Did the Ten Commandments Precede Moses?

just-me · May 30, 2015

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:2-3

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Hebrews 4:4

Let's not make this thread another Sabbath thread please.

just-me · May 30, 2015

posthuman said:

Paul explains that we have died to the written code, and been released to it, and uses the command (from Torah) "you shall not covet" as an example -

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
(Romans 7:6-7)

he goes on to explain that there was a time when this law had not been given -

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
(Romans 7:9)

this doesn't preclude that the covetousness is wrong, and always has been, and always will be -- but it seems to clearly show us that as a commandment, there was a time that it didn't exist, and that now as a written code, we are free from it (through the crucifixion of Christ within ourselves).

although the word he is using is simply "law" and not "Torah" by context we can see that he is talking specifically about the law given through Moses, and arguments can be made to more general application of the principle that aren't entirely relevant here. but Paul also associates the giving of the commandments with Moses -

Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law:

“The person who does these things will live by them.”

(Romans 10:4-5)

and seeing that he says ((quoted above)) that there was a time before the law which reveals sin was given, if he is not talking about Torah, what could he be referring to?

my feeling overall is that this is moot.
if we walk by the Spirit, we will not be led to steal, covet, murder, or lie - or any of these things that were given in written code to Israel.
being free from the condemnation of the law doesn't change what is right vs. what is wrong, and being under grace vs. under law doesn't mean we are in bondage to an even stricter law.
the burden has been lifted, not enlarged!

This might be an explanation that there were many people who obeyed God (circumcised in their heart [not the flesh]) in the Old Testament that truly did have God's Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Interesting!

just-me · May 30, 2015

By the time Israel entered the land of Canaan, the nations there had “run the full course”—they had surpassed the threshold of moral collapse, much like nations have done today. God knew that this would happen and had told Abram about it, over 400 years earlier: “And you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they [Abram’s seed—the nation Israel] shall come here again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full” (Gen. 15:15-16).

Here, the word “iniquity” comes from the Hebrew word avon, which means “perversity, mischief or sin.” If there had been no law in force, there would not have been any iniquity or sin for the Amorites, or any other nation, to commit. Refer to Leviticus 18:3, 19-30 for more description of the iniquity and abominations committed by the Canaanites. They included sacrificing—murdering—their children in the fire of Molech, every form of adultery and sexual perversity, and profaning the name of God.

Take a look at the pre-Flood world: “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen. 6:1-3, 5-6). The word “wickedness” used here comes from the Hebrew word rah, which means “exceedingly evil.” So wicked was mankind that verse 6 tells us, “And it repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.” This wickedness brought every conceivable type of sin and blatant disregard for the sanctity of life.
These sins were imputed—pointed out—by the laws of God—the Ten Commandments, which existed from the creation of mankind.

These examples show that all the Ten Commandments preceded Moses. From Adam to Moses, all men had sinned—had broken God’s laws, the Ten Commandments. That is why God commended Abraham, saying, “Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws” (Gen. 26:5).

Abraham sacrificed to Melchizedek, and Noah also sacrificed after the ark landed, and they walked out on dry land. Noah knew that clean animals were to be used because he brought 7 couples of each clean animal into the ark before the flood.

pwrnJC · May 30, 2015

You are only beating a dead horse here. Yes..GOD gave the Ten Commandments for a reason, in the time that HE did..and for the purpose of having a documented agenda for HIs chosen peoples. Trying to resurrect and bring to light the importance of the original Ten Commandments is like showing the world that the 8-track tapes were valid, were a huge part of the musical scene then...and should be lifted to a higher level of importance. JESUS CHRIST is the ultimate law-giver who summed it all up in one sentence. "LOVE YE ONE ANOTHER..." That love keeps us from wanting to kill, or commit adultery, or rob, etc. Why do you need to focus on this eternally? I guarantee you that if you spend more time studying the Holy Spirit and utilizing the 9 spiritual gifts that you need to discover, you will not have time to post more rhetoric here online. Instead, we will see testimonies, supernatural events and more coming from your direction, more praise, more "UMP" from your spiritual walk..instead of tons of questions that leave us spinning our wheels.

posthuman · May 30, 2015

it's interesting that Paul uses covetousness as an example there in Romans 7 -- instead of murder or theft or adultery.

perhaps it is because while men everywhere understand that those latter evils are wrong, coveting is not so clearly revealed as sin apart from the law ((or indeed apart from the Spirit that works in us)) -- for an example, turn on your television set. in any given 30 minutes time you can watch a drama in which things like murder and lies are universally perceived as wrong, but interspersed in the TV show will be advertisements actively encouraging you to covet.

to answer the OP ((i guess i'm answering the OP?)) certainly from Adam to the present day, it has been unrighteous to practice idolatry or to take what is not yours or to lie. what changed ((for Israel, specifically, not the whole world)) when the law was given is that these things were spelled out and condemned, revealing sin and justice through the command. what changed when we accepted Christ as a propitiation for us and a reconciliation with God is that the condemnation was taken away.

it is not as though the grace of God through Christ says "we are now free to lie, cheat and steal!" -- even though some may say that.

EDIT:
removed needless sabbath comments

posthuman · May 30, 2015

just-me said:

amen to that

please disregard the last paragraph of my previous post here:

posthuman said:

peacefulbeliever · May 30, 2015

No.

The law was added BECAUSE of transgressions . . . .

posthuman · May 30, 2015

just-me said:

for example:

In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job.
This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
(Job 1:1)

i don't know about whether Job had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. i am thinking that the Spirit didn't come to the earth and dwell in men until after pentecost -- that's actually a point of contention in a discussion i was having with some mormon missionaries over the last month.. ((probably worth another thread))

but Job knew what evil was, and shunned it -- before Moses!
so was Job righteous by law, or by faith? by faith, because he was not living under any written law, right?
and - wow! - by faith, he was compelled to do righteous things!

oops - let's not turn this into another faith/works thread either.

just-me · May 30, 2015

[h=1]Genesis 1:29-30 Plants and Fruits that are allowed[/h] Genesis 1:29-30 And Yahweh said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Notice that in the beginning of the verse Yahweh says “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth and every tree with seed in its fruit”. There are so many levels of discussion here but we are going to stick to just a couple. Later in this verse, notice that HE changes and says “I have given every green plant for food” but doesn’t mention it needing to yield seed. Does Yahweh change? Has HE decided one verse later that it doesn’t matter if the plant yields seed or the tree fruit “bears seed” in order for it to be an allowable thing to eat. Let’s use the scriptures to see if it is possible that Yahweh changes.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Well, there is the answer to that. Yahweh DOES NOT CHANGE. Why doesn’t HE mention it must have seeds the second time then? It is because HE already established which plants we can and can’t eat not even one verse before that. There is no need for HIM to repeat Himself on this issue over and over again. If we know the green plant or fruit must yield seed then we know from that point on, we are to ONLY eat seed bearing plants and fruits. This was established from the beginning and will continue FOREVER. It will not change. Somehow Yahweh knows what plants are healthy for us. Our guess is that HE was pretty smart.

just-me · May 30, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

Think about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was clearly a transgression. Abel made animal sacrifice also.

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: Genesis 4:4

Rhetorically, how did Abel know what sacrifice would be approved of by God?

valiant · May 30, 2015

just-me said:

No, he had offended (unknowingly) against the custom that a ruler should not take the wife of another ruler. That is not the same thing as obeying the seventh commandment. And he did what he did because GOD warned him off. He was not told that he had broken God's commandments.

Of course the ten commands reflect what God is. Clearly God would require what lay behind them to be fulfilled. But that is not the same thing as to say that the seventh command was humanly in force. Abimelech recognised that he had offended God by what he had done. He would not consequently cease to commit adultery. He would just be more careful whom he did it with.

The uniqueness of the seventh command in Israel was that it applied to all classes of people high and low. Thus if a king took pleasure from the wife of a farmer who only had two cows he was guilty under the ten commands. He would not necessarily have been guilty under the law of Hammurabi, even though that law had certain commands against adultery in certain circumstances.

Note that there was no blame attached to Abraham for lying. It was simply seen as politic. And in fact it was not 'bearing false witness'. That referred to judicial lying.

Jeff_56 · May 30, 2015

his parents walked with yahweh and talked with yahweh and had fellowship with yahweh.

yahweh told them a lot , simple.

abel talked with and walked with and had fellowship with his parents and was raised up right in the way he should go, and listened.

as for the seed.... etc... >>
[h=1] Genesis 1:29-30Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
[/h] [SUP]29 [/SUP]Then God said, “Here! Throughout the whole earth I am giving you as food every seed-bearing plant and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. [SUP]

30 [/SUP]And to every wild animal, bird in the air and creature crawling on the earth, in which there is a living soul, I am giving as food every kind of green plant.” And that is how it was.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

valiant · May 30, 2015

just-me said:

Not however related to the ten commands.

Strictly speaking he made an offering and not a sacrifice. Abel's offering was a gift offering. He was giving to God what he had in order to show Him praise and gratitude. He kept small cattle. So he offered small cattle. He needed nothing other than common sense. We must not read later sacrificial ideas into Abel.

Cain offered what he produced also as a gift offering. Meal offerings were acceptable offerings. He was not condemned because of what he offered but because of his attitude of heart.

posthuman · May 30, 2015

just-me said:

so no liverworts, horsetails, ferns or mosses . .

i was trying to come up with an example of a non-seed-bearing plant that is commonly eaten, but came up empty. some of these classes of plants are used in medicines, topical and internal. does anyone know of a non-seed-bearing plant that's used for food?

valiant · May 30, 2015

posthuman said:

The question is, could Job have been like this without God dwelling within him? To my mind the answer is no. And if God dwelt within him then the Holy Spirit dwelt within him. That was also the difference between those who were circumcised in heart and those who were not. Men were born of the Spirit of God before Pentecost (John 3.1-7; 4.10-14). What Pentecost was was a special empowering to take the Gospel to the world (Acts 1.8). Men sang about the Holy Spirit active in their lives when they were in the Temple (Psalm 143.10; 51.10).

oldthennew · May 30, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

========================================

dear peacefulbeliever,

we have been studying this point of scripture on and off for quite a few years and have
truly enjoyed delving into it and appreciating the things that we have learned and discovered.

yes, it does say that the Law was added because of transgressions, the question is, what was it added to?
because Paul states that because where no Law is, there is no transgression' - so, what is being transgressed?

we have read multiple commentaries and as you can believe, along with these commentaries a multitude of
contrasting opinions come with a lot of valid scriptural argument.

may every one of us be convicted in their minds and hearts of God's Holy Truth, whether sooner or later.

valiant · May 30, 2015

posthuman said:

edible mushrooms? LOL depends on your definition of plant. but it is something non seed bearing that we eat.

valiant · May 30, 2015

just-me said:

It is you who is over-emphasising the Sabbath, not me. I simply pointed out that it was not enforced before Exodus 16. That is relevant to the OP. Neither Sabbath observance nor coveting were laws until the time of Moses.

Gen 2.1-3 does not mention the Sabbath. There was no law of the Sabbath before Exodus 16.

posthuman · May 30, 2015

valiant said:

nope; mushrooms reproduce with spores -- those are seeds. the difference being how many cells are in them - "seeds" (properly, in botanical terms) are more complex, but spores are a a single cell.

posthuman · May 30, 2015

valiant said:

my feeling is that what happened at pentecost was more than just empowering; it began indwelling - and Christ had spoken of 'the Comforter' as being not yet come, but to be sent after He departed from the earth.
the passages in Psalms there use the same language as in Psalm 104:30 - "When you send your Spirit, they are created" - referring to all living creatures. i am unsure whether this is the same as the Holy Spirit as talked about in the NT - and also whether or not being 'led by the spirit of God' is the same as being 'indwelt by' that spirit. for example the exodus, when Israel was led by the pillar, but the pillar was not inside them.

it's not all clear and settled in my head and may just be nothing but my own dim understanding and some meaningless quibbling i shouldn't introduce

thanks for the references

sorry for sidetracking the thread.

Did the Ten Commandments Precede Moses?

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