanted to sin, or it was ok to sin (he said the opposite many times)



there is a huge difference between the flesh overcoming, and us being selfish (sin)..... and going out and living like the world (living in sin)

Paul understood this, and he was not arrogant enough to say he was sinless. he knew of the struggle. If Paul in all his knowledge and experience struggled. how dare we say we are better than he and never struggle with any sin.

Well I agree with you then (I'm sure that is very important to you /s), it's just so easy to come to the wrong conclusion sometimes from one single comment. I agree we can never be sinless before or after we are saved, but there is a DRASTIC change in how often we do so, and our whole outlook and discernment of sin is COMPLETELTY different. Again, we can never be perfect, but through the Spirit guiding us we can combat the sin in our lives like we never could before on our own steam.

Thank you for answering in a coherent way so we could be a little more clear on where each other stands. I've just seen, and been a part of, this argument so much lately and noticed that a lot of debate is getting hot when both people basically believe the same things, they just haven't taken the time to find out exactly what the other believes before they jump to rash conclusions formed after reading a single comment, or even a part of a single comment. I could have done this to you on that last comment, but once simple question asking you what your "main point" was completely changed how I interpreted what you wrote the first time. Thank you brother, and I agree with you. (again not trying to make it sound like me agreeing with you means anything at all, I just do)

 

[Bride]

why is it dangerous? because

1. Your not admitting the sin in your life
2. Your not humbly coming to the cross. and admitting you do not deserve (even now) the grace gift of God
3. You can not be healed by the sin you have in your life (your hiding it, Do not know about it, or are decieved by it)
4. You come off as judgemental, hypocritical, and false to the rest of the world.

You don't think he repented of his sins?
Point 1) you get an F. You are a false witness and an accuser of the brethren. You don't have a clue, yet you just judged unrighteously opposite of what has been demonstrated and disclosed by this Saint. You should be ashamed.

You said this person hasn't come to the cross nor availed himself of the grace of God.
That is an evil judgement to make on this person. Who would make such an accusation besides satan himself?
Point 2) you get a double F on this one.

You said this person is hiding their sin in deceit, and not only that, but "can't be healed from sin".
Wow.
Point 3) Triple FFF and detention. And maybe a mouth washed out with soap for your evil words.

And point 4) get's the biggest mark, expulsion. Not only is that a blatant lie toward that person, but you have just demonstrated the ultimate in judgement and hypocrisy second only to Caiphas himself. You better look up pretty quick sir. Your aversion to righteousness in Christ, and your aversion to the people that preach it, are evident. But when has that ever been different for the Saints. Just another day in the neighborhood of this powerless, wicked and sinful generation.

You fail miserably. What are you even doing here in this place? You need help sir. Lots of it. You need all of Christ Jesus you can get.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thats is what Paul states. If we seek after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

EXACTLY.
You are correct.

So if you still sin sir, and you are still a sinner sir, you are not seeking after the spirit and are still fulfilling your lust then. And that is some serious stuff to consider long before attempting to be a teacher on it.

This is what I've been trying to persuade you to embrace all along, so that you can be a Saint. My interest is in your salvation, truly. To help you in your obvious struggle against unconquered sin in your life.


There is no two ways about it.

first off. I will only be a saint (set apart) by the blood of Christ.
Second. I will never be sinless
third. I can not follow the spirit 24/7, no one can. Yes we can walk around and say we do not murder, commit adultry, Lie cheat and steal. But does this make us better than anyone else? We still have sins we struggle with. To say we do not. would be a dangerous thing.