Where does restitution fit into repent in Christ?

Viligant_Warrior · Jun 25, 2015

The Hebrew word that your translation renders "breaking faith" and that mine renders "acting unfaithfully" is l[m (ma'al), and though it is a heinous act for a believer in the Jewish or Christian nations to commit, it is limited to a single act, in this case, any one of the "sins of mankind." Those are essentially the criminal law. Ironically, that is the Hebrew word hattx (chatta'ah) and, besides "sin" and sometimes "sinful behavior," it also refers to the sin offering. In other words, restitution.

The sin offering was the offering made to God for sin. The monetary or property reimbursement prescribed for the victim was the restitution made to him or his family. This sentence is an interesting construct, one that doesn't come through in the English translation. It equates both the sin and the restitution for it, and commands that both God and the victim must be satisfied.

Miri · Jun 25, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

The Hebrew word that your translation renders "breaking faith" and that mine renders "acting unfaithfully" is l[m (ma'al), and though it is a heinous act for a believer in the Jewish or Christian nations to commit, it is limited to a single act, in this case, any one of the "sins of mankind." Those are essentially the criminal law. Ironically, that is the Hebrew word hattx (chatta'ah) and, besides "sin" and sometimes "sinful behavior," it also refers to the sin offering. In other words, restitution.

The sin offering was the offering made to God for sin. The monetary or property reimbursement prescribed for the victim was the restitution made to him or his family. This sentence is an interesting construct, one that doesn't come through in the English translation. It equates both the sin and the restitution for it, and commands that both God and the victim must be satisfied.

Interesting, especially even more so when you consider God required a sin offering then
provided it in Jesus. (Like Abraham and Isaac/ram etc) but I am digressing a little.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

purgedconscience said:

I lost a job once from a lie about me. Granted, I got it straightened out with the owner so the owner was the guy who put in the good word for me for a job two jobs down the road, so God really did use that for my good like he promised in Romans 8, but lies cost. I never could find a job easily, so that was seven months where our finances suffered because I couldn't find any job, and all because someone lied about me. It cost more than just losing that job.

As Miri said, it really isn't for folks who don't belong to God. The people who lied about me weren't believers, so no grudge to hold. (No grudge to hold since it worked out in the long run too. I was a minimum wage telemarketer, and that job I landed, thanks to the good word of that owner, was a bookkeeping job! Yippee! Much better money and I got to think while working. lol) But what if it cost that much and I'm the one who did the sinning?

This really isn't about how others should act to me. It's about how I should be. If I hurt someone, I owe them more than I took.

Willie-T · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

No you won't. LOL You can't resist.

And, my post had not the first thing to do with Nerf Herding.... It was a reflection on our desire to find some way to take care of anything we might consider a "sin" on our own... without depending upon Jesus.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

purgedconscience said:

Good question. Here's what I'm thinking:

If you misjudge me and then share the same misjudgments with others and they believe the same, then where is any discernment on their parts? Wouldn't they be equally as guilty in God's eyes for believing the lie as the one who initially told them the lie?

I've been lied about numerous times in my short life. I said somewhere on this forum the other day that dead people don't respond to negative things that are said about them or done to them. Could that be the problem? That people haven't truly been crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism and raised up into a newness of life where it truly is no longer they who live, but Christ Who lives in them? Personally, I believe that this is precisely the problem. I'm learning that when somebody maligns me and I take it personally that there is something yet terribly wrong within me that needs to be fixed. We all need to come to the place where when we are maligned we don't take it personally and learn to pray for our enemies and false accusers even as Christ taught us to. I'm not into holding grudges or keeping a journal of what others owe me. As a Christian, I'm indebted to all men to lay my life down for them as Christ laid His life down for me. It's all a matter of where we're fixing our gazes. Is it firmly upon ourselves? In many cases, it is. When we get to the place where our gazes are fixed upon Christ and others, offenses will go out the window.

Now I'm up to three cents.

haha.

By the way, how did you know that I am a scruffy looking nerf herder? Was this by Divine revelation or are you having me followed?

haha.

Oh, forgot to answer your last question. What? You don't look like Harrison Ford in 1976? lol

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

oldhermit said:

I really have to go shopping now, but...umm, huh?

Jason0047 · Jun 25, 2015

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Willie-T · Jun 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

So...... since this was the afternoon meal at Zack's house... and this was after dinner and conversation... (getting late)..... and Jesus said, "THIS DAY"...... it seems Zack's household found Salvation way before he had a chance to go through all his tax books, and arrange restitution.

Thus, it seems Salvation was given before restitution was paid......... making it independent of Zack's desire to pay back money.

(Just trying to see if I got the order of things correctly.)

psychomom · Jun 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

please stop doing that. the entire passage, if you please:

He entered Jericho and was passing through.
And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich. Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.
So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way.

When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.”

And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly.
When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”
Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.”
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Lk 19:1-10)

did Jesus say, today salvation has come to this house because Zaccheus was very moralistic and repaid those whom he had defrauded?
looks a bit like this:

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. (Rom 4:13-17)

God is always, always, always the First Cause in salvation.

SeaBass · Jun 25, 2015

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87311-repentance-vs-eternal-security.html

Repent metanoeō :

Thayer's Lexicon:

--To change one's mind,

--Used esp. of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent on obtaining God's pardon

--To change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

--Conduct worthy of a heart change and abhorring sin

Greek Lexicon :: G3341 (KJV)

Matthew 3:8"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

Acts 26:20"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Luke 13:3,5"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".

Can a Christian commit a sin such as theft, keep the stolen property yet maintain his salvation? Or must he do "works meet for repentance" by making reparation by returning the stolen property to its rightful owner or else be lost?

Miri · Jun 25, 2015

psychomom said:

please stop doing that. the entire passage, if you please:

He entered Jericho and was passing through.
And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich. Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.
So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way.

When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.”

And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly.
When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”
Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.”
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Lk 19:1-10)

did Jesus say, today salvation has come to this house because Zaccheus was very moralistic and repaid those whom he had defrauded?
looks a bit like this:

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. (Rom 4:13-17)

God is always, always, always the First Cause in salvation.

I agree.

Actions (restitution) are a result of an inner heart change - not the other way around.

The spiritual penny dropped and monetary restitution was made.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

Oh cool! I didn't know "break faith" was one word, nor did I know it encompassed so much in one word. Now I'll have to restudy it again with that in mind. I bet it makes more sense how it connects now. (And I suspect a lot of that sense is in what Miri said.)

Thanks.

(Next time I go through the Bible, I'm going to have to use Strong as my Dead Guy. lol)

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Miri said:

That's not digressing. That's part of what I'm trying to figure out. There's God's part and then there is our response. I'm trying to see both, but I keep getting stuck on the Me part.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

psychomom said:

please stop doing that. the entire passage, if you please:

He entered Jericho and was passing through.
And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich. Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.
So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way.

When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.”

And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly.
When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”
Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.”
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Lk 19:1-10)

did Jesus say, today salvation has come to this house because Zaccheus was very moralistic and repaid those whom he had defrauded?
looks a bit like this:

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. (Rom 4:13-17)

God is always, always, always the First Cause in salvation.

(Quietly slinking away after realizing all this time I thought that was Matthew's -- as in the Gospel of Matthew the tax collector -- story. Memory like a sieve, I tell you. lol)

mwc68 · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

Instead of judging others, how's this one work for you? I tell everyone else that you are a "stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf herder." I realize I'm wrong, come to you, and repent.

Is that enough? Lots of people still have you pegged as a nerf herder. I've defamed you. Shouldn't there be restitution even if that sin was nailed up with Jesus? (Ha! Finally a sin that doesn't have to be sent to Jesus. Feels good. lol)

This is what I'm saying. Sometimes sins aren't fixed merely by reconciling. And they aren't fix just by repenting and laying it at Christ's feet. Restitution is important, even now. At least, that's what I'm thinking.

I'm not trying to promote anything. All I wish to say is that the Sacrament of reconciliation(confession) has answered these questions for me

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

mwc68 said:

Sadly, that teaches penance, not repent.

mwc68 · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

We make an Act of Contrition during confession. Sorry, that is repentance. Penance is afterword. I really wish ya'll could at least get the things you hate right.

Miri · Jun 25, 2015

mwc68 said:

Just curious but who do you make penance to and how does that fit in with the
theme of the thread?

I've never been to a Catholic Church, my only impression is from the TV with a priest
telling someone to say 3 Hail Marys etc. Genuinely curious as to if this is correct or if it
goes deeper in making restitution to the actual person who has been wronged.

mwc68 · Jun 25, 2015

Miri said:

The conversation between the confessor and confessee is confidential. In my experience, I have been told to make restitution. That is the problem with judging things you only think you know about. (I'm not saying you personally )

Willie-T · Jun 25, 2015

mwc68 said:

Ya kind of missed some of that by a mile..... but it was funny, anyway.

Where does restitution fit into repent in Christ?

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