Christians vs Jews?

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Blain

I have heard some Christians bash against the jews saying they are not saved and such, I don't know a lot about the Jews but umm Jesus was a Jew so....

No Jew can be saved, just as no man can be saved. apart from through full belief in Jesus Christ. Obviously some Jews were saved, because they believed in Jesus Christ. But those who remain unbelievers will be eternally lost unless they come to Jesus Christ to be their Savior.

Jesus of course was not saved. He died to save others.

 

[valiant]

I think ezekial 37 shows it quite well.

Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled at the return from Exile when Israel 'came back from the dead'

as well as lev 26

Leviticus 36 was fulfilled in the return from Exile and after.

and romans 11 (where paul says all Israel will be saved, ie all isreal will repent)

The all Israel in Rom 11 is the all Israel depicted by the olive tree. It includes Messiah believing Jews, believing Gentiles who are grafted in to the olive tree, and any Jews who later believe in the Messiah.

 

[Mac4Yuma]

Replacement theology. This idea is new to me, or way of describing it.

There is a simple spiritual issue here. The apostles regarded the Jewish faith as over, once the curtain in the temple was torn in two. This is God saying the whole temple system is no more, the shadow has passed and the new has arrived.

There was a period of 40 years, two generations where the nation of Israel could have repented and followed Jesus.
After this time the temple was destroyed and Judaism changed.

For the promises of Jesus to be fulfilled in the Apostles

Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:28

For the promises given by God to be eternal, they must be fulfilled in His people. The prostitute in Jericho who housed the spies was saved is a classic example. Israel were the believing people, born into a covenant which is the fore shadow of the covenant of faith in Jesus, into which we are born spiritually through the Holy Spirit. This was the starting of the Kingdom of God on earth.

When Jesus said,
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Matt 16:28


There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Matt 17:2-3


The church at pentecost was the coming of His kingdom on earth.
Everything before this was a fore-shadow. Israel were the flesh trying to fulfill Gods law and failing except those who believed by faith in the love and nature of who God was as King David did.

Just a few words to be sure someone does not think the dead are not dead:

you posted:
There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Matt 17:2-3

I would have added something about the fact that Moses and Elijah are dead and it was a vision like in other stories of visions.

(ABP+) AndG2532 behold,G2400 there appearedG3708 to
themG1473 MosesG* andG2532 ElijahG* withG3326 him,G1473
conversing together.G4814
John 3:13: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came
down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus The
Christ] who is in heaven."
The verse makes two significant points. First, these are
Jesus The Christ's own words and if anyone had gone to
heaven Jesus would know about it.
Second John recorded these words many years after Jesus
died and ascended to heaven still affirming that no one
other than Jesus had gone to heaven.

Mac.

 

[Alextor]

All things are possible with God.... Who was it that said that?

 

[Pumicestone]

I can't wait. This should be good.


And three "Likes" ..... for THAT ?!

I'm sure this (above) made no sense to anyone. Sorry.
A whole bunch of other posts appeared between this one and the one to which I was responding.

Originally Posted by bondservant

In the book of Daniel God gave them the exact day messiah would enter Jerusalem but they heeded it not.


Pumicestone:
May I have little more info on that "exact day" allegedly prophesied in Daniel please, Bondy ?
Chapter will do.

A particular day in relation to Passover, I can understand - but the actual year ?

You would be aware, I'm sure, that there are some who say that Yeshua arranged to enter on that day "in order that prophecy might be fulfilled" ?

The exact day is given in Daniel when the math is done of the 70th week.

Will post the complete when I get the chance, nothing is by chance with God. (Three "Likes")

I can't wait. This should be good.


And three "Likes" ..... for THAT ?!

 

[RickyZ]

All things are possible with God.... Who was it that said that?

It's possible that was God...

 

[Pumicestone]

Look, this whole thing about Daniel predicting Yeshua's entry into Jerusalem is no big deal.
It was just a passing query really.
Which I may not pursue beyond this post.

Bondy reckoned that
"In the book of Daniel God gave them the exact day messiah would enter Jerusalem ... " .
I asked him where in Daniel that occurred. He said he would provide details later.
He has posted since but has not addressed the question.



Eternally-Grateful tried to help out (for which I am grateful) but I'm not sure I understand

daniel 9. 69 weeks from the time the order is given to restore the city (not temple) of jerusalem. after which he would be cut off (killed)

Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey literally 69 weeks of years from the date the command was given, and 7 days later he was killed, as prophesied.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look, this whole thing about Daniel predicting Yeshua's entry into Jerusalem is no big deal.
It was just a passing query really.
Which I will not pursue beyond this post.

Bondy reckoned that
"In the book of Daniel God gave them the exact day messiah would enter Jerusalem ... " .
I asked him where in Daniel that occurred. He said he would provide details later.
He has posted since but has not addressed the question.



Eternally Grateful tried to help out but I'm afraid I don't understand a word of it

1. You have to understand, daniel prophesied 70 weeks to make an end for the people of daniel.

Daniel 9 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

You add them both together you have 69 weeks

The OT prophesied the messiah will enter jerusalem as king, it also says how he will enter, on a donkey. so the end of the 69th week whoul occure on this date, which if we look at the math, it does.

It then says this

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

ie, after the 69th week, messiah will get cut off (literally killed) which occured on the cross a week (7 days) after messiah entered jerusalem.

 

[SolidGround]

"No big deal".
Really? It's the kind of proof that saves many theology students out of the clutches of skepticism.
The math is outstandingly accurate, which is why so many skeptics are required to pretend that Daniel was written in the 1st-2nd century ad.

 

[Yonah]

Ya I have heard that as well but as for an actual relationship with God how do the jews fair I wonder?

I personally know many Jews who not only believe on our Savior but talk to Him everyday, I find their knowledge of scripture both impressive and informative, the have a greater degree of understanding of Salvation and sanctification and are leaned enough to know the difference, the scripture states that veil will be lifted and it being done right now...

 

[Pumicestone]

I did not intend to pursue this Daniel stuff - but Bondy reckoned that the "exact day" was predicted and EG has valiantly tried to explain the whole thing to me, so ....

Sorry, I've since read half a dozen translations of Dan 9 (and 8 and 10 just for context),
I've visited scores of websites and just get more confused.

For the life of me, I cant see how the exact year was foretold - let alone the exact day.


April 7, AD 30 ? April 3, AD 33 ? Some other time ?

 

[bondservant]

Hey saints I said I would be back with info on the 70 weeks of Daniel it is to long to post and I would most likely mess it up lol. So if you want to check out my friends website on the issue go to Koinonia House - The Ministry of Chuck and Nancy Missler articles/ 2004/552 sorry I know it's late .

 

[Pumicestone]

No worries, Bondy. Thanks for the link.
I'll check it out.
But to be honest, I'm not optimistic that I will find any clarity.

So far, I have encountered an absolute plethora of opinions about this chapter - within mainstream Christianity.
But then, when one gets to the JWs and the Adventists and Mormons and so on, the opinions just multiply.
And then, there are the claims by the Skeptics and others ................

Naturally, they all claim with absolute certainty that they have "the Truth".

 

[prove-all]

Chosen for what?

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee
to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you
from other people, that ye should be mine

 

[prove-all]

An example of what?

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory, belong sole to Israel


The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”


Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, [Ask me of things to come ]
concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. Ecclesiastes 1:11

 

[PeterJens]

I find fundamental models that underpin interpretation important.

Gods nature has not changed. Our problem stems from Adams desire to gain knowledge of good and evil independent of the Lord which God said would lead to death. The reason for Adams sin was a distrust in the Lord which we inherit from birth.

The law and ceremony was given as the conditions for approaching God, the need for sacrifice, the need to change within, the need to obey but without the ability.

Jesus came as the cornerstone, the last stone to make the whole picture. The picture is we are stubborn, lost, alone, empty, close to being ok, but poisoned by slavery to sin. We need to be born spiritually within, we need to learn how to live from the heart, we need to be transformed over time into the very likeness of Jesus.

Now every prophecy, whether spoken about Israel, or a location, or heaven spoke of this reality, whether in symbols or straight out. There is no other picture or variation that will be fulfilled, the picture of Israel is fulfilled by Jesus.

You can construct other views and ideas, but this is the gospel, it is what Jesus preached, so if you believe Jesus that is the bias you need to take over all the prophesies. The people of God are believers, the Kingdom on earth, which is now Israel expanded. The Jews who believe Moses are the shadow that has been met by the reality.

 

[valiant]

"No big deal".
Really? It's the kind of proof that saves many theology students out of the clutches of skepticism.
The math is outstandingly accurate, which is why so many skeptics are required to pretend that Daniel was written in the 1st-2nd century ad.

well of course if you believe such travesty of the truth no doubt it helps you. But its interesting that neither Jesus nor the Apostles knew of such an exact correlation between Daniel 9 and Jesus. It is of course found in the usual way by the manipulation of the evidence. but many Christians find no problem with that.

'the word that went forth' in fact was the 'word going forth' described in Dan 9.22 which occurred around 538 BC. But why let the context spoil a good story?

I have moved among scholars and I am not aware of a single scholar who dates Daniel in 2nd century AD. They may be dim but even sceptics acknowledge that Daniel is quoted in Matthew and Mark.

 

[valiant]

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory, belong sole to Israel

I guess someone forgot to tell Paul. (Ephe 2.12-14, 19; Rom 11.12-24) and Peter (1 Peter 2.9)

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”

which they did. I'm one of them.

 

[prove-all]

I guess someone forgot to tell Paul. (Ephe 2.12-14, 19; Rom 11.12-24) and Peter (1 Peter 2.9)



which they did. I'm one of them.

- this says the promises, adoption and glory and the covents are Israels
so Paul forgot to tell himself this? we should believe the bible.

Romans 9:4
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints,
and of the household of God

-being aliens and strangers, now part of Israels covents with the saints.


and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”

-so are you a physical decendent from Israels grandkids?
this is not talking about spiritual jews, but physical Israel decendents.

Rom 11.12-24

-gentials are grafted in to Israel, be one law for all.
you are grafted in and fellow heir to the promises and covents of Israel.
but the covents still belong to them, thats what Paul said in the n.t..

1 Peter 2.9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

-yes you become a jew inward, heir to the promises of Isreal,
the mystery was the gentials could join any time, conform to them.

 

[prove-all]

Jesus of course was not saved. .

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