Render unto Cesar.........

[GuessWho]

This doesn't dismiss the fact that God still views unwarranted hatred as murder. IOW, in His eyes, there's no difference between somebody physically killing someone and somebody harboring unwarranted hatred for another in their heart and neither individual will inherit eternal life apart from genuine repentance.

But in our eyes there is a difference. I can not see the hatred in a person's heart (only God can). But I can see that a man killed another man.

Society can not punish people for not being enough loving towards others. But society must punish mindless crimes that provoke disorder and sufferance. I am not saying that it must be necessarily death penalty. But I can understand those who are for it.

Also, I see hatred as affecting the person who hates, not necessarily the person who is the object of one's hatred.
Maybe someone hates you very much and you are not even aware of it. How does his hatred take away your freedom and your life?

And also, what if the victim of a murderer was for death penalty? Can we forgive the murderer in behalf of the victim, or the victim's family?

If you wrong me, than it is christian to forgive you. But if you wrong BarlyGurl how can I forgive you in her place?

 

[BarlyGurl]

Very thoughtful thoughts GuessWho

 

[AceMichaels]

But in our eyes there is a difference. I can not see the hatred in a person's heart (only God can). But I can see that a man killed another man.

Society can not punish people for not being enough loving towards others. But society must punish mindless crimes that provoke disorder and sufferance. I am not saying that it must be necessarily death penalty. But I can understand those who are for it.

Also, I see hatred as affecting the person who hates, not necessarily the person who is the object of one's hatred.
Maybe someone hates you very much and you are not even aware of it. How does his hatred take away your freedom and your life?

And also, what if the victim of a murderer was for death penalty? Can we forgive the murderer in behalf of the victim, or the victim's family?

If you wrong me, than it is christian to forgive you. But if you wrong BarlyGurl how can I forgive you in her place?

Sorry for butting in. Where does it say you have the right to take revenge on her behalf? God knows who are His and who causes them to suffer. Are not the martyred saints crying out now for revenge? Revenge is for God

 

[BarlyGurl]

Sorry for butting in. Where does it say you have the right to take revenge on her behalf? God knows who are His and who causes them to suffer. Are not the martyred saints crying out now for revenge? Revenge is for God

Hello Ace, So I am not entirely finished in tis thread, but I did want to address you specifically. After the "heated" discussion last nite I did review your comments. Taking them AS WRITTEN... It appears I was hasty in interpreting your question as "heckling", to my marginal defense I will point out that you had moments before made negative comments toward crossnote, a radio personality and your father... I had already read those... so when you popped in with the "repentance question" I had already formed a perspective about YOU which "muddied" my interpretation of the intent of your question.... SOOOOO

What I am saying is... that WAS unfair of me... and I do apologize and I wish that I had been quicker to notice you were actually ASKING and not "smarting off" as I wrongly concluded... because the conversation could have gone differently. K?

You are FREE to have a conscience about CP, but please do not FORMULATE A DOCTERINE to support and defend it... it is a matter of personal conviction for personal choice... CP IS sanctioned by God for social order... so while I can "see" your perspective as a "choice" and allow it to you... I will contend fervently against anyone formulating a DOCTERINE which does not harmonize with the full counsel of God. Truce

 

[RickyZ]

So, a not so hypothetical situation:

A killer is spared the death penalty and instead reaches their parole date, and is released only to kill again. If you were one who voted against the death penalty for him, how would you feel about the fact the they killed again?

 

[GuessWho]

Sorry for butting in. Where does it say you have the right to take revenge on her behalf?

But maybe for me is not revenge, but justice. No, who am I kidding? I would be very resentful towards someone who killed my beloved ones.
The murderer doesn't destroy only the life of the victim, but the life of the family's victim too. And I feel it would be revenge and hatred if the death penalty would consist in reiterating the same horrors that the victim experienced before her death. But the legal system gives the murderer a lethal injection that puts him to sleep...definitively. The victim didn't have part of the same "Socratic" death.

God knows who are His and who causes them to suffer. Are not the martyred saints crying out now for revenge? Revenge is for God

I know about a martyr who prayed God (just like Jesus Christ did on the cross) to forgive those who were stoning him.

 

[Galahad]

Hello Ace, So I am not entirely finished in tis thread, but I did want to address you specifically. After the "heated" discussion last nite I did review your comments. Taking them AS WRITTEN... It appears I was hasty in interpreting your question as "heckling", to my marginal defense I will point out that you had moments before made negative comments toward crossnote, a radio personality and your father... I had already read those... so when you popped in with the "repentance question" I had already formed a perspective about YOU which "muddied" my interpretation of the intent of your question.... SOOOOO

What I am saying is... that WAS unfair of me... and I do apologize and I wish that I had been quicker to notice you were actually ASKING and not "smarting off" as I wrongly concluded... because the conversation could have gone differently. K?

You are FREE to have a conscience about CP, but please do not FORMULATE A DOCTERINE to support and defend it... it is a matter of personal conviction for personal choice... CP IS sanctioned by God for social order... so while I can "see" your perspective as a "choice" and allow it to you... I will contend fervently against anyone formulating a DOCTERINE which does not harmonize with the full counsel of God. Truce

You use the word “formulate” to characterize the hermeneutic Ace applied. And you saw the conclusions drawn by Ace weren’t a hole in one. Not in the least. More like, in the bunker.
Thank you Barlygurl, you saw the tactic, and the error, and then you exposed it. Though Ace rambled on about everything under the sun, you pinpointed and narrowed it all down to “formulate a doctrine.” Excellent!

Ace, if you're reading this...knock it off! Your method is a formulation. A terrible brew.

 

[AceMichaels]

Hello Ace, So I am not entirely finished in tis thread, but I did want to address you specifically. After the "heated" discussion last nite I did review your comments. Taking them AS WRITTEN... It appears I was hasty in interpreting your question as "heckling", to my marginal defense I will point out that you had moments before made negative comments toward crossnote, a radio personality and your father... I had already read those... so when you popped in with the "repentance question" I had already formed a perspective about YOU which "muddied" my interpretation of the intent of your question.... SOOOOO

What I am saying is... that WAS unfair of me... and I do apologize and I wish that I had been quicker to notice you were actually ASKING and not "smarting off" as I wrongly concluded... because the conversation could have gone differently. K?

You are FREE to have a conscience about CP, but please do not FORMULATE A DOCTERINE to support and defend it... it is a matter of personal conviction for personal choice... CP IS sanctioned by God for social order... so while I can "see" your perspective as a "choice" and allow it to you... I will contend fervently against anyone formulating a DOCTERINE which does not harmonize with the full counsel of God. Truce

I acccept your apology and I apologize as well. I jumped the gun also. Most of my family are either republican or ultra conservative and very opinionated. I apologize for assuming you were this way.

I'm not trying to formulate doctrine. I simply oppose the death penalty and maybe its wrong to use scripture to support my opinion

 

[JesusistheChrist]

But in our eyes there is a difference.

Perhaps, but there shouldn't be.

I can not see the hatred in a person's heart (only God can). But I can see that a man killed another man.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful or contentious, but I'd honestly have to disagree with you here. I've seen hatred manifest in people a multitude of times in my life that was definitely on the same level as murder in that the one manifesting the same wished the other party to be dead. In fact (and I'm not joking), my own wife hates me in that manner, so I don't need to look outside of my own home (if one can call it that) to see the same.

Society can not punish people for not being enough loving towards others. But society must punish mindless crimes that provoke disorder and sufferance. I am not saying that it must be necessarily death penalty. But I can understand those who are for it.

Is it possible that people aren't seeing a distinction between "society" and "the church" which ought to exist? IOW, is there a difference between the way that "society" judges and the way that "the church" judges and if not, then why not? Show me anywhere in the New Testament where saints are instructed to kill anybody. Again, Christians are supposed to be following Christ. He set the standard, in my estimation, as to who is worthy to administer "capital punishment" when He said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" (John 8:7). As I mentioned earlier, there is only One Person Who meets that criteria and He was present that day and He didn't condemn the woman whom the law required be put to death, but instead He told her to "go and sin no more". Do Jesus' words matter anymore? Have they ever?

Also, I see hatred as affecting the person who hates, not necessarily the person who is the object of one's hatred.
Maybe someone hates you very much and you are not even aware of it. How does his hatred take away your freedom and your life?

I could answer that question, but I won't. Again, I wouldn't have to look outside of my home for an example.

And also, what if the victim of a murderer was for death penalty? Can we forgive the murderer in behalf of the victim, or the victim's family?

Again, I believe that this question is predicated upon a failure to properly distinguish between "society" and "the church". If the victim's family calls for vengeance, then must the Christian do the same?

If you wrong me, than it is christian to forgive you. But if you wrong BarlyGurl how can I forgive you in her place?

Why'd you have to mention BarlyGurl? We're friends (I think), but she might not be too thrilled with me at the moment. Anyhow, to answer your question, you're only accountable for your own actions. If I wrong BarlyGurl (and live to tell about it...lol...jk), then the choice is hers and hers alone as to whether or not to forgive. This conversation started in relation to jurors and the like. If I was called as a juror, then I'd personally never opt for "capital punishment". I'd seek to share the gospel with the perpetrator if possible and if not possible, then I'd pray for God to send somebody to them to share the gospel with them. If God wanted the person killed, then I'm sure that some inmate would be willing to do His bidding, but I'm not into taking anybody's life. Ultimately, it's a matter of conscience, I suppose, and we'll all give an account for our own personal decisions. I don't know what else to say...

 

[GuessWho]

No. Feeling hatred towards someone is not the same with killing someone.
Cain felt hatred towards Abel. A feeling that he could not control. What comes next, the murder of Abel, is totally something that he could have chosen not to do. You can not program yourself to feel or not feel something. But you can rebuke those feelings and repent for them. Once you killed someone, you can no longer un-kill him. The person is dead.

I am not advocating for death penalty. But I feel that death penalty has the purpose to scare the barbarian people from killing others. If love is not the reason to keep someone away from killing, than fear of death penalty will.

Also, I am sure that the families of the victims would be more than grateful if the murderer, instead of killing the victim, would call her "fool". I know I would. And I know you would be, too.

 

[AceMichaels]

Perhaps, but there shouldn't be.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful or contentious, but I'd honestly have to disagree with you here. I've seen hatred manifest in people a multitude of times in my life that was definitely on the same level as murder in that the one manifesting the same wished the other party to be dead. In fact (and I'm not joking), my own wife hates me in that manner, so I don't need to look outside of my own home (if one can call it that) to see the same.

Is it possible that people aren't seeing a distinction between "society" and "the church" which ought to exist? IOW, is there a difference between the way that "society" judges and the way that "the church" judges and if not, then why not? Show me anywhere in the New Testament where saints are instructed to kill anybody. Again, Christians are supposed to be following Christ. He set the standard, in my estimation, as to who is worthy to administer "capital punishment" when He said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" (John 8:7). As I mentioned earlier, there is only One Person Who meets that criteria and He was present that day and He didn't condemn the woman whom the law required be put to death, but instead He told her to "go and sin no more". Do Jesus' words matter anymore? Have they ever?

I could answer that question, but I won't. Again, I wouldn't have to look outside of my home for an example.

Again, I believe that this question is predicated upon a failure to properly distinguish between "society" and "the church". If the victim's family calls for vengeance, then must the Christian do the same?

Why'd you have to mention BarlyGurl? We're friends (I think), but she might not be too thrilled with me at the moment. Anyhow, to answer your question, you're only accountable for your own actions. If I wrong BarlyGurl (and live to tell about it...lol...jk), then the choice is hers and hers alone as to whether or not to forgive. This conversation started in relation to jurors and the like. If I was called as a juror, then I'd personally never opt for "capital punishment". I'd seek to share the gospel with the perpetrator if possible and if not possible, then I'd pray for God to send somebody to them to share the gospel with them. If God wanted the person killed, then I'm sure that some inmate would be willing to do His bidding, but I'm not into taking anybody's life. Ultimately, it's a matter of conscience, I suppose, and we'll all give an account for our own personal decisions. I don't know what else to say...

I think you said what needed to be said! I am pro life from the unborn to the condemned. Life is very precious !!!

 

[JesusistheChrist]

No. Feeling hatred towards someone is not the same with killing someone.
Cain felt hatred towards Abel. A feeling that he could not control. What comes next, the murder of Abel, is totally something that he could have chosen not to do. You can not program yourself to feel or not feel something. But you can rebuke those feelings and repent for them. Once you killed someone, you can no longer un-kill him. The person is dead.

I am not advocating for death penalty. But I feel that death penalty has the purpose to scare the barbarian people from killing others. If love is not the reason to keep someone away from killing, than fear of death penalty will.

Also, I am sure that the families of the victims would be more than grateful if the murderer, instead of killing the victim, would call her "fool". I know I would. And I know you would be, too.

You can say that they're not the same for as long as you'd like to, but they're still the same in God's eyes and those are the only eyes which will matter in the end.

 

[AceMichaels]

You use the word “formulate” to characterize the hermeneutic Ace applied. And you saw the conclusions drawn by Ace weren’t a hole in one. Not in the least. More like, in the bunker.
Thank you Barlygurl, you saw the tactic, and the error, and then you exposed it. Though Ace rambled on about everything under the sun, you pinpointed and narrowed it all down to “formulate a doctrine.” Excellent!

Ace, if you're reading this...knock it off! Your method is a formulation. A terrible brew.

I really have no idea what you are talking about here. You are crediting me for something I did completely by accident. I'm not that good of a bible scholar. I don't even know what hermenuitic is.

 

[Galahad]

You can say that they're not the same for as long as you'd like to, but they're still the same in God's eyes and those are the only eyes which will matter in the end.

Can you explain their sameness? I know hate and murder are sins. But how else are they the same?

Hopefully you will respond before you carry out the instruction in verses 29 and 30! Of course there is verse 28 that might help you with your response. You've got a lot of plucking, casting, cutting, and revising to do today. And not just with your response.

 

[Galahad]

I really have no idea what you are talking about here. You are crediting me for something I did completely by accident. I'm not that good of a bible scholar. I don't even know what hermenuitic is.

Ace, sorry to disappointment you, but you aren't the person I responded to with that post. That was for Barlygurl. Okay. Now get out of the bunker.

 

[AceMichaels]

Ace, sorry to disappointment you, but you aren't the person I responded to with that post. That was for Barlygurl. Okay. Now get out of the bunker.

Just wanted to know what I'm accused of and I think Ill stay in bunker. Have you ever heard of PM?

 

[Galahad]

Just wanted to know what I'm accused of and I think Ill stay in bunker. Have you ever heard of PM?

Yes, I've heard of PM. Why? Is your wife asking you to go to the store to buy her some feminine products. I feel sorry for you. Wear a hat.

 

[AceMichaels]

Yes, I've heard of PM. Why? Is your wife asking you to go to the store to buy her some feminine products. I feel sorry for you. Wear a hat.

I don't think you've heard of PM (private message) but if I had a wife I would let her know of your concern!

 

[Galahad]

I don't think you've heard of PM (private message) but if I had a wife I would let her know of your concern!

Oh, that PM. Yes, I've heard of that. Not a big user of private message. Is there something you wanted to tell me? Just use PM, public message. You can. But you can also use PM, private message. You choose. Your choice.

 

[AceMichaels]

Oh, that PM. Yes, I've heard of that. Not a big user of private message. Is there something you wanted to tell me? Just use PM, public message. You can. But you can also use PM, private message. You choose. Your choice.

There isn't that better? An issue cleared up. Before you mentioned my make believe wife's make believe PMS, i wanted to mention you could pm Barleygurl if it was just for her. Since you accused me of something (still not sure) i want to know. Like you said its a public message