What of the dinosaurs?

[ColinCat]

Jack, I've never heard a parent who was not a school teacher say anything like that. Most don't care. I didn't catch the 6,000 year idea until I was in my thirties. It would be interesting to see a poll in some churches asking how old do creation scientists say the earth is. You are likely to get answers like "Well, the dinosaurs died off millions of years ago, so they probably would say many millions?" That's all I got about that all the way through high school and college. Eventually I came across it online in a chat room. That's when I heard of such a thing as a creation scientist, from an evolutionist.

Ive got to be honest I'd never heard of the 6000 year old earth until Christopher Hitchens of all people mentioned it. And when I did hear it kind of reinforced my disbelief even further because all I'd heard before was a millions of years case. The juxtaposition made me think even less of Christianity than I already did.

There's a lot to be said for what you've been told all your life and how hard it is to accept new information that is the direct oppposite to what you think you already know. This applies to both sides of our dividing fence.

 

[JackH]

Jack, I've never heard a parent who was not a school teacher say anything like that. Most don't care. I didn't catch the 6,000 year idea until I was in my thirties. It would be interesting to see a poll in some churches asking how old do creation scientists say the earth is. You are likely to get answers like "Well, the dinosaurs died off millions of years ago, so they probably would say many millions?" That's all I got about that all the way through high school and college. Eventually I came across it online in a chat room. That's when I heard of such a thing as a creation scientist, from an evolutionist.

Somebody must care about teaching creationism in public schools since bills keep getting introduced in state legislatures.

But no matter how much lobbying by Young Earth Creationist organizations like Institute for Creation Research, it isn't going to happen on any widespread level, in my opinion.

All major federal court cases in the U.S. in the past 40 or so years pertaining to getting creationism taught as science in public schools have failed. The decision being ultimately that creationism is not science.

I don't particularly object to creationism being taught in public schools as "philosophy" or whatever, just not science.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I was hanging out with a former darwinist atheist friend of mine and we were discussing the dinosaurs. It was quite a fun discussion really as both of us are former atheists that no longer believe in the evolution or old earth fairytales. As where I am more of a humanist in secular thought, my friend is a very keen naturalist. My friend has not read the Bible nor goes to church I want to note. My friend does not think creationism should be taught in the science classroom, but he also does not believe evolution should be taught either by reason it is not scientific, with science being defined as experimentation and observation of physical proofs.

One of the big points of our discussion was the implications of the soft tissue finds and how people within the academic and scientific communities are coerced and/or punished if they publish or publicly speak out against the evolution and old earth mythologies. Here is a very interesting article we dug up from earlier this year in which a scientist whom purportedly discovered the largest triceratops horn found soft tissue and published his finds and analyses that this necessarily disproves the Industrial Age Myth that dinosaurs existed 60 million years ago. For this reason he was immediately terminated from his position, had his funding cut, and a propaganda smear campaign against his character was launched.

Lawsuit: CSUN Scientist Fired After Soft Tissue Found On Dinosaur Fossil

 

[Human]

I'm assuming no amount of evidence will convince you dinosaurs lived millions of years before humans?

Scientists aren't supporting evolution just because it's the only way they can get grants. This claim is completely unfounded. Good scientists get grants. The reason most of these scientists support evolution is because creationism literally isn't science, nor does science support creationism.

So what is the falsifiability of the theory of evolution? You know the statement that is derived from the principle upon which the theory is validated to demonstrate that if proven truth then the theory is false.

Such as the reason man can't walk on water is because of the gravity, mass, etc. For example, the falisifiability of the theory that man can't walk on water in the liquid state would be that of man walking on water. So therefore of all the people on earth there is none of that can so we know that the principle that comprises that theory is, was, and will be true and righteous.

Now the evolutionist theory holds that all life on earth originated from a 'Single Ancestor', I would buy that if the Spirit was flesh, or rather mass. However, on the other hand they claim that man did not originate from a single set of procreators, or the 'Adam&Eve' doctrine of creationist. So while they dismiss 'Adam&Eve' doctrine of creationist, they themselves establish a single set of procreators unless they are now claiming mass mutations , so what kind of BS is that?

So if the Bible says man evolved would that be a falsifiable since atheist say everything in the Bible is a lie, which evolutionist can not believe in a God if God does not exist. So if true then why don't they have no falsifiability for their theory?

The fact that variations occur within genetic reproduction don't support evolution if those variations can be quantified. And the fact that genetic variations exceeded those that would be found from a single set of procreators discounts creationist but not us procreationist that hold that the creationist do not have any right to their private interpretation to the scriptures that only one male and female was created.

There's no definite moment when ape became 'human', but even if there was, you still have billions of procreatory specimens with varying degrees of genetic mutational progress coming before that first homo sapiens sapiens. The advent of homo sapeins sapiens is not the same thing as the advent of life. You've used a false correlation when you say that evolutionists make a false claim by stating life didn't come from a single set of procreators but from a common ancestor. That common ancestor is a single celled organism, not a complex hominid with binary sexes.

 

[secularhermit]

But they existed and lizards are the shorter version.

 

[Human]

But they existed and lizards are the shorter version.

Or I guess it's just a worldwide scientific conspiracy to teach and educate millions of people about the fundamental nature of matter and spacetime to allow them to study and give their entire life's work to a sham system dedicated to creating false dinosaur fossils from lots of calcium and phosphorus so we can all be convinced that God isn't real.

Have a look at Occam's Razor. Literalism with Genesis is the problem.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Somebody must care about teaching creationism in public schools since bills keep getting introduced in state legislatures.

But no matter how much lobbying by Young Earth Creationist organizations like Institute for Creation Research, it isn't going to happen on any widespread level, in my opinion.

All major federal court cases in the U.S. in the past 40 or so years pertaining to getting creationism taught as science in public schools have failed. The decision being ultimately that creationism is not science.

I don't particularly object to creationism being taught in public schools as "philosophy" or whatever, just not science.

I think you need to actually look up SCOTUS decisions about these issues. You might be very surprised. We've experienced a few legal challenges from FFR, ACLU, etc that initially terrify school admins to react drastically. But there are excellent Christian legal counsels that come in pro bono, having only to pass out brochures explaining our rights, the legal decisions, and make a few friendly phone calls from superintendent office phones. They are back to the airport in a few hours, the crisis over. You might not be familiar with variously named "lab" projects allowing exceptional students to help other students, actually leading classroom projects. Student to student creation science instruction is not illegal. Neither is studying the Bible in school for learning ancient history. Student led prayer is OK, though that does invoke frequent challenges requiring more courageous actions by students demanding their rights be enforced. Teachers and admins organize curriculum so there is plenty of quality time to include other topis.

There are a lot of young people who have been taught both sides together in private and Christian schools. Many rural public schools have taught both for many years, not having anyone come along challenging. In communities dominated by Christians that sort of thing, like "Prayer around the Pole" every year, Christmas displays, Bibles in classrooms, etc are common.

It is all turning around very slowly. Many well educated students will soon vote, while poll workers are saying typical teens eligible to vote are not showing up. The more educated the student, the more exposed to more than minimum knowledge, the more informed as a voter, and the more active to engage in community support.

By typical teens, I have always required face to face job applicants, no online apps, no mail-ins. They get a three page application. Most sit staring at it, wanting to take it home then bring it back. I say "I want to see you write." I will not let them have someone do it for them. They can't often read and comprehend statements written for a 12th grade student. That is a national shame. When a private or Christian high school graduate applies they always fill it out in minutes, legibly and coherently, showing lots of maturity and respect, good posture, tasteful dress, well groomed, alertness, and glad hope. Those are not typical teens. They are exceptional, but my hope is our youth will be mostly typically brilliant sooner than foreign workers take the last of good jobs. They are taught manners and work ethics all through their grade school years. Imposing bans and restrictions on students concerning any popular topic is like the old RCC stopping any scientist claiming a round world. Let their eyes be opened, see what a citizen should be like.

 

[Human]

I think you need to actually look up SCOTUS decisions about these issues. You might be very surprised. We've experienced a few legal challenges from FFR, ACLU, etc that initially terrify school admins to react drastically. But there are excellent Christian legal counsels that come in pro bono, having only to pass out brochures explaining our rights, the legal decisions, and make a few friendly phone calls from superintendent office phones. They are back to the airport in a few hours, the crisis over. You might not be familiar with variously named "lab" projects allowing exceptional students to help other students, actually leading classroom projects. Student to student creation science instruction is not illegal. Neither is studying the Bible in school for learning ancient history. Student led prayer is OK, though that does invoke frequent challenges requiring more courageous actions by students demanding their rights be enforced. Teachers and admins organize curriculum so there is plenty of quality time to include other topis.

There are a lot of young people who have been taught both sides together in private and Christian schools. Many rural public schools have taught both for many years, not having anyone come along challenging. In communities dominated by Christians that sort of thing, like "Prayer around the Pole" every year, Christmas displays, Bibles in classrooms, etc are common.

It is all turning around very slowly. Many well educated students will soon vote, while poll workers are saying typical teens eligible to vote are not showing up. The more educated the student, the more exposed to more than minimum knowledge, the more informed as a voter, and the more active to engage in community support.

By typical teens, I have always required face to face job applicants, no online apps, no mail-ins. They get a three page application. Most sit staring at it, wanting to take it home then bring it back. I say "I want to see you write." I will not let them have someone do it for them. They can't often read and comprehend statements written for a 12th grade student. That is a national shame. When a private or Christian high school graduate applies they always fill it out in minutes, legibly and coherently, showing lots of maturity and respect, good posture, tasteful dress, well groomed, alertness, and glad hope. Those are not typical teens. They are exceptional, but my hope is our youth will be mostly typically brilliant sooner than foreign workers take the last of good jobs. They are taught manners and work ethics all through their grade school years. Imposing bans and restrictions on students concerning any popular topic is like the old RCC stopping any scientist claiming a round world. Let their eyes be opened, see what a citizen should be like.

I find it slightly disturbing that you use the apparently contrasting academic successes of public schools and Christian institutions to promote 'creation-science' as the answer to the sub standard quality of the USA public education system, particularly when statistical evidence seems to disprove the hypothesis.

In the UK, it's illegal to teach creationism as a science. 20 years ago creationism and religious teaching standards were normal, and the A-Level (the exam used to allow students into university, whose material stands far above SAT level difficulty) results were considerably worse than they are now. The average number of A students 20 years ago was around 15%, now that's closer to 30%, with a vast, vast majority being public schoolkids. In fact, only 19% of students fail an A level exam, compared to the USA's 58% failure rate at SAT level - absolutely shocking.

Take into account that around 80% of Americans are Christian, while less than 40% of Britons are, and it's not hard to see that the prevalence of religion doesn't seem to correlate positively to the prevalence of academic success.

Creationism isn't the answer to the education problem, nor is religion. The answer is to engage with kids and properly fund public schools; to invest with a view to widespread academic successes, rather than propping up the 'good' schools and leaving the failing ones to rot.

 

[JackH]

I think you need to actually look up SCOTUS decisions about these issues. You might be very surprised.

I'm quite familiar with all the federal decisions on these issues.

The last SCOTUS decision was 27 years ago, Edwards v. Aguilland. By a 7-2 vote, the SC struck down teaching creation science in public schools.

Since then there have been several major cases at the federal level with the same result. The chances appear to be slim and none that this issue will make it back to the Supreme Court any time soon. Oh sure, somebody will get a bill introduced in a state legislature, but it won't likely go far.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I find it slightly disturbing that you use the apparently contrasting academic successes of public schools and Christian institutions to promote 'creation-science' as the answer to the sub standard quality of the USA public education system, particularly when statistical evidence seems to disprove the hypothesis.

In the UK, it's illegal to teach creationism as a science. 20 years ago creationism and religious teaching standards were normal, and the A-Level (the exam used to allow students into university, whose material stands far above SAT level difficulty) results were considerably worse than they are now. The average number of A students 20 years ago was around 15%, now that's closer to 30%, with a vast, vast majority being public schoolkids. In fact, only 19% of students fail an A level exam, compared to the USA's 58% failure rate at SAT level - absolutely shocking.

Take into account that around 80% of Americans are Christian, while less than 40% of Britons are, and it's not hard to see that the prevalence of religion doesn't seem to correlate positively to the prevalence of academic success.

Creationism isn't the answer to the education problem, nor is religion. The answer is to engage with kids and properly fund public schools; to invest with a view to widespread academic successes, rather than propping up the 'good' schools and leaving the failing ones to rot.

80% of America think their Christian ... Difference
Hear it all the time, look what this one did and that one ..they were "christian" ...stop it already

Creationism, its the truth, the truth will always be the right answer...

 

[Bride]

Ive got to be honest I'd never heard of the 6000 year old earth until Christopher Hitchens of all people mentioned it. And when I did hear it kind of reinforced my disbelief even further because all I'd heard before was a millions of years case. The juxtaposition made me think even less of Christianity than I already did.

There's a lot to be said for what you've been told all your life and how hard it is to accept new information that is the direct oppposite to what you think you already know. This applies to both sides of our dividing fence.

It is only a splinter group of Christians who throw out all the evidence, and blindly believe that. Many of us who have accepted Christ recognize that millions upon millions of years have elapsed without there being one whit of contradiction in Scriptures. Most people just don't know how to read scriptures is all.
Another post I made with a weak attempt to suggest to all who might read, is that not all Christians are without resources aside from blind faith. Faith that can see all, and knowledge that can perceive all, when it comes together, is beautiful!
Scriptures is not a paper on creation. The six days are figurative. They "mean" something concerning our New Creation in Christ, which is the only reason it is mentioned in Genesis. A "Day" is countless years over and over in scriptures. Yet the "creationists" have no understanding of that, they simply rehearse what their youth group pastor told them, or someone who got bad grades in archeology and geology. Please don't let the simple ones decide your fate in accepting Jesus. Because if any of us depending on another person's beliefs or ideas, none of us would have any hope, let alone even two legs to stand on. Peace friend.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

It is only a splinter group of Christians who throw out all the evidence, and blindly believe that. Many of us who have accepted Christ recognize that millions upon millions of years have elapsedQUOTE]

When you talk about evidence, I would like to see said evidence for millions of years of earth existing. Thus far there is absolutely zero evidence for such a claim. The basis for the claim of millions of years comes from two things. Firstly radio-atomic dating which has been proven to be wildly unreliable and inaccurate. The second is dating fossils by rock layers and rock layers by fossils, which of course is illogical. The Old Earth Mythology and its associated unproven or disproven theories is a relatively recent invention as well, and can only be traced back to about 200 years ago.

The only actual evidence that exists is historical writings and archaeological artifacts that supports the historical evidences of cultures that once existed (ie: Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, Ancient Israel, etc.) All this actual evidence only points to about 4000-5000 years of existence after a massive worldwide cataclysm which is popularly referred to as The Flood, an event spoken of by all the ancientmost cultures. Granting an age before the Flood does indeed extend the known age of the earth by a bit, but not by millions of years.

 

[JackH]

It is only a splinter group of Christians who throw out all the evidence, and blindly believe that. Many of us who have accepted Christ recognize that millions upon millions of years have elapsedQUOTE]

When you talk about evidence, I would like to see said evidence for millions of years of earth existing. Thus far there is absolutely zero evidence for such a claim.

There are some who write books claiming the Holocaust never happened.

Your posts remind me of that sort of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

There are some who write books claiming the Holocaust never happened.

Your posts remind me of that sort of intellectual dishonesty.

Well unfortunately for those people we can examine historical textts by Holocaust survivors, view historical footage of the concentration camps, in fact many of the camps still exist unto this day as memorials, and of course the nazi's own records on such event are coming to light.

There's plenty of books written on evolution and old earth mythology starting from the 1800s AD to now. So the comparison to Holocaust deniers whom lack proof is a very good comparison to the Old Earth Mythology. Consider how not only are both written well after the fact, both lack actual proof, and in fact the proof contradicts said claims.

 

[JackH]

There's plenty of books written on evolution and old earth mythology starting from the 1800s AD to now. So the comparison to Holocaust deniers whom lack proof is a very good comparison to the Old Earth Mythology. Consider how not only are both written well after the fact, both lack actual proof, and in fact the proof contradicts said claims.

The date 4004 BC used to be printed in King James Bibles Bibles next to the verses in Genesis 1.

Why do you suppose that date was taken out?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The date 4004 BC used to be printed in King James Bibles Bibles next to the verses in Genesis 1.

Why do you suppose that date was taken out?

Depends who the publisher was lol. Lol you do realize a revisionist's commentary added thousands of years after the Bible was written proves nothing, right?

 

[JackH]

Depends who the publisher was lol. Lol you do realize a revisionist's commentary added thousands of years after the Bible was written proves nothing, right?

Oh, can you purchase Bibles with the date 4004 BC next to the verses in Genesis 1 today?

What revisionist commentary are you talking about? Ussher's?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Oh, can you purchase Bibles with the date 4004 BC next to the verses in Genesis 1 today?

What revisionist commentary are you talking about? Ussher's?

Lol you might be able to, you can buy just about anything these days if you look hard enough.

A revisionist's commentary would be like as you described where someone added dates into the Bible that are not in the actual text. Typically these come in the form of footnotes or an introduction or summary of a chapter. This is sadly very common anymore with many ancient literature works. For another example, if you have ever read The Travels by Marco Polo (great read which I highly recommend btw) many modern copies contain revisionist footnotes trying to irrationalize away Messer Marco's original content to fit it into a modern day setting.

 

[Bride]

It is only a splinter group of Christians who throw out all the evidence, and blindly believe that. Many of us who have accepted Christ recognize that millions upon millions of years have elapsedQUOTE]

When you talk about evidence, I would like to see said evidence for millions of years of earth existing. Thus far there is absolutely zero evidence for such a claim. The basis for the claim of millions of years comes from two things. Firstly radio-atomic dating which has been proven to be wildly unreliable and inaccurate. The second is dating fossils by rock layers and rock layers by fossils, which of course is illogical. The Old Earth Mythology and its associated unproven or disproven theories is a relatively recent invention as well, and can only be traced back to about 200 years ago.

The only actual evidence that exists is historical writings and archaeological artifacts that supports the historical evidences of cultures that once existed (ie: Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, Ancient Israel, etc.) All this actual evidence only points to about 4000-5000 years of existence after a massive worldwide cataclysm which is popularly referred to as The Flood, an event spoken of by all the ancientmost cultures. Granting an age before the Flood does indeed extend the known age of the earth by a bit, but not by millions of years.

You are quite mistaken. It you push such nonsense, especially when a person's potential faith is shaken because of such nonsense, that is a serious error before the Lord. The man I was replying to expressed dismay at those who say such things, possibly and probably enough to affect his accepting Jesus. Then you come back with canned nonsense to show him to steer clear of Christians? I don't blame him. Instead, shouldn't a person be out preaching Christ, and in the meantime studying up on the extremely accurate radio-atomic dating procedures from someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

[JackH]

A revisionist's commentary would be like as you described where someone added dates into the Bible that are not in the actual text.

So you agree Ussher's dates should have never been in the Bible, it appears.

Who do you think is the one person most responsible for the dogma that the world began around 6,000 years ago?