The forgotten teachings of Christ

[Delivery]

No, you did not answer my question about why Jesus said that we ought to cut off our hands or pluck out our eyes in the worst case scenario as opposed to having our whole bodies thrown into hell and I never expected one such as you to answer such a question in that you regularly ignore the teachings of Jesus as if they're just some sort of "filler" in our Bibles.

As far as your other comments are concerned, I'm actually glad that you're so opposed to me in that it's beyond evident to me that you don't even know Christ and are but one of several here who have embraced "another Jesus".

Anyhow, your antinomian friend "liked" your comments as if I'm surprised by the same.

Maybe you should be the one to answer this question. The "earn Salvation by works" crowd always like to bring up verses like this, then ask somebody to explain why Jesus said it, but i haven't heard any one of them explain what Jesus actually meant. So, JesusistheChrist, can you please be the one to explain it to us? You can start by explaining what it means to say, if your right hand or eye offend you pluck them out or cut them off. How would your eye offend you to such a degree that you're supposed to pluck it out? Also can you explain to us if you believe that when we do cut off a limb or pluck out an eye when they offend us that we will therefore be without that limb or eye when we get to heaven? After all, if we were to take it literally, that's what Jesus said. Or could it be that Jesus was speaking symbolically? You tell us. Be sure and give us living examples in the bible where the disciples cut each others limbs off and plucked each others eyes out every time they made a mistake or were disobedient to some rule.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Those where legalist he doubted...

Ga 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

In some cases, yes, but not in all cases.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Maybe you should be the one to answer this question. The "earn Salvation by works" crowd always like to bring up verses like this, then ask somebody to explain why Jesus said it, but i haven't heard any one of them explain what Jesus actually meant. So, JesusistheChrist, can you please be the one to explain it to us? You can start by explaining what it means to say, if your right hand or eye offend you pluck them out or cut them off. How would your eye offend you to such a degree that you're supposed to pluck it out? Also can you explain to us if you believe that when we do cut off a limb or pluck out an eye when they offend us that we will therefore be without that limb or eye when we get to heaven? After all, if we were to take it literally, that's what Jesus said. Or could it be that Jesus was speaking symbolically? You tell us. Be sure and give us living examples in the bible where the disciples cut each others limbs off and plucked each others eyes out every time they made a mistake or were disobedient to some rule.

Those of us who have truly been born again of the Holy Spirit and who have truly availed ourselves of the grace of God which delivers us FROM sin need not cut off any limbs nor pluck out our eyes. At the same time, however, Jesus was and still is notifying His hearers of the severity of sin and its punishment and He said that in the worst case scenario that we should lose a limb or an eye as opposed to continuing in sin and reaping its eternal consequences.

As far as any labels are concerned which you would like to attach to me, go right ahead. From the little that I've read of your posts, it's rather obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Delivery]

so, mitzy is not under the law, but keeps sinning anyway, every day apparently , all the time in many of his posts at least.

so, since he/she/it is not under the law, is he/ whatever/ saved or not saved ?

i.e. is it okay or possible to just keep sinning because of not being under the law ?

doesn't First John and First Peter address this? (and points out the contradiction of claiming to be saved,

while still willfully or unwillingly sinning.)

First John says: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It's not a case of willfully or unwillingly sinning. It's a case of having all your sins forgiven by believing in Jesus. The only way to willfully sin is to reject Jesus. To hear the Gospel of Salvation and forgiveness for your sins and then reject it because you love darkness rather than light, that's sinning.

 

[Delivery]

Stand firm in what God has shown you and don't be defiled by those here who know not Christ. Nobody who is truly born again of the Holy Spirit would speak against holiness like so many here regularly do.

Maybe we need to stop for a moment and search the scriptures to see who are the ones who know Jesus and the ones who don't. We can start with the oft quoted but much misinterpreted, misunderstood, verses in Mathew 7:

[SUP]21[/SUP] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23[/SUP] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The "works" crowd always us this verse to try and show that you can't really know for sure if you're saved.They say that it shows a lot of people will think they are saved when they are not so just cause you believe in Jesus and say the sinners prayer doesn't mean you're saved. You might be one of those who think you're saved but are not so you better get with it and do a lot of good works so you can make sure you can get into heaven and are not one of those who are going to be cast out into outer darkness. But that's not what it says.

Let's look at verse 22: Many will say to me in that day, But, Lord, haven't we done a whole bunch of good works in your name? And I'm sure that many of them will have a whole list good works that they feel the Lord should pat them on the back for. Get the point? The ones who don't really know the Lord and whom the Lord doesn't know are those who believe they are saved by their good works. The people in verse 22 are people who thought they had to do all those good works to be saved. You can't really know the Lord if you believe you have to also do good works in order to be saved, because you're not depending only upon the Lord for your Salvation. It's like trying to climb up some other way, instead of going through the door into Heaven. Through Jesus.

Now, let's look at another verse:[SUP]4[/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Again, the saved by works crowd use this verse to show that, see, you can lose your Salvation, because,look it says right there, you can fall from grace. But of course, if you look at it closely you see that the only ones who are, so-called, fallen from Grace are those who don't believe in Grace, those who believe we have to keep the works of the law to be saved and justified. So, again, the scriptures are telling us those who don't depend fully on Jesus for their Salvation, but depend also on their own obedience to the rules and the law to be saved are the ones missing out and who could very well end up in Hell.

We can know for sure that we are saved:And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
[SUP]19[/SUP] And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
[SUP]20[/SUP] And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[Delivery]

I am sorry, it does not work this way. Nobody would be allowed in the Churches Paul started with this attitude and continuing in their sins while calling themselves a brother in Christ.

Well, I disagree because it's not about not sinning, never making a mistake, being able to keep the whole law,and have plenty of good works, It's about being forgiven for our sins and disobediences. It's about Jesus taking our punishment for us on the cross. But I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Jeff_56]

First John says: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It's not a case of willfully or unwillingly sinning. It's a case of having all your sins forgiven by believing in Jesus. The only way to willfully sin is to reject Jesus. To hear the Gospel of Salvation and forgiveness for your sins and then reject it because you love darkness rather than light, that's sinning.

(EDITED IN) (CLARIFICATION BELOW) (ALMOST)right in that if someone commits adultery, heresy, thievery, greed or other sin, they are denying or willfully rejecting Jesus and showing that they love darkness rather than light.

YAHWEH, JESUS, and the APOSTLES and the PROPHETS all told what to do to reconcile a brother , to bring back a believer who sins, from the error of their ways and save them from (______________).....


(consequences)

so, since all through YAHWEH'S WORD is clear instructions on what to do to say or to pray for other believers / fellow citizens in HIS people/kingdom
IF they sin ,
therefore, HIS PEOPLE CAN SIN, and it is not always and hopefully not often a sin UNTO DEATH......

i.e. the proposition doesn't pass the test of God's Word. it doesn't match up plumb and right with all of God's Word. it contradicts some of God's Word.

 

[Sirk]

Toothpicks....just pry their eyes open with your fingers and then prop them open with toothpicks.

 

[Jeff_56]

Well, I disagree because it's not about not sinning, never making a mistake, being able to keep the whole law,and have plenty of good works, It's about being forgiven for our sins and disobediences. It's about Jesus taking our punishment for us on the cross. But I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

in what you say here, you don't disagree like you think you do.

it IS ABOUT FORGIVENESS. how is that with the other(sinning)?

YAHWEH SAYS: if a brother sins and repents, forgive him and keep him in fellowship.

if a brother sins and sins and sins and keeps on sinning, after proper warnings and procedures (outlined clearly in YAHWEH'S INSTRUCTIONS --- no room left for any doubt nor shadow),

so if a brother sins continually , and after warnings does not repent but continues to sin,

THEN DO WHAT YAHWEH SAYS TO DO. DO WHAT IT IS WRITTEN TO DO. that is very simple, and you are not disagreeing with each other (from what you say in this post anyway)...

 

[DesiredHaven]

Heres a few that seem to go together

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son (((Jesus))), sent him to (((bless you))), in turning (((away))) every one of you from (((his iniquities)))

Titus 2:14 (((Who))) gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from (((all iniquity))) and purify (((unto himself))) a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

However,

Mat 7: 22 Many will say to me (((in that day))), Lord, Lord, have (((we not))) prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7: 23 (((And then))) will I profess unto (((them))), I never knew you: depart (((from me))) ye that (((work iniquity))).

So when Paul says this

2 Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,(((having))) this seal, The Lord knoweth (((them))) that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ (((depart from))) iniquity

Paul seems very aware of this

Mat 7: 23 (((And then))) will I profess unto them, I never knew (((you))): depart (((from me))) ye that (((work))) iniquity.

 

[Delivery]

Those of us who have truly been born again of the Holy Spirit and who have truly availed ourselves of the grace of God which delivers us FROM sin need not cut off any limbs nor pluck out our eyes. At the same time, however, Jesus was and still is notifying His hearers of the severity of sin and its punishment and He said that in the worst case scenario that we should lose a limb or an eye as opposed to continuing in sin and reaping its eternal consequences.

As far as any labels are concerned which you would like to attach to me, go right ahead. From the little that I've read of your posts, it's rather obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks for that insightful answer to my post. I'm not trying to put any labels on you. and I'll pray and ask Jesus to forgive me for the sin of not knowing what I'm talking about. Although, since, in most of my posts, about 80-90% of what I say are bible quotes, I'm sure that Jesus and the Apostles knew what they were talking about.

I'm sure that the Lords mercy overcomes my faults and failings and my "not knowing what I'm talking about". His mercy and forgiveness for our sins is what gives us the boldness to come into the Holiest of Holies and petition the Lord for help.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (The only thing that gives us the right to come unto the throne of Grace and petition the Lord is the Lords Grace, Love, and mercy, and forgiveness for our sins. Not our own righteous ability to do good.)

 

[Jeff_56]

so, if they work iniquity, may we or should we or even as a joyful privilege (or) obligation PRAY FOR THEM?

sometimes they sin the sin that leads to death, and for that no don't pray,
but sometimes they sin the sin that does not lead to death, yes for them pray then,

and other times with great caution "snatch them from the fire" so to speak and save them, and THAT covers a multitude of sins (the word says).


but and or what about the first thing the ekklesia assembly lost to the heresy deception that is the last thing finally restored to the

true believers/followers immersed in yahshua ? when the truth and scripture is spoken, the enemy at

once and sometimes(often?) vehemently attacks/ denies/ objects to it..... (or compromises it to have no power to save or to change lives).....

 

[Delivery]

in what you say here, you don't disagree like you think you do.

it IS ABOUT FORGIVENESS. how is that with the other(sinning)?

YAHWEH SAYS: if a brother sins and repents, forgive him and keep him in fellowship.

if a brother sins and sins and sins and keeps on sinning, after proper warnings and procedures (outlined clearly in YAHWEH'S INSTRUCTIONS --- no room left for any doubt nor shadow),

so if a brother sins continually , and after warnings does not repent but continues to sin,

THEN DO WHAT YAHWEH SAYS TO DO. DO WHAT IT IS WRITTEN TO DO. that is very simple, and you are not disagreeing with each other (from what you say in this post anyway)...

OK. But my main point in all this is that everybody sins, and is a sinner. If the verse about willfully sinning mean that you can lose your Salvation after you are saved by sinning then everybody in the world will lose their Salvation because nobody can be perfect enough to deserve Salvation by good works. No matter how hard you try to do good and be good you're still an imperfect sinner who deserves eternal damnation. So, the only way to be saved is to have your sins forgiven. So the real discrepancy is in what does it mean to willfully sin? If your sins are forgiven you then that means you won't be punished for them. So the question is, are you a saved sinner or an unsaved sinner? If you beleive in Jesus as your Lord and Savior then your a sinner saved by the grace of Jesus. This idea that you have to stop sinning after you're saved is ludicrous, because nobody can. that's why we need Jesus.

 

[Jeff_56]

if you become a citizen of the united states, there are requirements set forth by law --- is that too hard to do?

the commandments of Jesus, including all ten words, are light and they are not burdensome. that's what Jesus says.

why do you think they are ludicrous ? is it hard for you to not commit sexual sin like adultery and perverted sex with animals or perverted same sex sin ? is it hard for you to not steal ?
is it hard for you not to worship false gods?
is it hard for you not to be greedy ?

 

[MarcR]

Oh, so people like Paul were arrogant when they stood in doubt of others, right? Good to know. There goes most of the Bible, right down the drain. Seriously, what Bible do you people read?

Paul, had indisputable authority, to disciple and Spiritually discipline those churches he had planted, and their daughter churches. The people in those assemblies had willingly and knowingly placed themselves under his authority.

You have been given NO AUTHORITY over anyone on this forum unless they are members of a church that you are responsible for.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Paul, had indisputable authority, to disciple and Spiritually discipline those churches he had planted, and their daughter churches. The people in those assemblies had willingly and knowingly placed themselves under his authority.

You have been given NO AUTHORITY over anyone on this forum unless they are members of a church that you are responsible for.

I never said that I had authority over anybody here. Ironically, you seem to think that I'm under your authority, but I'm not. As such, save your sermon for the mirror.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Maybe we need to stop for a moment and search the scriptures to see who are the ones who know Jesus and the ones who don't. We can start with the oft quoted but much misinterpreted, misunderstood, verses in Mathew 7:

[SUP]21[/SUP] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22[/SUP] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23[/SUP] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The "works" crowd always us this verse to try and show that you can't really know for sure if you're saved.They say that it shows a lot of people will think they are saved when they are not so just cause you believe in Jesus and say the sinners prayer doesn't mean you're saved. You might be one of those who think you're saved but are not so you better get with it and do a lot of good works so you can make sure you can get into heaven and are not one of those who are going to be cast out into outer darkness. But that's not what it says.

Let's look at verse 22: Many will say to me in that day, But, Lord, haven't we done a whole bunch of good works in your name? And I'm sure that many of them will have a whole list good works that they feel the Lord should pat them on the back for. Get the point? The ones who don't really know the Lord and whom the Lord doesn't know are those who believe they are saved by their good works. The people in verse 22 are people who thought they had to do all those good works to be saved. You can't really know the Lord if you believe you have to also do good works in order to be saved, because you're not depending only upon the Lord for your Salvation. It's like trying to climb up some other way, instead of going through the door into Heaven. Through Jesus.

Ironically, you've only managed to prove, once again, that you don't know what you're talking about.

For starters, the "wonderful works" aren't the type of "good works" which you apparently think them to be. IOW, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "wonderful" is "dynamis" and it has to do with the type of power which Jesus promised His disciples that they would receive from on high or with the baptism of the Holy Ghost. As such, these "wonderful works" are talking about the gifts of the Spirit and such things as casting out of demons and prophesying...just as Jesus said.

On the other hand, we have "the workers of iniquity" OR THE WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS whom Jesus will tell to depart one day. IOW, one can operate in the gifts of the Spirit, but not walk in the fruit of the Spirit by continuing on in a life of sin and such will be turned away by Jesus on Judgment Day.

Seriously, just go and learn something before you attempt to teach anybody.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Heres a few that seem to go together

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son (((Jesus))), sent him to (((bless you))), in turning (((away))) every one of you from (((his iniquities)))

Titus 2:14 (((Who))) gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from (((all iniquity))) and purify (((unto himself))) a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

However,

Mat 7: 22 Many will say to me (((in that day))), Lord, Lord, have (((we not))) prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7: 23 (((And then))) will I profess unto (((them))), I never knew you: depart (((from me))) ye that (((work iniquity))).

So when Paul says this

2 Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,(((having))) this seal, The Lord knoweth (((them))) that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ (((depart from))) iniquity

Paul seems very aware of this

Mat 7: 23 (((And then))) will I profess unto them, I never knew (((you))): depart (((from me))) ye that (((work))) iniquity.

Exactly.

Those who don't truly depart from iniquity or inequity or that which is unequal to the Lord's ways will be told to "Depart" by Jesus on Judgment Day.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Thanks for that insightful answer to my post. I'm not trying to put any labels on you. and I'll pray and ask Jesus to forgive me for the sin of not knowing what I'm talking about. Although, since, in most of my posts, about 80-90% of what I say are bible quotes, I'm sure that Jesus and the Apostles knew what they were talking about.

I'm sure that the Lords mercy overcomes my faults and failings and my "not knowing what I'm talking about". His mercy and forgiveness for our sins is what gives us the boldness to come into the Holiest of Holies and petition the Lord for help.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (The only thing that gives us the right to come unto the throne of Grace and petition the Lord is the Lords Grace, Love, and mercy, and forgiveness for our sins. Not our own righteous ability to do good.)

Your posts could potentially contain 100% of Bible quotes, but if you don't know what they mean, then it profits you nothing.

 

[WheresEnoch]

Just find one place where Jesus says that those who continue to sin after coming to a knowledge of the truth are justified before God.
Or one instance where He says sin is no big deal, don't worry about it. That He's got your back no matter which master you choose to serve with your thoughts, words or actions

Sin = Rebellion / evil / death / destruction / hate