ETERNALLY SECURED IN HIM

[newbirth]

Tribesman is a noted Calvinist who does not recognize the salvation of anyone that does not agree with his Calvinistic views. It does not matter how you you answer his questions, there is no right answer because his mind has already been made up.

Not all but many Calvinists believe that if you oppose them, you are essentially a heretic and a spawn of the devil, predestined for hell rom the beginning of time. They are very stubborn & closed minded and will not accept anything outside of their very small theological box. This is the reason why John MacArthur bashes everyone that does not agree with him, condemning them all for hell yet he believes that those who agree with Calvinism could take the mark of the beast & still be saved. Basically, in their minds, they are untouchable and God would not mind if they had all of their opponents killed.

tribesman is also one who Jesus died for and our warfare is not with flesh and blood....it is the doctrine that poison the minds of men
2 Corinthians 10:4-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP](For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


Ephesians 6:11-13King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

[tribesman]

Christ does not only make a difference...he makes you different....if you have not been made into a new creature then you are the same old person taking a ride on Christ.....you think our rest in Christ is a holiday ....rest in Christ is to cease from your works for righteousness...not to cease from his works....we now have a new boss...we labour in his vineyard not laze around while he does the work....Hebrews 4:9-11King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11[/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

You don't get my points, and its quiet obvious why you don't get them yet because you are under a self-centered, work based program, where you want to "labour" hard in your own strength to hopefully get saved one day. You see, I do not boast anything in my personal experiences, in my obedience, in being a new creation that overcomes sins, in having a changed lifestyle, and in having experienced God's power and miracles too etc, etc. Although I could be like the enthusiasts and do just that, I have no interest in such self-centered and fleshly activities. If anything, such stuff would be immature and done by babes in Christ...at best. Usually the motive for such being self-centeredness. Actually, what follows as a fruit of regeneration is not the focus of the regenerate, the Savior is the focus. I don't put focus on "Oh, I have a changed life, I stop doing this and that sins, what a joy", my focus is the person and work of Christ. I have gone past all that looking into self and instead focusing on Christ alone, in whose salvation I rest already.

There is perhaps a "labour" in the sense of stop looking to law and to self, something you obviously are still in bondage to, being delivered from the strong delusion that your right standing before God is conditioned on how you perform at your very best. But this is the secret, to stop going about to establish one's own righteousness and instead submit to the righteousness of God, from which the fruit comes that, while at peace, walking in obedience, motivated by gratitude and joy for what God has accomplished in full for me, being accepted in the beloved, not motivated by fear of not measuring up to God's perfect standard but yet pressing on hard to hopefully be accepted. It's a huge difference what one's motivation is in one's desire to do righteousness, if it's a fruit of having experienced the grace of God, being justified before Him, or if it's a self-styled work program where one still "labour" only to establish one's own righteousness. Worlds apart difference.

that is faith without works....you have already gone astray and will not be corrected...your actions speak of a perpetual baby...always falling ...always needing correction...no maturity from the day you have been given divine knowledge about the righteousness of God...so you stumble around in the hope that God will pick you up if and whenever you fall...so what of the things that God instructed in 2 Peter 1..that if you do them you will never fall??
[SUP]

8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

It's fun how you go on with your subtle accusations. You do this because you do not know what the gospel is. I for one do not deny the importance of works of faith, I have never done this. Works of faith follows as a fruit of regeneration, and that is how they are to be understood. Needless to say faith and its works go hand in hand. They are light unto the world. But it's not as you think, a condition to prove to God that one is just. You did not read the word "if" in my text, meaning I may or I may not. I do not stumble around, I know exactly where the calling and election is to made sure. However, I do not believe in an absolute total literal sinless perfection. Maybe you do that. Maybe you are under the illusion that you can reach such state. You want to accuse me of various stuff, obviously. Point in case being that I give the trust to God to be the one to work in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. I also know who is my advocate with the Father.

 

[tribesman]

Tribesman is a noted Calvinist who does not recognize the salvation of anyone that does not agree with his Calvinistic views. It does not matter how you you answer his questions, there is no right answer because his mind has already been made up.

I have not said that. Here is why it's not easy to discuss with you, when you resort to assumptions leading to slander.

 

[newbirth]

You don't get my points, and its quiet obvious why you don't get them yet because you are under a self-centered, work based program, where you want to "labour" hard in your own strength to hopefully get saved one day. You see, I do not boast anything in my personal experiences, in my obedience, in being a new creation that overcomes sins, in having a changed lifestyle, and in having experienced God's power and miracles too etc, etc. Although I could be like the enthusiasts and do just that, I have no interest in such self-centered and fleshly activities. If anything, such stuff would be immature and done by babes in Christ...at best. Usually the motive for such being self-centeredness. Actually, what follows as a fruit of regeneration is not the focus of the regenerate, the Savior is the focus. I don't put focus on "Oh, I have a changed life, I stop doing this and that sins, what a joy", my focus is the person and work of Christ. I have gone past all that looking into self and instead focusing on Christ alone, in whose salvation I rest already.

what are your points???you cannot boast of obedience...because it requires doing...you cannot boast of being a new creation ...that involves doing God's desire as opposed to your own...you have no interest in those things because there is no new you..a new person cannot help but be those things...one does not put focus on a changed life...a changed life becomes your focus...by your own admission you are not focused on a life of Christ....so you say your focus is on Christ ....but not on being like Christ...

1 John 2:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



Romans 6:4

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

There is perhaps a "labour" in the sense of stop looking to law and to self, something you obviously are still in bondage to, being delivered from the strong delusion that your right standing before God is conditioned on how you perform at your very best. But this is the secret, to stop going about to establish one's own righteousness and instead submit to the righteousness of God, from which the fruit comes that, while at peace, walking in obedience, motivated by gratitude and joy for what God has accomplished in full for me, being accepted in the beloved, not motivated by fear of not measuring up to God's perfect standard but yet pressing on hard to hopefully be accepted. It's a huge difference what one's motivation is in one's desire to do righteousness, if it's a fruit of having experienced the grace of God, being justified before Him, or if it's a self-styled work program where one still "labour" only to establish one's own righteousness. Worlds apart difference.

your delusion is you believe anyone who do anything in Christ is looking to the law.....or self..so you do nothing but look...

It's fun how you go on with your subtle accusations. You do this because you do not know what the gospel is. I for one do not deny the importance of works of faith, I have never done this. Works of faith follows as a fruit of regeneration, and that is how they are to be understood. Needless to say faith and its works go hand in hand. They are light unto the world. But it's not as you think, a condition to prove to God that one is just. You did not read the word "if" in my text, meaning I may or I may not. I do not stumble around, I know exactly where the calling and election is to made sure. However, I do not believe in an absolute total literal sinless perfection. Maybe you do that. Maybe you are under the illusion that you can reach such state. You want to accuse me of various stuff, obviously. Point in case being that I give the trust to God to be the one to work in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. I also know who is my advocate with the Father.

God did not justify you so that you can live live as a spectator...He justified you so that you can live a just life as Christ did...unless you are saying the HS is not good enough to lead you into righteousness...
Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[tribesman]

what are your points???you cannot boast of obedience...because it requires doing...you cannot boast of being a new creation ...that involves doing God's desire as opposed to your own...you have no interest in those things because there is no new you..a new person cannot help but be those things...one does not put focus on a changed life...a changed life becomes your focus...by your own admission you are not focused on a life of Christ....so you say your focus is on Christ ....but not on being like Christ...

A believer can only boast (or rather glory-KJV-Gal.6:14) in one single thing and that is the cross of Christ. You obviously boast in your own efforts. You want to be a boaster? And you go on accusing, not understanding what is being said to you. I never said I have no interest in doing what is due as a believer, I said I am not interesting in any boasting in any of my efforts. My changed life is not what I put a focus on, it's not something I boast in, I put my focus on Christ, that's how I am motivated to follow Him. You want to be self-centered instead of Christ-centered? Self- and man-centeredness is a deadly poison, always leading souls the wrong way.

your delusion is you believe anyone who do anything in Christ is looking to the law.....or self..so you do nothing but look...

This is a false accusation again. I have never said what you are saying. Looking here means not being passive, it means where to put your focus as you walk (Heb.12:2). Works in and of themselves are not pleasing to God if they are not done in saving faith, in right motivation and with right motives. That's why it is also important to discern what one teaches and believes when they want to show forth their works.

God did not justify you so that you can live live as a spectator...He justified you so that you can live a just life as Christ did...unless you are saying the HS is not good enough to lead you into righteousness...

Nobody here has said we are to be spectators. Another false accusation? You obviously don't understand the biblical meaning of justification, that aside its true that the Holy Spirit does lead us into doing righteousness, this being done not to prove one's justified state before God, but as a gratitude, a thankfulness, for being taken up into God's fellowship. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom.3:24).

This is our basic point of difference, you believe that doing works of righteousness is something that is condition that you must fulfil in order to hopefully be taken up into God's fellowship, while I say with scripture that doing works of righteousness is something that is a fruit of having been justified freely by God by His grace. This difference is not small - its huge and worlds apart.

Now, can you tell us all if you are saved or not? Do you even believe that one can have assurance of salvation here on earth? Or are you working on it, to hopefully make it one day?

 

[newbirth]

A believer can only boast (or rather glory-KJV-Gal.6:14) in one single thing and that is the cross of Christ. You obviously boast in your own efforts. You want to be a boaster? And you go on accusing, not understanding what is being said to you. I never said I have no interest in doing what is due as a believer, I said I am not interesting in any boasting in any of my efforts. My changed life is not what I put a focus on, it's not something I boast in, I put my focus on Christ, that's how I am motivated to follow Him. You want to be self-centered instead of Christ-centered? Self- and man-centeredness is a deadly poison, always leading souls the wrong way.

(I put my focus on Christ, that's how I am motivated to follow Him.) these are your words...clearly showing your effort....and clearly a boast....

This is a false accusation again. I have never said what you are saying. Looking here means not being passive, it means where to put your focus as you walk (Heb.12:2). Works in and of themselves are not pleasing to God if they are not done in saving faith, in right motivation and with right motives. That's why it is also important to discern what one teaches and believes when they want to show forth their works.

how so?? I post scripture showing where we ought to live like Christ...but you keep babbling and not accepting scripture..

1 John 2:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Nobody here has said we are to be spectators. Another false accusation? You obviously don't understand the biblical meaning of justification, that aside its true that the Holy Spirit does lead us into doing righteousness, this being done not to prove one's justified state before God, but as a gratitude, a thankfulness, for being taken up into God's fellowship. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom.3:24).

hearers of the word and not doers of the word are spectators...freely justified does not mean if you sin you are still justified...

This is our basic point of difference, you believe that doing works of righteousness is something that is condition that you must fulfil in order to hopefully be taken up into God's fellowship, while I say with scripture that doing works of righteousness is something that is a fruit of having been justified freely by God by His grace. This difference is not small - its huge and worlds apart.

so what you are saying is that you don’t need to do good works....scripture says we are created unto good works...so if there is no need to do those good works then what are you created for???? you are of the view that you are eternally justified....if that is so then everything you do is right and your evil is become good...

Now, can you tell us all if you are saved or not? Do you even believe that one can have assurance of salvation here on earth? Or are you working on it, to hopefully make it one day?

your question gives the implication of OSAS...Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him...are you of the view that if one obeyed yesterday and disobeyed today....he is saved today based on his obedience of yesterday?
Christ gives the assurance of eternal life to them that obey and scripture is clear if you say you abide in him you ought to walk as he walked...so rethink your question and ask according to scripture....

have you given this comment any thought??/A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows that all of us are partly unbelievers. - John Calvin... are we partly saved?....it is either we believe or not....unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God...so do partly believers inherit a part of the kingdom...that is ungodly thinking....you have not thought it through but you follow blindly...what is even worst is that God gives faith .....and this man is accusing God of giving imperfect faith...and making us unbelievers...and men foolishly hold to his comments and call him wise...

 

[forsha]

There's another way to understand that statement that aligns more readily with Scripture. The Christian faith, the Gospel message, is the Faith of Jesus Christ. Since Paul's argument in Gal 2 is justification through faith vs. works of the Mosaic law and which one justifies, the context lends itself to the faith of Jesus Christ being the Gospel message, not Jesus having faith in something or someone for someone else.

The Christian's faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit and the Christian does not have that faith until he is already born of the Spirit, Gal 5.

 

[Butch5]

The Christian's faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit and the Christian does not have that faith until he is already born of the Spirit, Gal 5.

That's incorrect. One receives the Spirit at baptism, that makes it a little difficult.

 

[Butch5]

The life in this scripture is not referring to eternal life, but the life that God has made available that we can choose, by keeping his commandments here in this world. This life is used in many other scriptures. Believing is not the cause of our eternal life, it is the evidence that we already have eternal life. 1 Cor 2:14 says that the carnal man will not believe, and in fact can not believe.

Well, you just contradicted the apostle. He said, that believing we "Might" have life. Notice he said might not will. Just because one believes today doesn't guarantee that life.

Since you think this is some other life can you give some support from Scripture?

 

[forsha]

you are impossible....what other life did you come believing in Christ for???if not eternal life...the belief you had yesterday does not account for your eternal life today...you have to be believing today to have eternal life today...and that which you have today does not account for tomorrow ....you must be believing tomorrow....to have eternal life tomorrow...and you must endure to the end believing...

The carnal man does not come believing in Christ unless he has already been born of the Spirit and already has eternal life, 1 Cor 2:14. Again, believing does not cause you to have eternal life but is evidence that you have eternal life already.

 

[forsha]

That's incorrect. One receives the Spirit at baptism, that makes it a little difficult.

The scripture you are referring to is in Acts, and it does not say one receives the Spirit, it says they receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, which is discernment. 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Butch5]

The carnal man does not come believing in Christ unless he has already been born of the Spirit and already has eternal life, 1 Cor 2:14. Again, believing does not cause you to have eternal life but is evidence that you have eternal life already.

You've got the 1 Cor. 2 passage out of context. The passage says the natural man doesn't take the things of God because they are foolishness to him. The reason he can't understand them is because they are spiritually discerned. Obviously if the natural man doesn't have the spirit he can't understand them. However, Paul is talking about the deep things of God not hearing the Gospel. Your argument that the carnal mind cannot accept the Gospel doesn't work as Paul said that these very Corinthians were carnal.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? {divisions: or, factions} {as men: Gr. according to man?}
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
(1Co 3:2-4 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

The scripture you are referring to is in Acts, and it does not say one receives the Spirit, it says they receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, which is discernment. 1 Cor 2:14.

Actually, we see Jesus receiving the Spirit at His baptism. However, one doesn't receive the spirit while still in their sin. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, thus the Spirit is received after baptism, after sins are forgiven.

 

[forsha]

You've got the 1 Cor. 2 passage out of context. The passage says the natural man doesn't take the things of God because they are foolishness to him. The reason he can't understand them is because they are spiritually discerned. Obviously if the natural man doesn't have the spirit he can't understand them. However, Paul is talking about the deep things of God not hearing the Gospel. Your argument that the carnal mind cannot accept the Gospel doesn't work as Paul said that these very Corinthians were carnal.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? {divisions: or, factions} {as men: Gr. according to man?}
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
(1Co 3:2-4 KJV)

When God quickens the carnal man (Eph 2:1-5) He not only has the Spirit dwelling within him, but he is also still a carnal man along with being a spiritual man. Paul talks about this dual personality about the born again person has a warfare going on inside of them, the Spirit warring against the flesh (carnal man). In 1Cor 3: Paul is telling them about their struggle of this warfare. They are born again of the Spirit, because Paul calls them his brethren and refers to them as babes in Christ. In 1Cor 1:2 Paul is calling them the church of God at Corinth, sanctified, and called to be saints.

 

[newbirth]

When God quickens the carnal man (Eph 2:1-5) He not only has the Spirit dwelling within him, but he is also still a carnal man along with being a spiritual man. Paul talks about this dual personality about the born again person has a warfare going on inside of them, the Spirit warring against the flesh (carnal man). In 1Cor 3: Paul is telling them about their struggle of this warfare. They are born again of the Spirit, because Paul calls them his brethren and refers to them as babes in Christ. In 1Cor 1:2 Paul is calling them the church of God at Corinth, sanctified, and called to be saints.

that is why if you are led by the spirit you will not fulfil the lust of the flesh...you are to put to death the deeds of the flesh...you are called to follow the spirit...if you are not following the spirit then you are following the flesh...those who are in the flesh cannot please God...there is no middle ground...it is either you are following the carnal man or the spiritual man...cannot do both at the same time....

 

[newbirth]

The scripture you are referring to is in Acts, and it does not say one receives the Spirit, it says they receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, which is discernment. 1 Cor 2:14.

scripture does not say if you don't have discernment you are non if his... Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[psychomom]

hearers of the word and not doers of the word are spectators...freely justified does not mean if you sin you are still justified...

actually, that's precisely what it means.
and thank God for it!

your question gives the implication of OSAS...Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him...are you of the view that if one obeyed yesterday and disobeyed today....he is saved today based on his obedience of yesterday?
Christ gives the assurance of eternal life to them that obey and scripture is clear if you say you abide in him you ought to walk as he walked...so rethink your question and ask according to scripture....

have you given this comment any thought??/A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows that all of us are partly unbelievers. - John Calvin... are we partly saved?....it is either we believe or not....unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God...so do partly believers inherit a part of the kingdom...that is ungodly thinking....you have not thought it through but you follow blindly...what is even worst is that God gives faith .....and this man is accusing God of giving imperfect faith...and making us unbelievers...and men foolishly hold to his comments and call him wise...

have you ever doubted God? even for a moment? have you e-v-e-r questioned why? about anything?
that is what we call imperfect faith...it isn't that Christ didn't do everything required to save sinners to the uttermost. it's that we have this treasure in earthen vessels...a dual nature, part of which is the natural man.

you obviously understand our capacity to sin, but you don't understand how deep it goes.
i don't think you understand the demands of God's Law, either.
Jesus is the author (and finsher!) of eternal salvation to those who obey Him in this:
repent and believe the Gospel.

focus: (noun) the concentration of attention or energy on something
what Tribesman is telling you is the focus of the Christian faith is not the life of the Christian.
the focus is Christ. that's why he referenced Heb 12:2. when we focus on ourselves, we tend to become either despairing (I failed!) or self righteous (look at my progress).
no matter how we may progress, it will never be enough to warrant salvation.
because salvation is not predicated on our progress, but on Christ's Perfection for us.
on our best day, we are not saved based on our own obedience, because our own obedience to the Law has never been, is not, and in this life never will be perfect.
God justly demands perfection, not just in outward things, but perfection of the heart.
He cares about what motivates us. that's what Jesus is telling us in the Sermon on the Mount.

we are partly unbelievers, but thank God that isn't what saves us.
God gave us a perfect faith--the perfect faith of Jesus.
that's what imputed righteousness is all about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

actually, that's precisely what it means.
and thank God for it!




have you ever doubted God? even for a moment? have you e-v-e-r questioned why? about anything?
that is what we call imperfect faith...it isn't that Christ didn't do everything required to save sinners to the uttermost. it's that we have this treasure in earthen vessels...a dual nature, part of which is the natural man.

you obviously understand our capacity to sin, but you don't understand how deep it goes.
i don't think you understand the demands of God's Law, either.
Jesus is the author (and finsher!) of eternal salvation to those who obey Him in this:
repent and believe the Gospel.

focus: (noun) the concentration of attention or energy on something
what Tribesman is telling you is the focus of the Christian faith is not the life of the Christian.
the focus is Christ. that's why he referenced Heb 12:2. when we focus on ourselves, we tend to become either despairing (I failed!) or self righteous (look at my progress).
no matter how we may progress, it will never be enough to warrant salvation.
because salvation is not predicated on our progress, but on Christ's Perfection for us.
on our best day, we are not saved based on our own obedience, because our own obedience to the Law has never been, is not, and in this life never will be perfect.
God justly demands perfection, not just in outward things, but perfection of the heart.
He cares about what motivates us. that's what Jesus is telling us in the Sermon on the Mount.

we are partly unbelievers, but thank God that isn't what saves us.
God gave us a perfect faith--the perfect faith of Jesus.
that's what imputed righteousness is all about.

I think about what Jesus said, Faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. Thats a WHOLE lot of unbelief (questioning or doubt)

The man said I believe, help me in my unbelief (I have imperfect faith)

Paul said even when we are in inbelief (faithless) he is faithful, He can not deny himself (his promise)

 

[psychomom]

I think about what Jesus said, Faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. Thats a WHOLE lot of unbelief (questioning or doubt)

The man said I believe, help me in my unbelief (I have imperfect faith)

Paul said even when we are in inbelief (faithless) he is faithful, He can not deny himself (his promise)

all glory to the Most High God for the Person and Work of our loving Savior!

 

[BradC]

Those who believe that you have to continue to obey the truth in order to be truly saved, they become judges of the law instead of a doer. They get into this syndrome of judging their brother by saying you have not obeyed the truth here, here and here so you can't be saved. You have failed in this area of truth so salvation is no longer with you. You have not confessed your sin or repented because you failed again so you can't be saved. This is what the Bible says and you are not doing what it says so how can you be saved? If they do not say these things outwardly to their fallen brothers who do not obey the truth, they are certainly musing these things in their heart and sooner or later they will come out of that heart.

That is a dangerous place to be in your heart because they have no place in their heart for others to grow in grace and knowledge without losing their salvation over and over. If that is not a ministry of condemnation toward others then we have all been fooled. Do you think they could ever admit themselves as having not obeyed the truth and what they did to get their salvation back? How many times has that happened in their life, were's the score card and is God keeping track of all that mess? BTW - How do I know that they were sincere in their confession and repentance of sin just because they say they were? I don't know what they do behind closed doors and is that really any of my business? This is why their doctrine is so messed up and it is based on the same premise as those who lived under the old covenant in keeping the deeds of the law. Isn't it better to be under grace and be able to make mistakes, not be condemned, and learn to grow up in Christ? It is much better and that is why we are saved by grace, kept by the power of God through faith and have access to the throne of grace to help us obtain mercy for ourselves and others and find grace to help in the time of need.