Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[fordman]

So great a price paid by Christ and you would add your works to it? That is an affront to grace.You will not enter and you will not let those who are entering to go in. Matthew 23:13

You should read vs.23-36 to get the full jest. This series of seven “woes,” directed against the scribes and Pharisees and addressed to them, is the heart of the speech. The phrase woe to occurs often in the prophetic and apocalyptic literature, expressing horror of a sin and punishment for those who commit it.(see Mtt.6:2). The hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees consists in the difference between their speech and action Mtt.23:3 and in demonstrations of piety that have no other purpose than to enhance their reputation as religious persons (Mtt.23:5).

Now if you want to cherry pick Scripture, in this case Mtt. 23:13, your personal interpretation of this passage is distorted. Where it reads, "You lock the kingdom of heaven" (see Mt.16:19) where Jesus tells Peter that he will give him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The purpose of the authority expressed by that metaphor is to give entrance into the kingdom (the kingdom is closed only to those who reject the authority); here the charge is made that the authority of the scribes and Pharisees is exercised in such a way as to be an obstacle to entrance. See Lk.11:52 where the accusation against the “scholars of the law” (Matthew’s scribes) is that they “have taken away the key of knowledge.”


Pax Christi


"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

 

[notuptome]

You should read vs.23-36 to get the full jest. This series of seven “woes,” directed against the scribes and Pharisees and addressed to them, is the heart of the speech. The phrase woe to occurs often in the prophetic and apocalyptic literature, expressing horror of a sin and punishment for those who commit it.(see Mtt.6:2). The hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees consists in the difference between their speech and action Mtt.23:3 and in demonstrations of piety that have no other purpose than to enhance their reputation as religious persons (Mtt.23:5).

Now if you want to cherry pick Scripture, in this case Mtt. 23:13, your personal interpretation of this passage is distorted. Where it reads, "You lock the kingdom of heaven" (see Mt.16:19) where Jesus tells Peter that he will give him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The purpose of the authority expressed by that metaphor is to give entrance into the kingdom (the kingdom is closed only to those who reject the authority); here the charge is made that the authority of the scribes and Pharisees is exercised in such a way as to be an obstacle to entrance. See Lk.11:52 where the accusation against the “scholars of the law” (Matthew’s scribes) is that they “have taken away the key of knowledge.”


Pax Christi


"For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ---Lk.1:48

You are ascribing to man authority reserved for God. Gods authority is expressed in His word the bible. It is confirmed in Gods Holy Spirit abiding in those who have trusted Christ to save them.

The scribes and Pharisees operated with the same error that afflicts Rome. They think they are in charge when they are not. Jesus said unto them you think that having the scriptures is enough but it is the scriptures that testify of Me. John 5:39 Rome in her arrogance denies the very Lord Who died to save them.

Do works follow salvation? Yes as Ephesians 2:10 clearly demonstrates. You err when you make salvation follow works. Grace is the sole means of salvation. Salvation produces works but works do not produce salvation.

As long as you cleave to your evil works you will remain blind to Gods truth and His grace. All works apart from Gods grace are evil works because they are done by hearts that are evil. Evil in that they are not regenerated by Gods Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KenAllan]

2 Peter 3:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Its interesting that even Peter is pointing out that the "untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Acts 17:1-2
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures


Paul used only the Scriptures to reason with people about God.

The Disciples and Jesus Christ always used only the Scriptures to debate and teach from. They never used the "Traditions" of men to teach from. Jesus Christ ALWAYS quoted from the Bible, He never quoted from what men said.

Sola Scriptura is in the Bible and it is the only way we are to use to find the Truth. Even Peter pointed out that Paul was greater than him and had more Wisdom then him. Therefore Paul should have been the First Pope. Since Paul was not the first Pope proves that the Catholic Church is not the True Church.

The True Church today is Jesus Christ, not the corrupted Catholic Church with all its false man made doctrines that oppose the Truth from the Holy Spirit that is in the Bible.

Its a shame on the Catholics that they put their Church above God. Do you Catholics realize that you are not doing the Will of the Father by teaching man made doctrines as Truths from God? Do you realize that only those who do the Will of the Father will enter into Heaven?

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Catholics, toss aside your Pride of being a Catholic and return to Jesus Christ before its too late. Return back to the Truth in the Bible from God so you too can spend Eternity in Heaven with us True Christians! Otherwise if keep on the road you are on, you will never be allowed to enter into Heaven.

 

[GuitarPraise]

Hey Robo can I suggest you delete all the posts in this thread and close it to replies, the subject does not warrant any discussion. Any Catholics that think they are Christian should sit down and read the bible, you would find that Catholicism is explicitly anti-christ and goes against all of the gospel. It is in plain English and black and white, if you disagree then you are on the wrong site. You might as well go on some Muslim site and say Allah is a lie, it's absolutely pointless to argue this here. If you want the truth you only have to go as far as reading the gospels rather than relying on what other people tell you is true.

 

[GuitarPraise]

I know there are some Catholics that are upset about this but look at it this way. What if I went around saying I was Catholic but that you don't have to confess to a priest, you can't pray people out of hell, and communion is not transformed into the physical blood and flesh of Jesus once inside you. You would also say I am NOT a Catholic!

 

[ThomistColin]

I know there are some Catholics that are upset about this but look at it this way. What if I went around saying I was Catholic but that you don't have to confess to a priest, you can't pray people out of hell, and communion is not transformed into the physical blood and flesh of Jesus once inside you. You would also say I am NOT a Catholic!

Ah...so then who would be allowed on this site then? What denominations? And you better be specific...or else you begin to let the "undesirables" in.

 

[Jeff_56]

jesus associates with the undesirables, and instructs his ekklesia to.

the anti-christs, the heretics, the catholics who won't repent after being warned twice ,

jesus says not to even greet you, nor to have a meal with you - you shouldn't be here(on a christian site).

you are declared and defined and recognized as heretics if you believe the pope.

we christians , the true ekklesia, cannot help you - because you trust in man instead of in God.

if you place your trust in God, then you might be helped. then the ekklesia everywhere can welcome you

instead of being required to follow Jesus order to shun you as unrepentant sinners.

other denominations are not defined, declared, nor recognized as heretics. other denominations may

place their trust in God if they chose, without being excommunicated by their denomination.

- in the roman heresy, the rcc=the mother of harlots as defined and described in scripture, if you place

your trust in God instead of in the pope, with the pope first, well- that is not allowed in catholicism; but in

other denominations it is. that is the difference. when God is first you may be accepted.
when the anti-christ system is first, you may not be accepted.

 

[mikeuk]

Hey Robo can I suggest you delete all the posts in this thread and close it to replies, the subject does not warrant any discussion. Any Catholics that think they are Christian should sit down and read the bible, you would find that Catholicism is explicitly anti-christ and goes against all of the gospel. It is in plain English and black and white, if you disagree then you are on the wrong site. You might as well go on some Muslim site and say Allah is a lie, it's absolutely pointless to argue this here. If you want the truth you only have to go as far as reading the gospels rather than relying on what other people tell you is true.

And there of course is the problem - those who refuse to find out what catholicism is before attack it. And so we go in the endless cycle.


We clearly ARE hristian, read the nicene creed! The basis of good portion of the catechism and developed at the same time as your new testament, by the same and similar people. Unless you accept they were inspired then goodbye your new testament too.

All those who wish to attack catholicism should read the catechism first, rather than the myths they invent about it, so please find out what it is first!


Don't worry , you are not alone. As a protestant / evangelical I was force fed similar bunk about catholicism, it was only when I grew up a little and decided to make up my own mind that I discovered that much of what was said about it was myth, the rest jusifiable, the objections were synthetic, shallow and false.

It certainly is justifiable in scripture, and moreover study of the history of the canon, and early church fathers give no choice but to accept RCC or reject the new testament completely!


GuitarPraise should also consider that you are not united on this forum in any way at all. So the "them RCC" and "us protestants" is a false dichotomy.

Just study this forum and you will see several different theologies of justification, many different theologies of the eucharist, several of baptism, etc etc etc and a verbal punchup on every issue. So by definition at least 99% of you are preaching false teaching, since hundreds of you all disagree! A clear lack of authority the problem.

Look at the "Opinions" on such as Matthew 16:18, matthew 18 etc and the only thing uniting protestants is the lengths to which they go twisting the scripture to avoid accepting the obvious , that peter is the rock upon which christ built his church. Some protestant interpretations of that are laughable. They are so far removed from the words spoken, they make no sense at all, but for the most part having decided "peter" is wrong, protestants fail to give a viable alternative for many of the scriptures that define catholicism. They are united only on a negative. "we dont know what it means, but we do not want it to be the catholic version". I know. Iasked, got no sensible responses at all.


Indeed far from finding a few dissenters it is hard to find any of you united, except in criticism of RCC, since every Tom Dick and Harry is allowed to make up their own version, it is not surprising that there are now tens of thousands of denominations, since everyone can make their own private interpretaion of scripture conform to them, not the other way round. Endless fractures and schisms the result, because of lack of authority.


And I bring you back to the obvious issue. Scripture says "the pillar and foundation of truth" is the church. NOt scripture, but the church! The hallmark of the true church is constancy of doctrine over millenia. Only one candidate for that. The one supported by early church fathers, who describe a sacramental, liturgical church with appointed clergy and that believed in the real presence and so on. It was only in the post reformation when everyone want their own version, that naming became important. In the early church there was only one of significant size. The one that gave you the new testament.
The one that became RCC


If you look back on this thread, you will find answers to all of the standard objections to catholicism. I do not see why we should keep repeating them, for the next person who fails to study before criticise. There are many books on the subject.


The problem of course is many myths -

The sad thing even in RoboOps post - his mother in law is said to have believed that "mary saves" Whether or not that was a misunderstanding is irrelevant, RCC does not even believe that, so why criticise it for something it does not believe? So please read the catechism first.


He also criticises RCC for saying the honorary title "mother of god" when elizabeth honoured her much the same as "mother of lord"! so clearly scriptural!


Perhaps the worst are people Like KenAllan who now criticise RCC who was at one time part of it, clearly never studied it, was easy prey for the latest evangelical group and now trotts out myths against it So read the catechism and discover that:


WE ARE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS, before every Tom Dick and Harry invented their own version of it!

 

[Jeff_56]

you (all who trust the roman abomination, the rcc) are still heretics according to all the ekklesia on earth and in heaven and in union with yahshua and likewise according to this site and its owner and all the admins.

you are still in a heretic system if you are roman catholic. by definition. by revelation. by God's Word.

by the rules in Scripture, and on this site, you are in a system opposed to Christ Jesus and the Gospel.

the roman catholic abomination is totally dark and sinful, not at all good.

it doesn't matter if you still don't know or don't want to know the history of your abomination

that you in vain put your trust in - the pope cannot help anyone, nor can his heresy.

as long as you put your trust in the heresy, in the antichrist system,

you are by God's own word cursed and without hope unless and until He grants you mercy to repent.

 

[mikeuk]

Paul used only the Scriptures to reason with people about God.

Completely Wrong!
Much New testament scripture was not even written till decades later! He asks people to remain true to what they were taught by word of mouth and "scripture" which for him was old testament scripture because that is all that existed then , probably the septuagint. (which by the way seems to contain maccabees) Most evangeliscal groups think the bible dropped out of the sky in the year 1600 - they cannot hold the views they do, if they look at the history of it. You have bought into a myth Ken.

Sola Scriptura is in the Bible

Completely wrong, and an unsupportable logical falasy, if it were true it would have to say so and it does not, so if the greatest truth is "all truth is contained in scripture", it could only be true if it were contained, there and it is not!.
That assertion also ignores the history of the early church The bible expressly denies it anyway, says not enough books can contain Christs works and teachings. Last verse of John, I think. Scripture says all scripture is valuable, and that is the highest claim it makes for it. It goes on to say the "Pillar and foundation of truth" is the church, not scripture.


The problem is Ken if you cut yourself off from history and tradition, it is not surprising you make errors in interpretation of such as Matthew 16:18 The conversation took place in aramaic! So petra and petros were one and the same. Peter the rock on which the church was built (as steward, not king, as per all davidic kingdoms) Even Luther believed Peter was special! And if you knew the exact location at which that conversation actually took place - bible students, that is interesting, go research it!, it clearly is making a distinction to the setting of that rock over there, to this rock here,...ie peter.


It seems that evangelical sect have brainwashed you Ken. Sad.

Yes you should read the catechism, to understand what you rejected, and also before you misrepresent RCC again.

Don't waste your effort in replying to me, I will no longer respond to you. I am only willing to make the same points a few times, before it becomes obvious, you are not interested even in basic truth like "where in the bible does it say it has to be in the bible to be true". It does not, and nothing you say can change that!

And after several times contesting it, you clearly do not care about truth, only RCC bashing.

 

[Jeff_56]

Jesus spoke well of the woman who put in her life savings trusting Yahweh for all of her sustenance.

The widow did not necessarily preach or teach or try to convert the Jewish religious leaders to believe in

Yahshua --- her faith remained in Yahweh ; the Jewish religious leaders sought to crucify Yahweh's Son the
Messiah the Scriptures told them to wait for.

the point ? you who are still in a roman catholic assembly somewhere on earth might be trusting Yahweh

(God) by faith in Yahshua(Yahweh's Salvation)(Jesus) and that is the only hope for salvation.

but if you trust the roman catholic authorities,
you are trusting those who re-crucify Christ Jesus daily, those who murder His followers as often as they can.

i.e. if you allow Yahweh to rule your life, instead of the abomination pope,

you might yet live.

like the widow, who placed her trust in Yahweh.

but also like the others who placed their trust in the Jewish leaders and would not follow Yahshua,

if you placed your trust in the papal system, you are misguided.

 

[Jeff_56]

GOOD FOR YOU KEN --- we in YAHSHUA are to DESTROY THE WORKS OF HASATAN!!! (rcc bashing others call it)

 

[mikeuk]

those who murder His (Jesus Christ) followers as often as they can.

Mods..

I know Jeff is a sausage short of a hot dog, as his ranting proves, but are you really happy about the repeaated accusations against others of felony mass murder, likening the objects of his hatreda to gestapo, calling them baby killers and so on? Not least because RCC is so demonstrably opposed to abortion, so hardly baby killers!

It adds nothing to the conversation and makes it unpleasant reading even for protestants I suspect. Like any trolling it destroys the flow of what is supposed to be a discussion after all. What do others think?

.

 

[Jeff_56]

the op states it clearly:

We try to welcome everyone to our site including people who grow up with Catholic tradition because of course we want to lead people to the truth.
......
So for the record, Catholicism is heresy. That's what the admins of this site believe.
.....
This is preaching to the choir for most people here. But it regularly happens that we start to accumulate Catholics here who really promote and argue their Catholicism, along with all the heresy.

So for the record, if anyone wants or needs to hear it, we don't agree with Catholic heresy. And yes it is heresy to exalt any other human being as sinless to the same level as Jesus (as the Catholics do with Mary -- they actually teach that Mary was sinless like Jesus!!!), and put equal focus on a person other than Jesus.

At the same time, we understand that no one is born a Christian. That's why Jesus said you must be born again. So we welcome all who are seeking -- Catholics, Muslims, homosexuals, and even protestants who are "Christian" only by tradition -- to experience our fellowship here on this site and learn the truth that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life and no one can come to the father except through Him. And there is only one God, and one mediator between God, the man Christ Jesus. Because he was both 100% man and 100% God, that makes him the perfect mediator between man and God. That's why the scripture also tells us to go straight to Jesus -- go to the throne of grace with confidence, knowing that he can understand our weaknesses and everything, since he lived as a man like us (and even experienced all temptation). Hence we don't need Mary to go to or go through -- that defeats the purpose of Jesus.
.....
You see how deceived they all are. It is sad. You see how the devil uses that poison to add something to Jesus.

So I hope it's clear what we believe and we hope that we can promote the truth here in love.

 

[didymos]

...We clearly ARE hristian, read the nicene creed! The basis of good portion of the catechism and developed at the same time as your new testament, by the same and similar people. Unless you accept they were inspired then goodbye your new testament too...

If it's so apparent that you're 'hristian,' what do I need to read Symbolum Nicaenum for?

The NT was written way before the creed btw...

 

[keeth]

Mods..

I know Jeff is a sausage short of a hot dog, as his ranting proves, but are you really happy about the repeaated accusations against others of felony mass murder, likening the objects of his hatreda to gestapo, calling them baby killers and so on? Not least because RCC is so demonstrably opposed to abortion, so hardly baby killers!

It adds nothing to the conversation and makes it unpleasant reading even for protestants I suspect. Like any trolling it destroys the flow of what is supposed to be a discussion after all. What do others think?

.

It would probably help if you just confessed that all such actions committed by Catholics or anyone else throughout history were wrong and had nothing to do with the true church of Jesus Christ. Denying these things ever happened while there is so very much historical testimony to the contrary, is not conducive to healthy discussion either. Then perhaps we could move on to the present, and a discussion of the errors and principles which lead to the above mentioned histories, that they might be addressed and prevented from occurring again.

 

[Jeff_56]

realize, keeth, that the death-dealing of the anti-christ does not end until yahshua returns.

except, of course, the ekklesia before then are set free from sin and the power of hasatan;

yet the ekklesia are permitted to be martyred according to Revelation and more of Scripture.

i.e. there's nothing anyone can do, believer or unbeliever, in truth or heretic, to prevent the killing from

occurring this year even more than any year ever in the past.

the hopeful, prayerful benefit is life for those who turn to Jesus away from sin.

regardless of their religion's

history and even though it be black as charcoal, they themselves may be made white as snow, God Willing.

i.e. the truth may set anyone free, if God Permits. that is our prayer for everyone, from every country.

 

[keeth]

realize, keeth, that the death-dealing of the anti-christ does not end until yahshua returns.

except, of course, the ekklesia before then are set free from sin and the power of hasatan;

yet the ekklesia are permitted to be martyred according to Revelation and more of Scripture.

i.e. there's nothing anyone can do, believer or unbeliever, in truth or heretic, to prevent the killing from

occurring this year even more than any year ever in the past.

the hopeful, prayerful benefit is life for those who turn to Jesus away from sin.

regardless of their religion's

history and even though it be black as charcoal, they themselves may be made white as snow, God Willing.

i.e. the truth may set anyone free, if God Permits. that is our prayer for everyone, from every country.

Yes, but we still have a testimony to give, which testimony will bear fruit even among those of Babylon itself. Calling those within her ranks out, requires that the truth be presented and defended to this end.

Rev 18:1 ¶ And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

And there of course is the problem - those who refuse to find out what catholicism is before attack it. And so we go in the endless cycle........


WE ARE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS, before every Tom Dick and Harry invented their own version of it!

William Tyndale wrote the English translation of the exclusively Latin Bible, was defrocked, turned over to civil authorities, strangled and burned at the stake for his crime of doing that. Myth? His crime was being a threat to the power the RCC clergy had over people.

I often check the Catholic Encyclopedia online. Would you say it is contaminated with myths, untruths about Catholicism?
If not, then I'll bring up some points you apparently say are myths that are plainly described as approved doctrine.

An interesting one to consider is "The doctrine of Mary's spiritual motherhood of men is contained in the fact that she is the antitype of Eve: Eve is our natural mother because she is the origin of our natural life; so Mary is our spiritual mother because she is the origin of our spiritual life. Again, Mary's spiritual motherhood rests on the fact that Christ is our brother, being "the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). She became our mother at the moment she consented to the Incarnation of the Word, the Head of the mystical body whose members we are; and she sealed her motherhood by consenting to the bloody sacrifice on the cross which is the source of our supernatural life. Mary and the holy women (Matthew 17:56; Mark 15:40; Luke 23:49; John 19:25) assisted at the death of Jesus on the cross; she probably remained during the taking down of His sacred body and during His funeral." from CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary

No wonder they accept evolution of man from lower lifeforms!

I found a lot of stuff Catholics believe about Mary that are mostly not supported by scriptures without mixing and matching verses like working a crossword puzzle. In fact, much of it contradicts scripture when scriptures are taken in context.

 

[mikeuk]

Yes, but we still have a testimony to give, which testimony will bear fruit even among those of Babylon itself. Calling those within her ranks out, requires that the truth be presented and defended to this end.

What truth?

Which of the thousands of varieties of so called "truth" aired on these forums. Protestants daily punching each others lights out, over every conceivable issue. From justification to baptism, real presence to liturgy or none, clergy or none or women or homosexual women which? From prochoice to prolife, contracteption or none.

As I said - the only thing there seems to be consensus on is anti RCC - and I suspect the reason RCC attracts these threads is because there is so little else any of you agree on, except the level of non christian rudeness in some of the threads.

They point heresy fingers at RCC, not realising that because they all disagree with each other, using their own words, all of them must be heretics too, the only question is which are the few if any that are not! There is only one "truth" out of the tens of thousands of permutations of belief expressed here, so most are false teachers, they logically have to be!

A house divided cannot stand, and if protestantism has proven anything, it has proven after 10000 schisms the house cannot stand!

Anyone coming to these forums asking the question "what is the truth" would end up a raving schizophrenic if they believed even a small part of what is written on the bible discussion threads.

So my statement to protestants generally is get your house in order. Decide what it stands for and promote it.
That is part of why I left such congregations. All the bickering. Nobody knew what the "truth" was, they said RCC did not have it, but they did not replace it with any consistent belief set of their own.

Which is why I come back to the nicene creed. It is part of our catechism, and hopefully something we can all unite around.

I came here to find out what others thought, I leave none the wiser, just knowing that there are no consistent answers. Not surprising - there is no authority. The "pillar and foundation of truth" is certainly not on this forum!

It would probably help if you just confessed that all such actions committed by Catholics or anyone else throughout history were wrong and had nothing to do with the true church of Jesus Christ

If you read this thread, you would see, all of us have said so: bad people do bad things, just as they do in the protestant world. RCC is so big , there are certainly a lot of them. The man who "kills a baby" is certainly not acting out the catechism, so not acting as a catholic, any more than the protestant minister who killed a pair of wives. What of it? Popes are sinners too and admit it. So was St Paul.