Grace vs works!

[Jabberjaw]

A person does not obey God until God puts his Spirit within him at his regeneration ,(born again).

So anyone who "does not obey God" is of no fault of their own, it is Gods fault because God failed to put "his Spirit within him"?

Your theology is full of contradiction.

 

[posthuman]

So anyone who "does not obey God" is of no fault of their own, it is Gods fault because God failed to put "his Spirit within him"?

Your theology is full of contradiction.

Jeremiah's theology is full of contradiction too, in your opinion?

Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own;
it is not for them to direct their steps.
(Jeremiah 10:23)

and Solomon's?

In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.
(Proverbs 16:9)

and David's?

I say to the LORD, "You are my Lord; apart from you I have no good thing."
(Psalm 16:2)

and Paul's?

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
“Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Romans 9:18-20)

and Christ's?

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5)

 

[Jabberjaw]

Jeremiah's theology is full of contradiction too, in your opinion?

Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own;
it is not for them to direct their steps.
(Jeremiah 10:23)

and Solomon's?

In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.
(Proverbs 16:9)

and David's?

I say to the LORD, "You are my Lord; apart from you I have no good thing."
(Psalm 16:2)

and Paul's?

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
“Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Romans 9:18-20)

and Christ's?

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing.
(John 15:5)

The Lord drew the map, its up to you to follow it, it has always been that way, and it is still today.

 

[posthuman]

Show where in the bible God forgave anyone of a sin against God without some form of repentance, the forgiving was conditional upon a change, turning from rebelling to obeying... show where it was ever otherwise.

sure, right here:

One day Jesus was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there. They had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick. Some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”
(Luke 5:17-20)

where do we read of this paralyzed man repenting? obeying? changing? he didn't even bring himself to Christ - he was brought!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Confessing and forsaking sin (or evil) is not a work. Forgiving others is not a work. Denying Christ before men is not a work.

As for baptism: It does not save the soul. While it is spiritual, it is only a symbolic act, though.

As for helping the poor, etc.: This happens as a result of having been saved (or born again).

In other words, works do not save you. Only Jesus saves.

Granted, this does not give the believer a license to sin, though.

If baptism does not save then Peter lied twice in the bible, as he said in Acts 2:38 it is part that is needed to receive remission of sins from the Lord. And in 1 Peter 3:21 he says clearly it saves, because it is part of the process of a believer to receive salvation through the Lord.

 

[posthuman]

The Lord drew the map, its up to you to follow it, it has always been that way, and it is still today.

the Lord also created the eyes that see the map, the mind that comprehends it, the will that believes it, and the feet that are able to walk the path.

or did JabberJaw create himself?

it is certainly true that we should by all means obey the Lord.
but perhaps we ought to thank God for these things, instead of boast in them?

 

[tribesman]

If baptism does not save then Peter lied twice in the bible, as he said in Acts 2:38 it is part that is needed to receive remission of sins from the Lord. And in 1 Peter 3:21 he says clearly it saves, because it is part of the process of a believer to receive salvation through the Lord.

God works in baptism. It isn't as you and seabass have it, that baptism is our work, our "part" to fulfill. Nothing of importance you have got right so far.

 

[kennethcadwell]

OK! So I am asking you again, Kenneth, WHO are these imaginary people on Christian Chat that say we don't have to repent to be saved??

If you don't want to call them out in this thread, then PM me. Preferably with the quotes!

This straw man is really getting tiresome! You keep propping it up, over and over!!

NO ONE says that you don't need to repent! NO ONE! OK! I've read all these threads and the people who believe in eternal security are people who hunger and seek after God, and try to live their lives for him. Especially in this forum.

So don't be afraid to name names. I just don't believe you have any. And I will keep calling you out on this. Forever! I promise!

They are not imaginary people and I will not call people out in the open like that as that is not right.
I have been in debates many times with others saying those things, and the Tired of the Big lie thread is full of them. They even contradict themselves by saying they don't live in habitual sin, but then say they sin everyday. That is a contradiction. So yes I will p.m. you...

 

[kennethcadwell]

God works in baptism. It isn't as you and seabass have it, that baptism is our work, our "part" to fulfill. Nothing of importance you have got right so far.

Yes I know God works in baptism, but to say it is not part of the process that saves is not biblical;


Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


1 Peter 3:21
The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[posthuman]

If baptism does not save then Peter lied twice in the bible, as he said in Acts 2:38 it is part that is needed to receive remission of sins from the Lord. And in 1 Peter 3:21 he says clearly it saves, because it is part of the process of a believer to receive salvation through the Lord.

with all respect, i don't think you're understanding what Peter is saying. check Acts 10-11 with the understanding that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of salvation. it was given before any of those men touched H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, and it opened Simon Peter's eyes.

after all, if H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism "saves" -- what in the world do we need Christ for? just about every person in the history of the world has been immersed in water at some point. i know you agree in this that it's not just the bathing itself that 'saves' - so why keep talking as though it is?
Peter doesn't say "baptism saves" -- he says by this 'like figure' we are saved, by the resurrection of Christ - and immediately qualifies the statement saying that it's not the water that washes away dirt but the answer of an heart and conscience that believes and honors God.

Christ saves. nothing else can save.
our part is to believe this, and if we truly believe, we will certainly act on it.

 

[dcontroversal]

They are not imaginary people and I will not call people out in the open like that as that is not right.
I have been in debates many times with others saying those things, and the Tired of the Big lie thread is full of them. They even contradict themselves by saying they don't live in habitual sin, but then say they sin everyday. That is a contradiction. So yes I will p.m. you...

I suggest you take your own advice and if you are going to outright lie and accuse people you should have ALL of the facts...so just to show how much of a deceiver you are I will cut and post what I have said in open forum to your deceptive remarks found in this post.... to start with take your own advice.....

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

I am leaving this thread because it is full of those who hate, call names, and belittle fellow brothers in Christ for not seeing eye to eye with them. So keep this attitude toward others up, and James will answer you on how you are;


James 1:26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

 

[dcontroversal]

They are not imaginary people and I will not call people out in the open like that as that is not right.
I have been in debates many times with others saying those things, and the Tired of the Big lie thread is full of them. They even contradict themselves by saying they don't live in habitual sin, but then say they sin everyday. That is a contradiction. So yes I will p.m. you...

Here is exactly what was said in context...so like I said, if you are going to reference me I suggest you post what is said and quit being deceptive about what is actually said....so How does your deceptive misrepresentation of the truth prove your salvation? And exactly who is leading you to do these things? It is not the Spirit of God!

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

You said yesterday that you sin and we all sin everyday !!!
That would be living in habitual sin and not abstaining from it as the bible says a born again believer will do because of the Holy Spirit that is in them.

MY REPLY
This just proves you have no clue Kenneth...

sin is sin is sin.........

Are you seriously that blind to your own sin.......?

Habitual sin<-----get drunk every day, lie every day, steal every day, reject the word of God every day, lust after every woman every day

Sin in a believers life<----in some form or fashion every day...may be a thought, an action, get mad at the guy driving to slow in front of you etc......

WAKE UP DUDE......serious.....and while I am there......to say you don't sin or go weeks and months without sin is sin itself...you OPENLY ADMITTED that you (MESS UP) or have SINS OF OMISSION ...you have no clue between sins of the flesh that happen every day as opposed to habitual, willful sins.....serious!

 

[kennethcadwell]

I suggest you take your own advice and if you are going to outright lie and accuse people you should have ALL of the facts...so just to show how much of a deceiver you are I will cut and post what I have said in open forum to your deceptive remarks found in this post.... to start with take your own advice.....

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

I am leaving this thread because it is full of those who hate, call names, and belittle fellow brothers in Christ for not seeing eye to eye with them. So keep this attitude toward others up, and James will answer you on how you are;


James 1:26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

See what I say as they can not bridle themselves and chase others into other threads to keep their hater doctrine going.
I left your thread Dconn because of your self righteous attitude of thinking you are better then others and are never wrong.

You are showing the fruits of your faith, hate doctrine is not of Christ.......So keep your negativity toward others up, as the Lord will bring your ways of darkness into the light.........

 

[dcontroversal]

See what I say as they can not bridle themselves and chase others into other threads to keep their hater doctrine going.
I left your thread Dconn because of your self righteous attitude of thinking you are better then others and are never wrong.

You are showing the fruits of your faith, hate doctrine is not of Christ.......So keep your negativity toward others up, as the Lord will bring your ways of darkness into the light.........

First of all we were debating and I hate no one.....here is what YOU POSTED WHEN YOU CAME into this thread...are you seriously that blind???? SO.....our double minded ways are clear for ALL to see.....

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

They are not imaginary people and I will not call people out in the open like that as that is not right.
I have been in debates many times with others saying those things, and the Tired of the Big lie thread is full of them. They even contradict themselves by saying they don't live in habitual sin, but then say they sin everyday. That is a contradiction. So yes I will p.m. you...

 

[Jabberjaw]

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”
(Luke 5:17-20)

where do we read of this paralyzed man repenting? obeying? changing? he didn't even bring himself to Christ - he was brought!

Of course he was brought, he was paralyzed, where does it say he did not repent, if he had unrepentant sin, and the Lord forgave him anyway, then we all can through away our bibles, no need to stop sinning (repent), just believe that He is and we are in...

Your theology is so immature

 

[Jabberjaw]

with all respect, i don't think you're understanding what Peter is saying. check Acts 10-11 with the understanding that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of salvation. it was given before any of those men touched H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, and it opened Simon Peter's eyes.

after all, if H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism "saves" -- what in the world do we need Christ for? just about every person in the history of the world has been immersed in water at some point. i know you agree in this that it's not just the bathing itself that 'saves' - so why keep talking as though it is?
Peter doesn't say "baptism saves" -- he says by this 'like figure' we are saved, by the resurrection of Christ - and immediately qualifies the statement saying that it's not the water that washes away dirt but the answer of an heart and conscience that believes and honors God.

Christ saves. nothing else can save.
our part is to believe this, and if we truly believe, we will certainly act on it.

with all due respect, your twisting the scripture again, rather than see the truth of Acts 10 that Cornelius was NOT saved by HS baptism but the water baptism in Acts 10:47-48 (which is in complete agreement with Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21 and Eph 4:5), you have to come up with a convoluted conclusion that you are the only one that understands Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21...

 

[posthuman]

Of course he was brought, he was paralyzed, where does it say he did not repent, if he had unrepentant sin, and the Lord forgave him anyway, then we all can through away our bibles, no need to stop sinning (repent), just believe that He is and we are in...

Your theology is so immature

immature because i put my trust in the Lord and not in men, not even my own self?
thank you so much! you mean to curse me, but instead you honor me much more than i deserve.

do you need another example?

Jesus said,
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
(Luke 23:24)

what do you think mr. Jabber?

did the Father hear the prayer of the Son?
yes/no ?

 

[BradC]

Unbelievable, you have used 493 words in your post, and still have not answered the simple 10 word question "Do they serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?"

Can you not answer the question? it has two answers "they serve sin unto death" <--- 5 words, or "they serve obedience unto righteousness" <--- 5 words...

The answer need not be longer than 5 words?

Maybe you should soberly consider the hundreds of posts, just on this site alone, that have been made because professing believers do not trust what (John 3:16) says in simplicity. For them it is never enough to believe upon the Lord to have everlasting life. They have to add some form of repentance, or confession of sin, the need for water baptism or baptismal regeneration, or some proposed difference between eternal salvation and eternal life and all these kinds of things just because they can't believe unto righteousness in their heart. Simple faith in the cross of Christ just is not enough to save the lost sinner. For them there must be something else so they have to strive to find that out and make that happen and come up with strange doctrine and a stranger belief system that involves some kind of activity other then faith. That's what they do and they want to be heard on the matter and they reject grace and truth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

with all respect, i don't think you're understanding what Peter is saying. check Acts 10-11 with the understanding that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of salvation. it was given before any of those men touched H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, and it opened Simon Peter's eyes.

after all, if H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism "saves" -- what in the world do we need Christ for? just about every person in the history of the world has been immersed in water at some point. i know you agree in this that it's not just the bathing itself that 'saves' - so why keep talking as though it is?
Peter doesn't say "baptism saves" -- he says by this 'like figure' we are saved, by the resurrection of Christ - and immediately qualifies the statement saying that it's not the water that washes away dirt but the answer of an heart and conscience that believes and honors God.

Christ saves. nothing else can save.
our part is to believe this, and if we truly believe, we will certainly act on it.

Christ does save, which is why we are told to obey what He said to receive that remission of sins from Him and get salvation.

If one tries to say they have faith, but denies and does not do what He said they do not have Him nor do they have salvation. The bible makes that very clear, and 1 John 2-4 shows clearly what I have been saying. As John breaks it down to if you do not do this, this, or that, you do not have Him.
You can not separate the two as a true faith is an active faith, a false faith is a non-active or disobedient faith.
It is amazing that people debate with me and call me false for standing up for the doing part of faith, when it is all over the bible in the NT. Nowhere in the bible does it say you get salvation without an active faith......

 

[kennethcadwell]

Baptizo

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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 907[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from a derivative of (911)[/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Baptizo[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1:529,92[/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]bap-tid'-zo [/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

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2. to overwhelm

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