The Bible Has Been Translated Too Many Times to be Trusted?

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williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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And JimmieD hit it on the nail when he says, "...it's not really 4000+ grammatical errors. It's really 4000+ textual variants... ." However, I would add that there are many more than 4,000 variants. In fact, the number of textual variants can be multiplied a hundred times more than the figure given by RJB for a total of 400,000. That does not mean, however, that we cannot trust the text of the NT, and knowledge of textual criticism will reveal why that is.

Simply saying that something is not original to the text because it seems contradictory will not suffice -- anyone then could argue that a problematic text is not original based solely on the presumption that it seems "contradictory." Your adhered method is grounded in personal bias... it's simply a game of cherry picking -- "this text seems to suit my personal theological motive, but over here is a problematic text which seems to counteract my theological perspective so we should disregard it as a forgery."

I do not have the time now, but I will try to work in a more detailed response tomorrow evening which will entail a more thorough examination of the things involved in textual criticism.
 
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I understand the point I think you're attempting to make here, but just so I'm clear: is your argument that it wasn't originally written by Matthew or that it wasn't actually uttered by Jesus himself?
I don't believe Jesus said it. I believe it is an insert from a later date. It was placed in there by someone who understood the meaning of the cross.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I don't believe Jesus said it. I believe it is an insert from a later date. It was placed in there by someone who understood the meaning of the cross.
I think the point, however, is that there is no documentary evidence for your position. We simply know of no copy of Matthew (or Mark, for that matter) without that text. Indeed, using exactly the same approach, people have argued that large chunks of the surrounding text EXCEPT for that saying are inauthentic.

Conjectural emendation is all well and good when there is no good evidence otherwise. But when the actual textual tradition is clear, there's little basis to adjudicate the text based purely on the much more subjective grounds of 'flow' or 'perceived context'. The same standard could not be applied to, for instance, the Gospel of Thomas as an ancient text, purely because the text is a series of sayings rather than a cohesive narrative. If we cannot approach all texts in a similar manner with a particular method, I think that's strong grounds for being distrustful of that method.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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I don't believe Jesus said it. I believe it is an insert from a later date. It was placed in there by someone who understood the meaning of the cross.
Do you think it was written by the author of Matthew or inserted at some later time? The evidence seems to be that it was original to the text, and if you believe textual critics such as Bart Ehrman, it was part of "Q" and thus even earlier than the gospels themselves. We should also note that this phrase is also found in Matt 10:8, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, 14:27 and we find similar reverence and reference to the crucifixion in Paul's writings.

There hidden assumption in your comment as to why Jesus would not have said this, and that is that Jesus wouldn't have referenced the significance of his own death before it actually occurred. You're assuming Jesus wouldn't have known and referenced the future. Your argument, that supposedly was revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, is a probabilistic one, and I'm not sure why the holy spirit would be appealing to probability.

And I'm not convinced that saying, "pick up your cross and follow me" would have been so foreign to his hearers. They absolutely were familiar with Roman crucifixions as the Romans used them explicitly to execute rebels, which would have been considered martyrs to the Jews. Telling someone to "pick up your cross and follow me" could have been understood by his initial hearers to be saying to follow Jesus all the way to martyrdom. Now it seems you would have to argue that Jesus never intended to be killed. But his will be difficult to argue since Jesus' own actions indicate that he intended to confront the authorities in Jerusalem, and it takes no special knowledge to see that such a confrontation would end up like all other confrontations like that ended up - in the Romans nailing rebels to a cross.

So I'm not convinced that his initial hearers wouldn't have known what he was talking about had he said "take up your cross and follow me." It seems more than plausible to me that they could have. If the holy spirit is the one telling you what you've told me, then it seems the holy spirit lacks a little historical imagination and relevant information.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
One beef I have:

I acknowledge the KJV isn't the re-inspired Word of God.. that some churches similar to mine actually do believe..but then it is a common notion among todays christians to not read it because of something along the lines of 'its archaic'... 'the old English is too hard to read'

Now some of these christians probably studied Shakespeare at High School or College. They most likely took great attention to it and appreciated it.. and would never rip it up or stop reading it.

The KJV is THE SAME KIND OF ENGLISH AS SHAKESPEARE!!!

It's beautiful.. majestic.. classical English.

Once you get used to it.. it's very concise.. clear and easy to read.

So to all who would go to the point of poo pooing the KJV because it is old English.. you wouldn't do that with other classical literature your English teacher gave you at High School and College!

:)
Shakespeare is archaic and too hard to read! Worse yet, iambic pentameter! (I also hate Catcher on the Rye, Of Mice and Men, The Glass Menagerie, Gone with the Wind, Tolkien is too long, Dickens is too long, and A Clockwork Orange. Just because it's a classic doesn't mean I can't still hate it. lol)

But, for the record, KJV and Shakespeare aren't Old English. They're modern English. I think it's time to come up with a moderner English.

So, ha! I would, and did, the same thing to my high school and college teachers because much of my classes in college were reading old stuff. lol

(Just thought you'd feel better with an honest poo-poo, but no hard feelings.)
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
I know what you mean, brother. I'm mildly dyslexic and I didn't have trouble reading and understanding Shakespeare for lack of trying. I was actually an A student in all other areas of English. Just not Shakespeare. Maths was where my dyslexia really showed up - haha!
Dyscalculia then? (My brother has both -- dyslexia and dyscalculia.)
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
Every Bible I've ever read, regardless of translation, deems Jesus Christ Lord and Savior.

What's the problem?
Only a problem is one was written by A.A. Milne. In which case, that might have been Piglet. lol

(Kidding. Just kidding.)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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For may people of my generation the language of the KJV is very natural due to its constant use in church services while growing up... When we read the KJV we cannot help a certain natural fondness of the style. After all, almost all of us first heard the Gospel in this format. Now people who only read Hebrew, very few, would balk at this preference thinking it not the original, and perhaps even not valid. This is going to occur with any version of the kWord; that is to say, kpeople will balk at what ever version some folks read.

Please do not discount the old timers for liking the KJV. This old timer has read at least a dozen versions, including other language versions, and I love them all, but I will always have a special place in my heart for teh KJV. This is not a sin.

God bless all in Jesus Christ........
 
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Tintin

Guest
Dyscalculia then? (My brother has both -- dyslexia and dyscalculia.)
Wow, thanks. I've never heard of this before. It seems I probably do have dyscalculia.

Wikipedia says:

Dyscalculia involves frequent difficulties with everyday arithmetic tasks like the following:


  • Difficulty reading analog clocks (YES, in my childhood)
  • Difficulty stating which of two numbers is larger (NO)
  • Inability to comprehend financial planning or budgeting, sometimes even at a basic level; for example, estimating the cost of the items in a shopping basket or balancing a checkbook (NO)
  • Difficulty with multiplication-tables, and subtraction-tables, addition tables, division tables, mental arithmetic, etc.
    (YES to mental arithmetic and long multiplication/division type problems)
  • Difficulty with conceptualizing time and judging the passing of time. May be chronically late or early
    (YES, but only if I'm in the zone)
  • Problems with differentiating between left and right (NO)
  • Inability to visualize mentally (Strangely enough, at times, YES)
  • Difficulty reading musical notation (YES)
  • Difficulty with choreographed dance steps (Oh, gosh, YES)
  • Difficulty working backwards in time, (e.g. What time to leave if needing to be somewhere at 'X' time) (NO)
  • Difficulty comprehending things relating to occurrences in different time zones
    (YES, a little)
  • Difficulty navigating or mentally "turning" the map to face the current direction rather than the common North=Top usage (YES)
  • Having particular difficulty mentally estimating the measurement of an object or distance (e.g., whether something is 10 or 20 feet (3 or 6 meters) away). (NO)
  • Inability to grasp and remember mathematical concepts, rules, formulae, and sequences
    (It depends, but YES)
  • Inability to concentrate on mentally intensive tasks (NO, unless it's Maths-related)
  • Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. May substitute names beginning with same letter. (NO)
 
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A

atwhatcost

Guest
Wow, thanks. I've never heard of this before. It seems I probably do have dyscalculia.

Wikipedia says:

Dyscalculia involves frequent difficulties with everyday arithmetic tasks like the following:


  • Difficulty reading analog clocks (YES, in my childhood)
  • Difficulty stating which of two numbers is larger (NO)
  • Inability to comprehend financial planning or budgeting, sometimes even at a basic level; for example, estimating the cost of the items in a shopping basket or balancing a checkbook (NO)
  • Difficulty with multiplication-tables, and subtraction-tables, addition tables, division tables, mental arithmetic, etc.
    (YES to mental arithmetic and long multiplication/division type problems)
  • Difficulty with conceptualizing time and judging the passing of time. May be chronically late or early
    (YES, but only if I'm in the zone)
  • Problems with differentiating between left and right (NO)
  • Inability to visualize mentally (Strangely enough, at times, YES)
  • Difficulty reading musical notation (YES)
  • Difficulty with choreographed dance steps (Oh, gosh, YES)
  • Difficulty working backwards in time, (e.g. What time to leave if needing to be somewhere at 'X' time) (NO)
  • Difficulty comprehending things relating to occurrences in different time zones
    (YES, a little)
  • Difficulty navigating or mentally "turning" the map to face the current direction rather than the common North=Top usage (YES)
  • Having particular difficulty mentally estimating the measurement of an object or distance (e.g., whether something is 10 or 20 feet (3 or 6 meters) away). (NO)
  • Inability to grasp and remember mathematical concepts, rules, formulae, and sequences
    (It depends, but YES)
  • Inability to concentrate on mentally intensive tasks (NO, unless it's Maths-related)
  • Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. May substitute names beginning with same letter. (NO)
Don't worry about musical notes. They make as much sense as Shakespeare. lol

Yeah, my brother is 60. There was no diagnosis for either dyslexia or discalculia when we were kids, but one of my earlier memories was Mom working with him to memorize the times table. It seems like every time I was coming down the steps she'd be sing-songing "Car 54 Where Are You? (A TV show back then.) I instantly know 9 X 6.

He was never dumb. He could nurse sick or injured reptiles back to health with the same skill as a vet, but he spent four times as long as the rest of us getting homework and studying for tests.

We have a cousin his age who had the same problems. That cousin was in his 7th year of college before he was diagnosed. A year later he could finally graduate. That's when we found out it's a family gene that usually hits guys, but it's carried by the gals too. Brother suspected then. That cousin's sister (also cousin) married a guy with dyslexia, and then she spent the next two decades teaching hubby and their three sons hours and hours per night. The boys had straight A's because of that help. Also helped that her brother married a teacher and because they had a boy with it too, the teacher started a Montessouri school where all the dyslexic kids in the family went.

And that cousin that worked with her boys also did my brother's bookkeeping, since he had his own business as a mason, while she worked full time in the family real estate business.

About 15 years ago, my brother finally got diagnosed. By then it was just to confirm what he had known for decades.
 
E

Elysian

Guest
For may people of my generation the language of the KJV is very natural due to its constant use in church services while growing up... When we read the KJV we cannot help a certain natural fondness of the style. After all, almost all of us first heard the Gospel in this format. Now people who only read Hebrew, very few, would balk at this preference thinking it not the original, and perhaps even not valid. This is going to occur with any version of the kWord; that is to say, kpeople will balk at what ever version some folks read.

Please do not discount the old timers for liking the KJV. This old timer has read at least a dozen versions, including other language versions, and I love them all, but I will always have a special place in my heart for teh KJV. This is not a sin.

God bless all in Jesus Christ........

Stick with your KJV-'' where there is a king there is power'' and if you wish to know everything about your beloved KJV bible and why it is God's inspired word in the English language and the other so called bibles are not visit KING JAMES BIBLE DEFENDED.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
Stick with your KJV-'' where there is a king there is power'' and if you wish to know everything about your beloved KJV bible and why it is God's inspired word in the English language and the other so called bibles are not visit KING JAMES BIBLE DEFENDED.
Is this an advertisement? Trying to drive clicks to your website?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,691
13,135
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(( in re: Matt 16:24 , Matt 10:8, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, 14:27 ))

I don't believe Jesus said it. I believe it is an insert from a later date. It was placed in there by someone who understood the meaning of the cross.

your basis for rejecting this is that you think Christ didn't understand the meaning of the cross?


The concept of,"Take up a cross and follow me", has no relevance to the hearers at that point in time.

ya think Jesus was the first person ever to be crucified? no one in Judea had any familiarity with Rome's pet public execution method? that had been used since at least 500 BC?

No body was thinking about crosses as an act of humility. No one was thinking they had to imitate Christ by carrying a cross, which was considered a curse.

being made a public curse & spectacle doesn't connote humiliation?
does it occur to you that the reason Christ says things that we're not previously thinking about is in order to teach us?

"As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.
He said this to signify what kind of death He was about to die.

(John 12:32-33)

Russ, no prophet of God edits scripture in order to bring it into line with their private interpretation.


 
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williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
495
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We should note that this phrase is also found in Matt 10:8, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, 14:27 and we find similar reverence and reference to the crucifixion in Paul's writings. So I'm not sure why you would consider this "not-scriptural" when the attestation in the text is about as solid as it gets. It's clearly original to the text according to the evidence at hand.
Allow me to state first off, I do agree with you completely. However, it could potentially be argued that a scribe inserted the phraseology, “let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Matthew 16.24, ESV) in order to harmonize the text with passages such as Mark 8.33-34 (though, not with much validity considering external data/manuscript traditions).

While these other scriptural references that you cite do attest to the inclusion of the phrase in the NT, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it supports the inclusion here at Matthew 16.24.

Alternatively, however, it should be of little or no surprise if we found this phraseology in the Book of Matthew considering that it is largely acknowledged that Matthew used Mark as his primary source. Thus, the fact that this phrase is found in Matthew 16.23-24 is confirmed from his source material (Mark 8.33-34).
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
495
122
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I don't believe Jesus said it. I believe it is an insert from a later date. It was placed in there by someone who understood the meaning of the cross.
I think instead of me taking an unnecessary amount of time to discuss with you the “inner-workings” of textual criticism, and criticize things like you’ve said here, that perhaps I should refer you to a piece I wrote several years ago under a different alias (GraceBeUntoYou). Though the piece concerns a different text altogether, I think it’ll be enlightening, and could help direct you... hopefully, alongside what JimmieD and Nick have posted, it'll show you where we are coming from, and show you why textual criticism is so important.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58883-jude-5-jesus-who-saved-people-out-land-egypt-afterward-destroyed.html

*I had posted this over on another thread, but the topic has since shifted for the worse, so here I present, as promised to cfultz3, this little article I put together concerning the textual issue of Jude 5.

In a previous post I introduced a reading of Jude 5 which some of you may, or may not be aware of. It reads as follows, “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” The purpose of this post is to observe the variant data surrounding Jude 5, to discuss which variant is most probable, and to unveil a bit of history surrounding early corruption of texts which attest to the pre-existence of Christ.

For those not familiar with textual criticism, it is the science which attempts to determine the original reading of a particular text. There are particular guidelines that textual critics use to determine the authenticity of a reading or a text. On pp. 275-276 of The Text of the New Testament, Kurt and Barbara Aland list these “Twelve Basic Rules for Textual Criticism.” Of those twelve, I list six (which are in no way listed in numeric order) that pertain directly to the text under discussion.

(1) Only the reading which best satisfies the requirements of both external and internal criteria can be original.

(2) Criticism of the text must always begin from the evidence of the manuscript tradition and only afterward turn to a consideration of internal criteria.

(3) Internal criteria (the context of the passage, its style and vocabulary, the theological environment of the author, etc.) can never be the sole basis for a critical decision, especially in opposition to external evidence.

(4) Furthermore, manuscripts should be weighed, not counted, and the peculiar traits of each manuscript should be duly considered. However important the early papyri, or a particular uncial, or a minuscule may be, there is no single manuscript or group of manuscripts that can be followed mechanically, even though certain combinations of witnesses may deserve a greater degree of confidence than others. Rather, decisions in textual criticism must be worked out afresh, passage by passage (the local principle).

(5) The reconstruction of a stemma of readings for each variant (the genealogical principle) is an extremely important device, because the reading which can most easily explain the derivation of the other forms is itself most likely the original.

(6) There is truth in the maxim: lectio difficilior lectio potior ("the more difficult reading is the more probable reading"). But this principle must not be taken too mechanically, with the most difficult reading (lectio difficilima) adopted as original simply because of its degree of difficulty.

Though there are several variants at Jude 5, there are four readings which can pose a great significance, theologically: (a) “Jesus,” (b) “Lord,” (c) “God Christ,” and (d) “God.” I have placed the term “once” in brackets, however, some witnesses which are listed do omit the term. The textual support for each variant includes,

(a) Jesus, who [once] saved – A B 33 81 88 322 323 424[SUP]c [/SUP]655 915 1241 1739 1881 2298 2344 cop[SUP]sa, bo [/SUP]eth vg pc Origen Cyril[SUP]Alex [/SUP]Jerome

(b) the Lord, who [once] saved – א C Ψ 945 1175 436 945 1505 1611 2138 1067 1175 1292 1409 1735 1844 syr[SUP]ph[/SUP]

(c) God Christ, who [once] saved – p[SUP]72
[/SUP]
(d) God, who [once] saved - C[SUP]2[/SUP] syr[SUP]p, h [/SUP]Clement[SUP]Alex[/SUP]

For the purpose of this study I will not be focusing attention on the variant readings, “God,” or “God Christ” due to insufficient support. Although, these variants are rather intriguing, they are not well established. The other two variants (“Jesus,” and “Lord”) have much broader geographic distribution, and therefore I will direct my full attention to those two readings.

In order to determine which of these two variants is the authentic, we will follow the guidelines as laid out above.

By a quick gloss of the textual evidence above, one may come to conclude that the textual evidence is somewhat equal in terms of manuscript support. However, this conclusion would be too hasty, and doesn’t seem to observe a number of factors, including manuscript traditions, geographic distribution, transmission through history, nor the historical context.

Brief Synopsis of the External Data


Both variants have solid geographic distribution, and are attested for in the three primary groupings we call “text-types”: Alexandrian, Byzantine, and Western. However, of these, only a couple mss which support “Lord” date back as early as the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] and 5[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries (א C), most of these mss are dated to the 9[SUP]th[/SUP]-11[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries. Numerous Greek, and versional witnesses which date back to early 4[SUP]th[/SUP] and 5[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries attest to “Jesus,” including A B cop[SUP]sa, bo [/SUP]vg eth pc (on this point, it should be noted that because miniscule 33 and A have much in common they very well may have a common ancestor). This strand of data seems to indicate that during the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] and the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries that “Jesus” was the wider attested, and more prominent reading. Patristic resources certainly do seem to favor this point (Cyril[SUP]Alex[/SUP] Jerome). Further, while B was compiled during the early 4[SUP]th[/SUP] c., because it has been found to agree very closely with even earlier papyri (i.e., p[SUP]75[/SUP] p[SUP]72[/SUP]) which are dated to the beginning of the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] century, this demonstrates by recourse to a postulated earlier exemplar from which these earlier papyri and B descend. “In English,” so-to-speak, this means that Vaticanus (B) is representative of an even earlier archetype, perhaps 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] century, but no later than early 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] c. (Origen[SUP]1739mg[/SUP]). Justin Martyr (AD 100-ca. 160) may have had Jude 5 in mind while interacting with Trypho the Jew in Chapter CXX of Dialogue with Trypho,

“He speaks therefore in the passage relating to Judah: ‘A prince shall not fail from Judah, nor a ruler from his thighs, till that which is laid up for him come; and He shall be the expectation of the nations.’ And it is plain that this was spoken not of Judah, but of Christ. For all we out of all nations do expect not Judah, but Jesus, who led your fathers out of Egypt.”

Though it may be difficult to determine whether or not Justin had Jude 5 in mind, there can be little doubt that he believed Christ to be present in the times of the exodus.

In light of the age, early prominence, and historical transmission of the text, “Jesus” certainly has the edge in terms of external evidence.



The Historical Context & the Origin of Variants

Scholarship has postulated divergent theories over the origin of these various variants that occur here at Jude 5. Some believe that a scribe may have made an error when copying (“error of the eye/pen”) the nomina sacra (IC [“Jesus”] vs. KC [“Lord”] vs. OC [“God”]), and, therefore, is the primary cause for the various readings.

Others, such as Richard Bauckham suggest the idea of a Joshua-Jesus typology by way of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] century scribal corruption, and is therefore the reason why many mss read “Jesus” rather than “Lord.”

However, neither of these options really seem to carry much weight. It is difficult to see how Bauckham’s theory could lead to a modification from “Lord” to “Jesus,” particularly when the text further speaks of one, “…who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, He has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.” Joshua neither rescued the people from Egypt, nor destroyed them in the wilderness, and most certainly did not bind the fallen angels.

On closer examination, the variants appear to be, rather than copyist errors, intentional changes. The scribal emendation of C[SUP]2[/SUP] (“God”) seems to indicate that a scribe even took issue with Ephraemi’s primary reading of Jude 5, “Lord” (also see 424[SUP]c[/SUP]). Often times Alexandrian scribes replaced the highly specific terms “Jesus” or “Christ” with the less specific terms “Lord” and “God” because in the context they seem to be anachronistic. If the original had been “Lord,” it seems unlikely that a scribe would have willingly created a difficulty by substituting the more specific “Jesus.” Moreover, even if not motivated by a tendency to overcorrect, a scribe might be likely to assimilate the word “Jesus” to “Lord” in conformity with OT passages.

Whether this be the case here with Jude 5 is really uncertain. I am of the opinion that at a very early period in the Christian era, perhaps 2[SUP]nd [/SUP]or 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] century, there seems to have been theological motive that could have promulgated these variant readings.

The Early Church Fathers frequently speak of the corruption of Scripture by unorthodox figures of the past. In Eusebius’ Historia Ecclesiastica (Book V), Artemon, Asclepiades, Hermophilus, and Theodotus are charged with Biblical corruption on a grand scale, denying both, the Divinity of Christ, as well as His pre-existence. I quote at length, Book V, from Eusebius’ Historia Ecclesiastica,

In a laborious work by one of these writers against the heresy of Artemon, which Paul of Samosata attempted to revive again in our day, there is an account appropriate to the history which we are now examining.

For he criticises, as a late innovation, the above-mentioned heresy which teaches that the Saviour was a mere man, because they were attempting to magnify it as ancient. Having given in his work many other arguments in refutation of their blasphemous falsehood, he adds the following words:

For they say that all the early teachers and the apostles received and taught what they now declare, and that the truth of the Gospel was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter, but that from his successor, Zephyrinus, the truth had been corrupted.

And what they say might be plausible, if first of all the Divine Scriptures did not contradict them. And there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote in behalf of the truth against the heathen, and against the heresies which existed in their day. I refer to Justin and Miltiades and Tatian and Clement and many others, in all of whose works Christ is spoken of as God.

For who does not know the works of Irenæus and of Melito and of others which teach that Christ is God and man? And how many psalms and hymns, written by the faithful brethren from the beginning, celebrate Christ the Word of God, speaking of him as Divine.

How then since the opinion held by the Church has been preached for so many years, can its preaching have been delayed as they affirm, until the times of Victor? And how is it that they are not ashamed to speak thus falsely of Victor, knowing well that he cut off from communion Theodotus, the cobbler, the leader and father of this God-denying apostasy, and the first to declare that Christ is mere man? For if Victor agreed with their opinions, as their slander affirms, how came he to cast out Theodotus, the inventor of this heresy?

So much in regard to Victor. His bishopric lasted ten years, and Zephyrinus was appointed his successor about the ninth year of the reign of Severus. The author of the above-mentioned book, concerning the founder of this heresy, narrates another event which occurred in the time of Zephyrinus, using these words:

I will remind many of the brethren of a fact which took place in our time, which, had it happened in Sodom, might, I think, have proved a warning to them. There was a certain confessor, Natalius, not long ago, but in our own day.

This man was deceived at one time by Asclepiodotus and another Theodotus, a money-changer. Both of them were disciples of Theodotus, the cobbler, who, as I have said, was the first person excommunicated by Victor, bishop at that time, on account of this sentiment, or rather senselessness.

Natalius was persuaded by them to allow himself to be chosen bishop of this heresy with a salary, to be paid by them, of one hundred and fifty denarii a month.

When he had thus connected himself with them, he was warned oftentimes by the Lord through visions. For the compassionate God and our Lord Jesus Christ was not willing that a witness of his own sufferings, being cast out of the Church, should perish.

But as he paid little regard to the visions, because he was ensnared by the first position among them and by that shameful covetousness which destroys a great many, he was scourged by holy angels, and punished severely through the entire night. Thereupon having risen in the morning, he put on sackcloth and covered himself with ashes, and with great haste and tears he fell down before Zephyrinus, the bishop, rolling at the feet not only of the clergy, but also of the laity; and he moved with his tears the compassionate Church of the merciful Christ. And though he used much supplication, and showed the welts of the stripes which he had received, yet scarcely was he taken back into communion.

We will add from the same writer some other extracts concerning them, which run as follows:

They have treated the Divine Scriptures recklessly and without fear. They have set aside the rule of ancient faith; and Christ they have not known. They do not endeavor to learn what the Divine Scriptures declare, but strive laboriously after any form of syllogism which may be devised to sustain their impiety. And if any one brings before them a passage of Divine Scripture, they see whether a conjunctive or disjunctive form of syllogism can be made from it.

And as being of the earth and speaking of the earth, and as ignorant of him who comes from above, they forsake the holy writings of God to devote themselves to geometry. Euclid is laboriously measured by some of them; and Aristotle and Theophrastus are admired; and Galen, perhaps, by some is even worshipped.

But that those who use the arts of unbelievers for their heretical opinions and adulterate the simple faith of the Divine Scriptures by the craft of the godless, are far from the faith, what need is there to say? Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them.

That I am not speaking falsely of them in this matter, whoever wishes may learn. For if any one will collect their respective copies, and compare them one with another, he will find that they differ greatly.

Those of Asclepiades, for example, do not agree with those of Theodotus. And many of these can be obtained, because their disciples have assiduously written the corrections, as they call them, that is the corruptions, of each of them. Again, those of Hermophilus do not agree with these, and those of Apollonides are not consistent with themselves. For you can compare those prepared by them at an earlier date with those which they corrupted later, and you will find them widely different.

But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs? For they cannot deny the commission of the crime, since the copies have been written by their own hands. For they did not receive such Scriptures from their instructors, nor can they produce any copies from which they were transcribed.

But some of them have not thought it worth while to corrupt them, but simply deny the law and the prophets, and thus through their lawless and impious teaching under pretense of grace, have sunk to the lowest depths of perdition.

Let this suffice for these things.

In Simon J. Gathercole's The Pre-existent Son: Recovering the Christologies of Matthew, Mark, and Luke (pg. 39), he mentions that Origen's written work known as the Stromateis, tells of people in his day tampering with pre-existence texts. Gathercole also mentions an anonymous workknown as The Little Labyrinth which provides evidence of altering of such passages by some of those who are mentioned here in Eusebius' Historia Ecclesiastica: Aclepiodotus, Theodotus, Hermophilus, and Apollonius. We can perhaps see this at work in Jude 5 (“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe”), as well as 1 Corinthians 10.9 (“We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents”). Thus, it is easy to see how “Jesus” could have given rise to the other readings which we have, and is more difficult to argue that the change would have gone the other way (especially when an orthodox scribe could have potentially made many intentional changes elsewhere).

 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


Scriptures are clear. Men can teach men and women. Women can teach women. Women are not to teach or to usurp authority over men. This is what the Scriptures plainly teach, leave it to the last days generation of men and women to CHANGE what the Scriptures clearly teach because the Scriptures does not line up with the thinking of this generation.

Change the way you think to line up with Scriptures. DO not Change the Scriptures to line up with your own belief. Woe to those who interpret that which does not need any interpreting.

^i^ responding to post #93

Ok! I get it! Women are inferior to men
You do error greatly if this is what you actually think and believe, in this case i am hoping you are being sarcastic.
and not equal in Christ.
All are equal in Christ, for it is written we are ONE with Him. If then we are ONE with Him, we are equal with Him. We become as He is. Men and women alike are equal in Christ
They are subservient slaves and will never amount to anything more than their gender,
Who is telling you all this? i hope you are not implying that i have said anything remotely close to anything that you are now saying here, because i have not. Tell me did Jesus or any Apostle use sarcasm to edify others? Or mockery to edify or build up others?
and can never receive direction from the Holy Spirit because they are loathsome creatures that God would not speak too.
i am quite clear in what i teach, God speaks to whomever God wants to speak to. Please reread what i said above, i have said nothing of the sort these things that you are now saying.
And Paul that "last generation" lair, saying there is neither male nor female in Christ, what was he thinking.
He was right, in Christ there is neither male nor female. What then? Do you now think there is now no wife or no husband? What then. a husband is no longer considered a male, because the Apostle Paul said their is neither male nor female? What? Does that mean there are no more males? there are no more females? IN CHRIST, there is neither male or female, Jew or Greek, young or old, healthy or sick. You do error in thinking because the Apostle Paul said that about males and females, that the order that God has set up the family has now been done away with. The order remains. What then? the instructions for the wife no longer apply because the Apostle Paul said there is neither male nor female in Christ. Why then are there instructions? You do error in that thinking. All i said above is what the Word of God plainly says. Women are to teach women, as does the Scriptures teach. Scriptures teach that women are not to usurp authority over the man, this is not negated, or made void, because YOU misinterpret what the Apostle Paul said concerning no more males or females in Christ.

You assume, that i am saying that women should be slaves, or subservient, both of which i have never stated or even implied. i go to work every day, my Boss tells me what to do, and i go do it. Does that mean i am his slave? NO. Does that mean he is better than me? NO. Does that mean he is more important than me? NO. My Boss has authority over me to tell me what to do. The way God set it up, is for the Husband to be the Head of the wife. That is NOT saying she is to be his slave, or subservient. She is equal to him, just as i am equal with my Boss. But leave it to this generation for the men to play the woman's role, and the women to take on the men's role. Who wears the pants in this generation, the men or the women? Is it not True the women in this generation have all the authority and the men just shrug and say OK, and do as they are told by their wives? Do you think God is pleased with the role reversal that has happened in America, altogether contrary to the Word of God. No wander Divorce is so high in the country of America. Women are EQUAL to men, yeah right, they have altogether took the pants from the men, and the men are subservient to their wives. NOT ALL though.
Thanks for straightening me out. Much appreciated!
Brother, it is not i that has straightened you out, but if you believe the Word of God, it is the Word of God that has straightened you out, if indeed you believe the Word of God and what it says, or do you believe the word of men which teach contrary to the Word of God?
Now I have some things to tell my wife. Or do I?????
i am no judge on such matters, if the Holy Spirit of God is convicting you to confess to your wife certain things ( such as viewing porn or what have you) then a person should most certain tell their wife and not keep it hid from her.

Are Women EQUAL with men, Click HERE for an article backed up by Scriptures.


^i^ responding to post # 152
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


Scriptures are clear. Men can teach men and women. Women can teach women. Women are not to teach or to usurp authority over men. This is what the Scriptures plainly teach, leave it to the last days generation of men and women to CHANGE what the Scriptures clearly teach because the Scriptures does not line up with the thinking of this generation.

Change the way you think to line up with Scriptures. DO not Change the Scriptures to line up with your own belief. Woe to those who interpret that which does not need any interpreting.

^i^ responding to post #93

With the greatest respect,there is a more accurate understanding of that particular scripture available otherwise we would not have the verse which says that in Christ there is no male or female.
The verse that says there is no male or female, DOES NOT negate other inspired by God verses. It does not make void other inspired by God verses in Scriptures.

If what you believe contradicts even ONE verse in Scriptures then what you believe is in error. Just because you misinterpret there in no male or female in Christ, does not make void the instructions the Word of God gives wives. Nor does it negate the instructions given to Husbands. Just because The Apostle Paul said there is no male or female, does that now mean there are NO MALES and there are NO FEMALES? No it does not, just because people grossly misinterpret what the Apostle Paul said concerning no male or female in Christ, does not CHANGE, VOID out, or NEGATE, all the verses which plainly teach what men and women can or can not do. A person does not know the TRUTH, unless EVERY verse lines up with ever other verse, fi they do not line up, then it is YOUR interpretation of the verses that are in error.

An example of that is practicing Homosexuals have plainly told me, that the Bible teaches to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. So they adamantly believe and hold on to that verse, all the while making void, negating all the other verses which teach it is wrong. Where do you draw the line?

How is this not hypocrisy? A person states there is no more male and female in Christ when they are discussing the roles of women and men, but then with the same mouth say it is evil and wicked for a male to marry a male, or a female to marry a female. If then there is no more male or female then two women getting married should be OK, according to that same logic. Or are you a hypocrite and only use the statement the Apostle Paul made concerning there is no male or female in Christ, as long as it benefits you, and fits into your own belief.

Again, this is what God plainly told me in conversation one day "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is WRONG"

If the Holy Spirit wants to teach you something through a woman, are you saying you would not receive it?
Heavens no. Do you know what i like about Joyce Myers. Is she plainly teaches that her ministry and her teachings are to the women, to the wives, to the mothers, to the grandmothers. Have i learned stuff from Joyce Myers? Yes, i have. Can God choose a women to be a prophet? Sure, and has, and does. But i assure you, a female prophet of God will obey the Word of God, and she will NOT usurp authority over men, even though she has been given divine knowledge from God. Now If this female Prophet had a message to give, i would listen to it.

Scriptures plainly teach this, women are to teach women. Does that mean men can't listen to those women? No it does not mean that at all. That is why i like Joyce Myers, she teaches women, her teaching is towards the women, can men learn from her, sure, can men listen to her? sure. Does she usurp authority over men, or even her husband? NO she does not. (from what i do know about her).

The working of God is not about gender at all, as I see it.
This is True, However the working of God will NEVER contradict the Word of God, for the Word of God can't be broken and God does not lie EVER. So then even though the Working of God is not about gender at all, this does not negate the inspired by God Scriptures that ARE gender specific. You can't throw out verses out of the Scriptures because they do not fit into your own personal beliefs. You either believe EVERY verse of Scriptures, or you do not know the Truth. You can't say there are no more males and females in Christ, then turn around and say there ARE males and females when talking about Homosexuals getting married. Just because the Apostle Paul made that comment, does not negate all GENDER specific verses in Scriptures.

If I benefit from another's ministry I benefit through the power of the Holy Spirit, and it is He I want to listen for, and to, and learn from.
This is True. and does the Holy Ghost teach you to ignore gender specific verses because of what the Apostle Paul said? Does the Holy Spirit of God teach you to negate all gender specific verses because of the verse that says there are no more male and female in Christ? Is it not also written there is none that doeth Good, no not one. Does that now mean, Nobody can do good deeds, because the verse plainly says, there is none that doeth good?

Again, i can't stress it enough. "If what you believe is the Truth, contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then YOUR belief is in error" Therefore change YOUR belief to line up with all of Scriptures, Do NOT do what this wicked generation does, they will Change, alter, ignore, make void, negate, any verse that does not line up with their own belief. Nay, change your belief to match Scriptures, NOT change Scriptures to match your belief. You have been warned.

^i^ responding to post #153
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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Originally Posted by RussellJBenigno


Ok! I get it! Women are inferior to men and not equal in Christ. They are subservient slaves and will never amount to anything more than their gender, and can never receive direction from the Holy Spirit because they are loathsome creatures that God would not speak too. And Paul that "last generation" lair, saying there is neither male nor female in Christ, what was he thinking. Thanks for straightening me out. Much appreciated! Now I have some things to tell my wife. Or do I?????
Haha, just read this...amen.
Since when is sarcasm, and/or mocking something to say "Amen" about? Do you think that which was said to me, was in love? Was it said to edify? Was it said to build me up? Was it said to encourage me? Or was it said in sarcasm to mock me?

^i^ responding to post #154
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
The "Force" in Star Wars was a great example of the Holy Spirit in power. The Jedi were Righteous Warriors sent to keep peace. Believe it or not but the movie,"Astro Boy" was almost the Gospel told to a "T". If one pays attention many things will stir scripture. There is always a Savior in just about every movie story. It is built into us to know the things of God.
The Force is balancing good and evil. Yeesh! You really have no clue of the Bible at all, do you?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
I don't believe Jesus said it. I believe it is an insert from a later date. It was placed in there by someone who understood the meaning of the cross.
That certainly makes it clear why you take licences to make it up as you go along.