Thank you for replying. I cannot discuss the feasts.. I have my understanding which is yet to be completed, and having heard varying viewpoints of understanding my reply could only cause another vein to pop up in this thread. Jesus Christ crucified is all any ned know in profundity for salvation, so for now, I must opt out on this. Yahweh bless you andhold you close..........
Jesus killed the law causing enmity to cease
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Correction please, it is 'just you' and not more of 'abiding' in CHRIST's words/teachings and through the Apostles of the New Covenant in you.
First of all, as Apostle Paul said the actual benefits of the 'Law of the Letter', that without that 'Law' that acted as a 'custodian' first, he wouldn't have known what he have sinned against GOD and fellow men, therefore then in order to come under Grace and Truth/Gospel of GOD through CHRIST, now forgiven of all past failed battles against sin and death, by now having faith in CHRIST.
Since henceforth from death now alive and led to have 'faith' in CHRIST, as our Savior and Redeemer, only 'by Grace through faith, the free gift of GOD', have been freely welcomed in, introduced us to HIS SON, as our MASTER and of HIS 'house' now.
And so we are no longer under the 'Law' but under 'Grace'. But the MASTER/CHRIST of the 'house' also brought the 'Truth' according to the Gospel of John, 'Grace and Truth'. Therefore the truth of the New Covenant instructs us to hear HIS words/teachings and do/practice them and become as 'wise builders'. And also 'abide' in them and love according to them and that truth shall set us free. When the MASTER sets us free, indeed we are free.
GOD's Grace is not oppose to the 'Law', but according to Apostle Paul, 'Grace upholds the Law'. Actually the weak carnal/flesh's passions and desires opposed GOD's Law from the beginning.
What a 'babes in CHRIST' of carnality 'testimony', to testify Grace and the Law are arch enemies?
Galatians chapter 5, helps us 'grow up' to know and live faithfully and not perish once again, who is truthfully the 'arch enemy' of GOD and HIS SPIRIT and that dishonors HIS SON, even LORD JESUS CHRIST, MASTER of the 'redeemed' house of GOD from slavery.
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive you and bless you.
First of all, as Apostle Paul said the actual benefits of the 'Law of the Letter', that without that 'Law' that acted as a 'custodian' first, he wouldn't have known what he have sinned against GOD and fellow men, therefore then in order to come under Grace and Truth/Gospel of GOD through CHRIST, now forgiven of all past failed battles against sin and death, by now having faith in CHRIST.
Since henceforth from death now alive and led to have 'faith' in CHRIST, as our Savior and Redeemer, only 'by Grace through faith, the free gift of GOD', have been freely welcomed in, introduced us to HIS SON, as our MASTER and of HIS 'house' now.
And so we are no longer under the 'Law' but under 'Grace'. But the MASTER/CHRIST of the 'house' also brought the 'Truth' according to the Gospel of John, 'Grace and Truth'. Therefore the truth of the New Covenant instructs us to hear HIS words/teachings and do/practice them and become as 'wise builders'. And also 'abide' in them and love according to them and that truth shall set us free. When the MASTER sets us free, indeed we are free.
GOD's Grace is not oppose to the 'Law', but according to Apostle Paul, 'Grace upholds the Law'. Actually the weak carnal/flesh's passions and desires opposed GOD's Law from the beginning.
What a 'babes in CHRIST' of carnality 'testimony', to testify Grace and the Law are arch enemies?
Galatians chapter 5, helps us 'grow up' to know and live faithfully and not perish once again, who is truthfully the 'arch enemy' of GOD and HIS SPIRIT and that dishonors HIS SON, even LORD JESUS CHRIST, MASTER of the 'redeemed' house of GOD from slavery.
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive you and bless you.
The Jesus' words concerning Moses and circumcision.
"Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man." John 7:22
Romans 2:25-29
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I agree with both Jesus and Paul. Physical circumcision was required in Israel (via the covenant with Abraham, being his seed) before the New Covenant. Not being stiffnecked by the circumcision of the heart was required in the teachings of Moses and Paul.
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29
"Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man." John 7:22
Romans 2:25-29
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I agree with both Jesus and Paul. Physical circumcision was required in Israel (via the covenant with Abraham, being his seed) before the New Covenant. Not being stiffnecked by the circumcision of the heart was required in the teachings of Moses and Paul.
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29
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What biblelogic01 shared is defiantly worth the time to read. I agree with the scripture and the commentaries he offered 100% It is very long, but worth reading and worth the meditation. Prophecy says Israel is not a nation of the past that has forever been forsaken. Paul preaches that we should have the heart to be part of them, and them connected with us. Let us strive for that end which is God's will from the beginning. That's what the New Covenant requires of us.
this is what he posted
Ezekiel 37:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
this is what he posted
Ezekiel 37:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
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he did fulfill it
1. He never broke it (moral law)
2. He suffered the penalty of the law in our place (priestly law)
3. he did what we could never do (see 1 and 2)
and because of it, the law can never condemn us again.
the law was a teaching tool (moral, priestly and ceremonial) to lead us to Christ. after we have come to Christ, the law has done its job.
Why do we need to keep following the tutor. when the tutors job is done?
1. The moral law. we still can not keep (we still keep sinning, and apart from Christ, would suffer what the moral law demands, which is a curse (death)
2. The priestly law never took away sin, and can not take away sin today (everyone seems to think this is the ONLY part jesus fulfilled)
3. What good are the ceremonial laws going to do us? studying them is one thing, and every new child of God should do this, but if repetition observance of these things going to bring us closer to god (Considering pauls warning against this in Galatians, I would think quite the opposite, and suggest we take pauls warning, and stay away from this, for he FEARED what it would do to us.
The law will never fade, not one jot or tittle. as long as their are people who need Jesus, the schoolmaster will never die. but for us who have come to Christ, what need is their of a schoolmaster. it did its job!
1. He never broke it (moral law)
2. He suffered the penalty of the law in our place (priestly law)
3. he did what we could never do (see 1 and 2)
and because of it, the law can never condemn us again.
the law was a teaching tool (moral, priestly and ceremonial) to lead us to Christ. after we have come to Christ, the law has done its job.
Why do we need to keep following the tutor. when the tutors job is done?
1. The moral law. we still can not keep (we still keep sinning, and apart from Christ, would suffer what the moral law demands, which is a curse (death)
2. The priestly law never took away sin, and can not take away sin today (everyone seems to think this is the ONLY part jesus fulfilled)
3. What good are the ceremonial laws going to do us? studying them is one thing, and every new child of God should do this, but if repetition observance of these things going to bring us closer to god (Considering pauls warning against this in Galatians, I would think quite the opposite, and suggest we take pauls warning, and stay away from this, for he FEARED what it would do to us.
The law will never fade, not one jot or tittle. as long as their are people who need Jesus, the schoolmaster will never die. but for us who have come to Christ, what need is their of a schoolmaster. it did its job!
Not sure what you are really getting at. I know these verses and what they say. Yes, God circumcised the heart of the Old Testament saints just as he does with the New Testament saint. Nothing has changed when it comes to salvation. Men have always been justified by faith and always repented of their sins in order to get right with God. God then would regenerate a person's spirit and renew their heart and then live within them. Not sure how this proves your case that the Law of Moses is still in effect in some way.
good morning
I apologize I didn't read your earlier post.Sounds like we agree on grace and I believe that a person that has received Grace will not want to sin but after you have received Grace you should renew your mind so that you can prove that good and perfect will of GOD.
Remember though that the issue that brings salvation is faith in JESUS and not a person has got to stop sinning although Grace will cause them to not want to sin.
I apologize I didn't read your earlier post.Sounds like we agree on grace and I believe that a person that has received Grace will not want to sin but after you have received Grace you should renew your mind so that you can prove that good and perfect will of GOD.
Remember though that the issue that brings salvation is faith in JESUS and not a person has got to stop sinning although Grace will cause them to not want to sin.
But with the Word of God we have several ways to test an interpretation of being true or not, though. Not only just by the Spirit do we confirm the truth thru constant prayer on a passage, but we also cross reference Scripture with other Scripture that says the same thing. We also look at the context and see if that particular truth can be made into a real world example of some kind, too. False doctrine usually cannot be illustrated by using a real world example.
No. Sin has always been separation from God. That has never changed.
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Instead of making this about me, why don't we stick to discussing the Scriptures in a loving and respectful way?
Anyways, the key difference between what I believe according to the Bible and the Antinomian who thinks they can sin and still be saved is that:
(a) The true believer does not make excuses for sin. A true believer is told not to sin by John and if they do sin, they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), whereby they can confess their sins and be forgiven and cleansed (1 John 1:9). This will then lead the true believer to then walk in the light as he is in the light (1 John 1:7).
(b) The Antinomian believes that all future sin is forgiven them. So confessing sin and or forsaking sin is not a top priority to be in a right relationship with God and His salvation. So they then have a license to sin (if they want).
A real world example would be a man who cheats on his wife and hopes to be forgiven by her. So the man says he is sorry and stops cheating on his wife. This then begins the true healing in their relationship if she forgives him. But according to Antinomianism: She is just expected to forgive him (Even when he does not change or say he is sorry). She is supposed to act like everything is fine and sleep with her husband and catch a sexual disease because he is sleeping around on her.
Another example is an alcoholic who is striving to stop drinking. The alcoholic might stumble on his road to recovery, but if his efforts were sincere to truly stop, then he cannot be blamed because he did indeed stop becoming an alcoholic. Yet, the Antinomian is saying that one can never stop being an alcoholic. They will forever be one, so why even try.
Anyways, I use real world examples because Jesus used them (i.e. the parables). In other words, if there was any sliver of truth to the Antinomian view on salvation then they would have no problem making a real world example out it. But I know they cannot do that, though (Because there is no goodness or truth in that type of a belief).
Anyways, the key difference between what I believe according to the Bible and the Antinomian who thinks they can sin and still be saved is that:
(a) The true believer does not make excuses for sin. A true believer is told not to sin by John and if they do sin, they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), whereby they can confess their sins and be forgiven and cleansed (1 John 1:9). This will then lead the true believer to then walk in the light as he is in the light (1 John 1:7).
(b) The Antinomian believes that all future sin is forgiven them. So confessing sin and or forsaking sin is not a top priority to be in a right relationship with God and His salvation. So they then have a license to sin (if they want).
A real world example would be a man who cheats on his wife and hopes to be forgiven by her. So the man says he is sorry and stops cheating on his wife. This then begins the true healing in their relationship if she forgives him. But according to Antinomianism: She is just expected to forgive him (Even when he does not change or say he is sorry). She is supposed to act like everything is fine and sleep with her husband and catch a sexual disease because he is sleeping around on her.
Another example is an alcoholic who is striving to stop drinking. The alcoholic might stumble on his road to recovery, but if his efforts were sincere to truly stop, then he cannot be blamed because he did indeed stop becoming an alcoholic. Yet, the Antinomian is saying that one can never stop being an alcoholic. They will forever be one, so why even try.
Anyways, I use real world examples because Jesus used them (i.e. the parables). In other words, if there was any sliver of truth to the Antinomian view on salvation then they would have no problem making a real world example out it. But I know they cannot do that, though (Because there is no goodness or truth in that type of a belief).
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Circumcision of the heart is first mentioned in Deuteronomy. This spiritual concept of the law during Moses' day is substantiated in the New Testament scriptures.
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16
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