Did the Ten Commandments Precede Moses?
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(sorry, just had to ignore some recent posts that are the strangest set of posts ;
there is just a complete emptiness about them - not substance of evil nor of good - just very strange and void) (and without explanation.... perhaps someday, perhaps today... don't know)
back to your question just-me:
realizing that the enemy is presented in GOD'S WORD in places as a snake, a serpent, the deceiver, appearing as an angel of light.....
when he comes to you or me or others, does he crawl in under the bed, a snake, and talk to you?
or does he show up as a refined, upright, perfect 'credentials' recognized by the 'world' ,
well-dressed (or appropriately to appear as if it's someone to listen to),
or using the agency of a temptress/ seductress/ 'pretty little harmless even delightful woman'
i.e.
when satan comes to tempt, is it with horns and pitchfork or with appearance of legitimacy and 'proper'? manners ?
then, still remaining in prayer with /in union with yahweh (god) in yahshua,
the obvious clear and simple truth will be opened to you by yahweh himself..... shalom !
there is just a complete emptiness about them - not substance of evil nor of good - just very strange and void) (and without explanation.... perhaps someday, perhaps today... don't know)
back to your question just-me:
realizing that the enemy is presented in GOD'S WORD in places as a snake, a serpent, the deceiver, appearing as an angel of light.....
when he comes to you or me or others, does he crawl in under the bed, a snake, and talk to you?
or does he show up as a refined, upright, perfect 'credentials' recognized by the 'world' ,
well-dressed (or appropriately to appear as if it's someone to listen to),
or using the agency of a temptress/ seductress/ 'pretty little harmless even delightful woman'
i.e.
when satan comes to tempt, is it with horns and pitchfork or with appearance of legitimacy and 'proper'? manners ?
then, still remaining in prayer with /in union with yahweh (god) in yahshua,
the obvious clear and simple truth will be opened to you by yahweh himself..... shalom !
Have you read the Bible? God makes things good. Man makes things bad, and then the curse comes according to God's righteous judgments. It's not God's creation that all of a sudden changes without any warrant. You are talking like God creates things that are not pure and good. God doesn't produce trespasses or iniquity. Point your finger of blame in the correct direction. God's animal creation has always represented what was acceptable and what was not for our learning, representing humans in mediator. Sorry that you are unable to discern these spiritual concepts. You are always endorsing as if it's God fault and not ours. Straw woman? LOL
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Have you read the Bible? God makes things good. Man makes things bad, and then the curse comes according to God's righteous judgments. It's not God's creation that all of a sudden changes without any warrant. You are talking like God creates things that are not pure and good. God doesn't produce trespasses or iniquity. Point your finger of blame in the correct direction. God's animal creation has always represented what was acceptable and what was not for our learning, representing humans in mediator. Sorry that you are unable to discern these spiritual concepts. You are always endorsing as if it's God fault and not ours. Straw woman? LOL
God's animal creation has always represented what was acceptable and what was not for our learning, representing humans in metaphor/parable.
Have you read the Bible? God makes things good. Man makes things bad, and then the curse comes according to God's righteous judgments. It's not God's creation that all of a sudden changes without any warrant. You are talking like God creates things that are not pure and good. God doesn't produce trespasses or iniquity. Point your finger of blame in the correct direction. God's animal creation has always represented what was acceptable and what was not for our learning, representing humans in mediator. Sorry that you are unable to discern these spiritual concepts. You are always endorsing as if it's God fault and not ours. Straw woman? LOL
Have you read the Bible? God makes things good. Man makes things bad, and then the curse comes according to God's righteous judgments. It's not God's creation that all of a sudden changes without any warrant. You are talking like God creates things that are not pure and good. God doesn't produce trespasses or iniquity. Point your finger of blame in the correct direction. God's animal creation has always represented what was acceptable and what was not for our learning, representing humans in metaphor/parable. Sorry that you are unable to discern these spiritual concepts. You are always endorsing as if it's God fault and not ours. Straw woman? LOL
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Taking a verse out of context to prove a point does no justice for God's word.
This verse from 1 Corinthians 4:6 the Apostle Paul is speaking about going beyond the written word of God to add things unto His word to make judgments on others. Which Paul says in the previous verse not to judge anybody before the Lord returns.
This has nothing to do with rather God had in affect the 10 commandments before they were given in written form on tablets of stone to Moses.
Remember that Cain knew it was wrong when he killed Able, and pleaded with God not to let any harm come to him for his sin of killing his brother. Therefore shall not kill was in affect, and even was the other part of this moral that the Lord gave in the NT that to not do anything in vengeance. As vengeance and life and death decisions are to be left up to the Lord our God.
If you however are also referring to rather the 10 Commandments still apply or not, and if you believe they don't.
Then what I posted does not go beyond what the written word says, as the chart I gave clearly shows how the NT covenant still upholds the 10 commandments plus any other commands given by the Lord.
When I read "upside down" this came to mind: Acts 17:2-6 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging that Christ must needs have suffered and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude and of the chief women not a few, But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received; and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. . . . And he continued there [Corinth] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Pal, and brought him to the judgment seat, Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. . . . And he continued there [Corinth] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Pal, and brought him to the judgment seat, Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.
we (assembled in christ jesus) do not see a purpose in the postings - neither 'good' nor 'bad'.... but just like from a 'formula' or a 'program' without any live being, emotion, feeling, or purpose.
no attempts by anyone so far (as we have seen) are able to have effect good or bad on it.
now, if it turns out to be someone paraplegic (or very scared and just desperately) attempting to have contact with others,
we shall all be repenting and seeking any way possible to help....
but that's not been revealed --- and if anything ever will be revealed , we don't know....
as some have noted, and someone else pointed out>>
re> (et al)(etc etc etc.... )
no attempts by anyone so far (as we have seen) are able to have effect good or bad on it.
now, if it turns out to be someone paraplegic (or very scared and just desperately) attempting to have contact with others,
we shall all be repenting and seeking any way possible to help....
but that's not been revealed --- and if anything ever will be revealed , we don't know....
as some have noted, and someone else pointed out>>
re> (et al)(etc etc etc.... )
Good post. It is apparent that those who accused Paul of teaching things contrary to the law were actually the ones who were endorsing vain traditions that actually were contrary to the law. That's the "upside-down" scenario.
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33
So . . . . I went through from when Paul started preaching to see if I could in all honesty add "endorsing vain traditions" to 18:13 "This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law" and that this was the "upside down" scenario.
Acts 9:20,22 And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. . . But Saul [Paul] increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Acts 13:16,23,32,38,39 Then Paul stood up and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience . . (brings OT into remembrance - v17-22) . . Of this man's seed (David) hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: . . . And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee. . . . Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (1st thing contrary to the law because they believed by the works of the law one could be justified and made righteous Deut. 6:25)
Acts 14:7 And there they preached the gospel.
Acts 15:1,3b,5,8-11,24,28,29 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. . . . (3b) declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. . . But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses (Note these were believing Pharisees) . . . And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the holy Spirit even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. . . . . For it seemed good to the holy Spirit and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (2nd thing contrary to the law of Moses - no more circumcision).
Acts 17:2,3 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you is Christ.
"It is apparent that those who accused Paul of teaching things contrary to the law were actually the ones who were endorsing vain traditions that actually were contrary to the law. That's the "upside-down" scenario." . . . so bottom line - I don't see this.
Acts 9:20,22 And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. . . But Saul [Paul] increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Acts 13:16,23,32,38,39 Then Paul stood up and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience . . (brings OT into remembrance - v17-22) . . Of this man's seed (David) hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: . . . And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee. . . . Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (1st thing contrary to the law because they believed by the works of the law one could be justified and made righteous Deut. 6:25)
Acts 14:7 And there they preached the gospel.
Acts 15:1,3b,5,8-11,24,28,29 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. . . . (3b) declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. . . But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses (Note these were believing Pharisees) . . . And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the holy Spirit even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. . . . . For it seemed good to the holy Spirit and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (2nd thing contrary to the law of Moses - no more circumcision).
Acts 17:2,3 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you is Christ.
"It is apparent that those who accused Paul of teaching things contrary to the law were actually the ones who were endorsing vain traditions that actually were contrary to the law. That's the "upside-down" scenario." . . . so bottom line - I don't see this.
I'll explain further. Paul said (about himself) that he worshiped believing all that was written in the law and the prophets. Acts 24:14b "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" He was describing his worship by an UN-defiled law that came directly from God without any additions, or subtractions that came from a Pharisaical tradition.
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23
One must also keep in mind that physical circumcision wasn't introduced via the law at Sinai. It was a sign of the covenant with Abraham. The law introduces the circumcision of the heart, (twice in Deuteronomy, and once in Jeremiah) same as the circumcision of the new covenant through Christ.
Satan desired the law to be messed up during the time of Christ on this earth. Because that didn't work for him, today he is doing all he can to make it void. In either case the end result is the same for this "upside-down" adversarial persuasion.
If a person would diligently observe all the law by their own strength, they would still never be made righteous, because it is God who makes righteous, not the act of observance itself. All observance of the law teachings (Torah) must be based on faith. Our observance is according to the will of God, and is done in a manner that is pleasing to Him.
The law given via Moses reveals our Messiah, and Messiah is the fullness of the law in its pure form. It's the Torah teachings that establish the criteria for Messiah's righteousness. Therefore, it is impossible to be justified by the law without faith in Christ Jesus. Belief in Christ goes to the heart of faith. The law cannot be negated or else Jesus Christ would be negated as well because they are One. Sacrifice for sin, and atonement are all established by faith in God, and all faith in God points directly to Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's own arm who brought salvation.
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23
One must also keep in mind that physical circumcision wasn't introduced via the law at Sinai. It was a sign of the covenant with Abraham. The law introduces the circumcision of the heart, (twice in Deuteronomy, and once in Jeremiah) same as the circumcision of the new covenant through Christ.
Satan desired the law to be messed up during the time of Christ on this earth. Because that didn't work for him, today he is doing all he can to make it void. In either case the end result is the same for this "upside-down" adversarial persuasion.
If a person would diligently observe all the law by their own strength, they would still never be made righteous, because it is God who makes righteous, not the act of observance itself. All observance of the law teachings (Torah) must be based on faith. Our observance is according to the will of God, and is done in a manner that is pleasing to Him.
The law given via Moses reveals our Messiah, and Messiah is the fullness of the law in its pure form. It's the Torah teachings that establish the criteria for Messiah's righteousness. Therefore, it is impossible to be justified by the law without faith in Christ Jesus. Belief in Christ goes to the heart of faith. The law cannot be negated or else Jesus Christ would be negated as well because they are One. Sacrifice for sin, and atonement are all established by faith in God, and all faith in God points directly to Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's own arm who brought salvation.
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31
God does not divide between a spiritual law and a non-spiritual law.
That is a device of man.
The law of Moses are all the commands given to Moses, including the Ten Commandments, which were the basis of the Sinaitic Covenant.
The Mosaic regulations were abolished on the cross, while the Ten Commandment were
set aside as the means of justification and salvation.
That is correct, the Decalogue was not given before Moses.
Obedience to the Decalogue is accomplished in obedience to the new covenant law of Christ
(Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13: 8, 9, 10; 1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:8)).
Our purpose here is to examine the period from Creation to Moses.[/quote]
There was no Mosaic law, including the Decalogue, from Adam to Moses.
And where there is no law, sin is not counted against anyone.
Yet everyone died during that time, and death is the result of sin.
So what was the sin that caused their death?
It was the sin of Adam by which all men were made sinners (Ro 5:18).
That is a device of man.
The law of Moses are all the commands given to Moses, including the Ten Commandments, which were the basis of the Sinaitic Covenant.
The Mosaic regulations were abolished on the cross, while the Ten Commandment were
set aside as the means of justification and salvation.
That is correct, the Decalogue was not given before Moses.
Obedience to the Decalogue is accomplished in obedience to the new covenant law of Christ
(Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13: 8, 9, 10; 1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:8)).
Our purpose here is to examine the period from Creation to Moses.[/quote]
There was no Mosaic law, including the Decalogue, from Adam to Moses.
And where there is no law, sin is not counted against anyone.
Yet everyone died during that time, and death is the result of sin.
So what was the sin that caused their death?
It was the sin of Adam by which all men were made sinners (Ro 5:18).
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