Question for Hizikyah, or Others

[Sirk]

if it were he would not have asked...if you think in your mind it is impossible...then you lack faith and have already failed even before you start...

I asked a question.....what about you....can faithfully fulfill all that the righteousness of God requires of you to the letter?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No sir, the error in this disagreement belongs totally to you. Echo is an English transliteration of the Greek ἔχω (1st person singular is usually used when referring to a Greek verb). As used in John 3:16 ἔχῃ is parsed: 3rd Person Singular Present Active Subjunctive.

If you don't believe me, check out Blueletterbible.com or Bible Hub and you'll find the correct parsing.

For example from John 3:16 on Bible Hub: εχη verb - present active subjunctive - third person singular
echo ekh'-o: (used in certain tenses only) a primary verb; to hold

As noted before a present active verb represents linear or continuous action and does not reflect "present continuing result from a past completed action" as you're suggesting!!! ἔχῃ is not an aorist.

For what it's worth ἔχῃ is subjunctive because it is part of a ἵνα (hina) clause.

you can not pick and chose what words you want to play with, and diregard everything else said in the passage.

you are correct on what type of words were used,

Your incorrect in your interpretation because you skipped the most important part of the passage.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sad but true. All those who hold that one can lose one's salvation consequently must hold to that there is something one can do to gain one's salvation, again and again even. They must hold to a conditionalism which places the condition for salvation on the work of the sinner NOT the work and the person of Christ alone. What a damnable anti-christian doctrine of devils! I believe God hates such doctrines. Amen.

I agree for sure....it places the ability to be saved, keep one's self saved upon the individual and not upon the faith of Jesus....it seems people who believe you can loose it are ignorant of a few words...here are their definitions

eternal=not eternal, but conditional
everlasting=temporary
of Christ=of myself
not of works=by my works
a gift of God=earned by my own good works
grace=earned by works
mercy=don't need it I am good enough

The simple truth is people who say you can loose it never had it to begin with...nor will they have it as long as they trust in their abilities, works and continuing failure to keep EVERY LAW written while doing EVERY WORK commanded....such hypocrisy and what a slap to the face of Jesus and a denial of his perfect FAITH which is what saves us and eternally justifies us based upon faith.....! Galatians 2:16-21

 

[kennethcadwell]

Sad but true. All those who hold that one can lose one's salvation consequently must hold to that there is something one can do to gain one's salvation, again and again even. They must hold to a conditionalism which places the condition for salvation on the work of the sinner NOT the work and the person of Christ alone. What a damnable anti-christian doctrine of devils! I believe God hates such doctrines. Amen.

So I guess you and others who believe a person can not walk away from the faith, and loose their salvation have an issue with the truth the Holy Spirit speaks;

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So I guess you and others who believe a person can not walk away from the faith, and loose their salvation have an issue with the truth the Holy Spirit speaks;

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

This does not say people will walk away and lose salvation.

it says in the last days, the churches will do exactly what they are doing today, turn from God, and turn to all kinds of licentious, evil, and false doctrines.

We see it today, it is being fulfilled.

I am surprised you could not put 2 and 2 together

 

[BradC]

So I guess you and others who believe a person can not walk away from the faith, and loose their salvation have an issue with the truth the Holy Spirit speaks;

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

In the last days some shall depart from the faith, faith in the finished work of Christ, faith in the mercy and grace of God that justifies the ungodly sinner, faith in the promises of God, faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, faith in that God has not appointed the believer unto wrath and faith that declares there is no condemnation unto those who are in Christ. These who depart will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrine of devils that take away from the cross and the finished work of the cross, that trample and take away from the blood atonement, that do away with those who teach sound doctrine and doctrines that bring railing accusations against the members of Christ's body continually who are Spirit-filled and lay down their lives for one another.

All of this is a seduction process to get certain ones to drink from the cup and to eat from the table of devils. These doctrines will seduce certain ones into idolatry and into a system of faith where individuals do what is right in their own eyes (understanding) because they have their own brand of faith to do just as they please. They will live a life pleasing to themselves but not to God and call it living the gospel. They will be people oriented and have a legitimate concern for others but it will be without a cross and without the blood having a place in those relationships. They will adorn themselves with forms of covetousness that will be paraded as God's blessings of righteousness upon them because of the appearance and admiration that will come from others. However, inwardly their is no renewal in their heart, only envy, strife, jealousy, comparing with others because of being vainly puffed up in their fleshly mind.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

So I guess you and others who believe a person can not walk away from the faith, and loose their salvation have an issue with the truth the Holy Spirit speaks;

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I guess you and others who think they can lose their salvation have an issue with context, because none of the passages you use to support your erroneous view actually do so, but as with this passage, speak of those who profess faith but do not actually adhere to it, or who embrace a false doctrine from the beginning. But then, you didn't quote the whole passage, 1 TImothy 4:1-6, which would clarify the kind of "faith" from which an apparent believer, who actually is not, could walk away.

1 Timothy 4, NASB
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. [Emphasis mine]

​

You love to cite verses that would, out of context as you use them, support the absolutely heretical belief that anyone so faithfully saved by Jesus Christ could possibly walk away from that faith which did not originate with them, and which they cannot cling to through the "works" of faith. You choose to walk in fear -- at least you must, because if one can lose their salvation, you are just as liable to do so as any one of us. Yet I note with irony that none of you who claim salvation can be forfeited ever consider that you may have done so yourselves.

 

[Sirk]

I guess you and others who think they can lose their salvation have an issue with context, because none of the passages you use to support your erroneous view actually do so, but as with this passage, speak of those who profess faith but do not actually adhere to it, or who embrace a false doctrine from the beginning. But then, you didn't quote the whole passage, 1 TImothy 4:1-6, which would clarify the kind of "faith" from which an apparent believer, who actually is not, could walk away.

1 Timothy 4, NASB
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. [Emphasis mine]

​

You love to cite verses that would, out of context as you use them, support the absolutely heretical belief that anyone so faithfully saved by Jesus Christ could possibly walk away from that faith which did not originate with them, and which they cannot cling to through the "works" of faith. You choose to walk in fear -- at least you must, because if one can lose their salvation, you are just as liable to do so as any one of us. Yet I note with irony that none of you who claim salvation can be forfeited ever consider that you may have done so yourselves.

I was thinking the same thing. What is that saying...."careful thou doth not protest too much"

 

[kennethcadwell]

This does not say people will walk away and lose salvation.

it says in the last days, the churches will do exactly what they are doing today, turn from God, and turn to all kinds of licentious, evil, and false doctrines.

We see it today, it is being fulfilled.

I am surprised you could not put 2 and 2 together

In the last days some shall depart from the faith, faith in the finished work of Christ, faith in the mercy and grace of God that justifies the ungodly sinner, faith in the promises of God, faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, faith in that God has not appointed the believer unto wrath and faith that declares there is no condemnation unto those who are in Christ. These who depart will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrine of devils that take away from the cross and the finished work of the cross, that trample and take away from the blood atonement, that do away with those who teach sound doctrine and doctrines that bring railing accusations against the members of Christ's body continually who are Spirit-filled and lay down their lives for one another.

All of this is a seduction process to get certain ones to drink from the cup and to eat from the table of devils. These doctrines will seduce certain ones into idolatry and into a system of faith where individuals do what is right in their own eyes (understanding) because they have their own brand of faith to do just as they please. They will live a life pleasing to themselves but not to God and call it living the gospel. They will be people oriented and have a legitimate concern for others but it will be without a cross and without the blood having a place in those relationships. They will adorn themselves with forms of covetousness that will be paraded as God's blessings of righteousness upon them because of the appearance and admiration that will come from others. However, inwardly their is no renewal in their heart, only envy, strife, jealousy, comparing with others because of being vainly puffed up in their fleshly mind.

I guess you and others who think they can lose their salvation have an issue with context, because none of the passages you use to support your erroneous view actually do so, but as with this passage, speak of those who profess faith but do not actually adhere to it, or who embrace a false doctrine from the beginning. But then, you didn't quote the whole passage, 1 TImothy 4:1-6, which would clarify the kind of "faith" from which an apparent believer, who actually is not, could walk away.

1 Timothy 4, NASB
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. [Emphasis mine]

​

You love to cite verses that would, out of context as you use them, support the absolutely heretical belief that anyone so faithfully saved by Jesus Christ could possibly walk away from that faith which did not originate with them, and which they cannot cling to through the "works" of faith. You choose to walk in fear -- at least you must, because if one can lose their salvation, you are just as liable to do so as any one of us. Yet I note with irony that none of you who claim salvation can be forfeited ever consider that you may have done so yourselves.

Well it looks like you three still have an issue with what the Holy Spirit says, because if you all three keep reading in that chapter it says that you must continue to walk in the ways of Lord, sound doctrine He taught, and do not neglect the gifts given to you also. For those who continue to do those things will save themselves and their hears......

[h=1]1 Timothy 4:15-16[/h]15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


Those who don't continue as the Holy Spirit says in verse one, do not end up being saved !!!

 

[Splagna]

The law had sacrifices for many sins, and named them off for each type of sacrifice.

The once a year sacrifice (day of atonement) took care of all sin, intentional, defiant, or not.

Lev 16: [SUP]16 [/SUP]So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for ALL their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

You left out verse 17 from that passage: [SUP]17 [/SUP]When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel (NASB).

Now note what's written in Numbers 15:30: [SUP] [SUP]30 [/SUP]But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. [/SUP](NASB).

The atonement in Leviticus is for the assembly of Israel. If one is cut of, as in the Numbers passage, one is no longer part of the assembly of Israel, so the passages you quoted wouldn't apply to the cut off ones because they would not be part of all Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well it looks like you three still have an issue with what the Holy Spirit says, because if you all three keep reading in that chapter it says that you must continue to walk in the ways of Lord, sound doctrine He taught, and do not neglect the gifts given to you also. For those who continue to do those things will save themselves and their hears......

1 Timothy 4:15-16

15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


Those who don't continue as the Holy Spirit says in verse one, do not end up being saved !!!

well it looks like you do not know context. or the proper use of words.

According to your interpretation, Timothy is not yet saved. Yet scripture teaches against this.

He can save his ministry and use that to help save others. But paul is not telling him if he did not, he would lose his salvation. that goes against scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You left out verse 17 from that passage: [SUP]17 [/SUP]When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel (NASB).

Now note what's written in Numbers 15:30: [SUP] [SUP]30 [/SUP]But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. [/SUP](NASB).

The atonement in Leviticus is for the assembly of Israel. If one is cut of, as in the Numbers passage, one is no longer part of the assembly of Israel, so the passages you quoted wouldn't apply to the cut off ones because they would not be part of all Israel.

Nice try, They are cast out because they blasphemed God.

John says in his epistle. a child of God can not sin, because the spirit of God is in him (so much for taking scripture as a whole to support your theory) If a child of God can not sin, they would never blaspheme God.

So let me guess, you are one of those who wish to excuse your sin, and say you do not do it knowingly? and because of that, your ok?

You can join your pharisee brothers and sisters, they thought the same thing.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I guess you and others who think they can lose their salvation have an issue with context, because none of the passages you use to support your erroneous view actually do so, but as with this passage, speak of those who profess faith but do not actually adhere to it, or who embrace a false doctrine from the beginning. But then, you didn't quote the whole passage, 1 TImothy 4:1-6, which would clarify the kind of "faith" from which an apparent believer, who actually is not, could walk away.

1 Timothy 4, NASB
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. [Emphasis mine]

​

You love to cite verses that would, out of context as you use them, support the absolutely heretical belief that anyone so faithfully saved by Jesus Christ could possibly walk away from that faith which did not originate with them, and which they cannot cling to through the "works" of faith. You choose to walk in fear -- at least you must, because if one can lose their salvation, you are just as liable to do so as any one of us. Yet I note with irony that none of you who claim salvation can be forfeited ever consider that you may have done so yourselves.

Well I guess you did not read all my posts, as I stated before how I was in the church when I was younger but then walked away when I was a teenager to do my own thing which put me in a lost non-salvation state. Just like the prodigal son who walked away, and was not saved at that point. He was not back in the saved state tell he came back to the Father, just like me when I finally came back in repentance at 28 years of age. Then and only then was I headed to eternal life again, and just like the bible says as long as you continue to walk properly in the Spirit will you have eternal life.
Anybody that tells you a believer can continue in a life of willful sins without repentance/confession and still be saved, or that one who falls away can never come back in repentance is teaching falsely on both accounts. Nowhere in the bible does it say either one, unless the person themselves refuse to do those things......

The Lord our God will never take the gift and place it to where you can not have it, but to accept it falls on you. If you refuse it, turn your back on it, and/or walk away from it. You will not receive that gift because of your disobedience and unbelief....

 

[Sirk]

Well I guess you did not read all my posts, as I stated before how I was in the church when I was younger but then walked away when I was a teenager to do my own thing which put me in a lost non-salvation state. Just like the prodigal son who walked away, and was not saved at that point. He was not back in the saved state tell he came back to the Father, just like me when I finally came back in repentance at 28 years of age. Then and only then was I headed to eternal life again, and just like the bible says as long as you continue to walk properly in the Spirit will you have eternal life.
Anybody that tells you a believer can continue in a life of willful sins without repentance/confession and still be saved, or that one who falls away can never come back in repentance is teaching falsely on both accounts. Nowhere in the bible does it say either one, unless the person themselves refuse to do those things......

The Lord our God will never take the gift and place it to where you can not have it, but to accept it falls on you. If you refuse it, turn your back on it, and/or walk away from it. You will not receive that gift because of your disobedience and unbelief....

So is a person who is addicted to nicotine willfully sinning and therefore....unsaved?

 

[kennethcadwell]

well it looks like you do not know context. or the proper use of words.

According to your interpretation, Timothy is not yet saved. Yet scripture teaches against this.

He can save his ministry and use that to help save others. But paul is not telling him if he did not, he would lose his salvation. that goes against scripture.

Well this leads back to the Greek meanings and context, which states a continuation of belief and to have in hand as a mental possession, not a physical possession yet.........

People want to constantly put salvation/eternal life as already theirs before they do anything, but that is not what the Lord says. For the Lord says you must endure to the end, and do the will of the Father in your life before you receive it;

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So is a person who is addicted to nicotine willfully sinning and therefore....unsaved?

Matthew 15:11

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.


Your words and actions toward others is what defiles you, not what you eat or intake into your body. It may not be proper to do as it leads to health issues, but that is not what qualifies as sin here......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well this leads back to the Greek meanings and context, which states a continuation of belief and to have in hand as a mental possession, not a physical possession yet.........

No, Greek says you have a physical possession (HAS ETERNAL LIFE) is what Jesus said in john 3: 16. one can not have it, if it is not in their possession.

people want to constantly put salvation/eternal life as already theirs before they do anything, but that is not what the Lord says. For the Lord says you must endure to the end, and do the will of the Father in your life before you receive it;

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

you keep bringing this up yet this is not speaking of eternal life but ohysical life, the end here is the end of the age. not the end of your life. talk about twisting.

As for those who do Gods will, no one can do gods will UNTIL THEY ARE SAVED, it is impossible, a natural man can not do the things of God, for he can not comprehend the things of God, everything he does will be of a carnal nature. because it is self motivated.

You slam people for saying they can be born again before they do anything, when scripture states you can do nothing but unrighteousness UNTIL you are born again.

 

[dcontroversal]

So I guess you and others who believe a person can not walk away from the faith, and loose their salvation have an issue with the truth the Holy Spirit speaks;

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Exactly where does it say in that verse that they loose salvation?

 

[dcontroversal]

Nice try, They are cast out because they blasphemed God.

John says in his epistle. a child of God can not sin, because the spirit of God is in him (so much for taking scripture as a whole to support your theory) If a child of God can not sin, they would never blaspheme God.

So let me guess, you are one of those who wish to excuse your sin, and say you do not do it knowingly? and because of that, your ok?

You can join your pharisee brothers and sisters, they thought the same thing.

They have no concept that it is the spirit that is born again, eternally saved, sealed and justified.....and that the body of flesh is condemned, dead and has to be made new at the resurrection........quite simple...men who believe you can loose salvation never had it to begin with and are blind to the truth as it takes being actually born again to understand the word.....

 

[Splagna]

the words never perish are in the aorist tense.

Correct

Jesus is saying, that whoever believes in him, will never die (the jist of the passage, and true meaning) and is currently possessing eternal life.

Wrong. Jesus is saying that whoever continues to trust Him will never enter death (the accurate meaning).

the problems with your view is two fold.

1. Never dieing is as you say, something which occurred in the past, with continuing results.

I was responding to dcontroversal's statement that the aorist is past with continuing results. Past action with continuing results better fits the perfect, but at times the aorist is perfect like. This is rare and I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

For the "never perish" the verb is an ingressive aorist. In this case the never perish the aorist points to entrance into death.

the meaning of the verse is simple.

I agree. Jesus is saying that the one who continues to trust in Him will not enter into death (or perish) but continue living eternally.