He became sin...???

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Oct 3, 2015
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#21
He was made to be sin, who knew no sin, so that we could be made righteous, who knew no righteousness.

ESV: "For our sake he (God the Father) made him to be sin (Christ as the Son of Man) who knew no sin (as the Son of God), so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

My understanding is that God the Father united the Divine life of Christ with our fallen life in the womb of Mary. In doing so Christ became what He was not by Divine right, that is, the Son of Man.

For 30 something years Christ, as the Son of Man, lived a perfect life of obedience to His Father's law. And on the cross our old life, that the Divinity of Christ assumed at the incarnation, died eternally upon the cross. So "in Christ" our old life was made obedient to the law of God and "in Christ" our old life died the justice that the law demands.

When we accept Christ we are therefore legally, not vicariously, justified by faith.


 
Sep 4, 2012
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#22
I think saying Christ became sin objectifies sin. However, a sin is not an object; it is an act of rebellion. Therefore, physical objects can't become past acts of rebellion. They can only become the entity that pays for the guilt incurred by those actions.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#23
I think saying Christ became sin objectifies sin. However, a sin is not an object; it is an act of rebellion. Therefore, physical objects can't become past acts of rebellion. They can only become the entity that pays for the guilt incurred by those actions.
That's the point ...that the scriptures describe "sin" as a noun and not always as a verb... clearly "sin" is being described as a spiritual force and not a act in this case.

We also see "sin" described as a noun in Romans 7 ...

Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#24



ESV: "For our sake he (God the Father) made him to be sin (Christ as the Son of Man) who knew no sin (as the Son of God), so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

My understanding is that God the Father united the Divine life of Christ with our fallen life in the womb of Mary. In doing so Christ became what He was not by Divine right, that is, the Son of Man.

For 30 something years Christ, as the Son of Man, lived a perfect life of obedience to His Father's law. And on the cross our old life, that the Divinity of Christ assumed at the incarnation, died eternally upon the cross. So "in Christ" our old life was made obedient to the law of God and "in Christ" our old life died the justice that the law demands.

When we accept Christ we are therefore legally, not vicariously, justified by faith.


Not sure you said that like you intended?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#25
That's true. Neither is it in any of the 94+ verses in the OT that I listed, yet that is the clear meaning. You make the call.
And they shall carry forth the calf whole without the camp, and they shall burn the calf as they burnt the former calf: it is the sin-offering of the congregation. Leviticus 4:21

Καὶ ἐξοίσουσι τὸν μόσχον ὅλον ἔξω τῆς παρεμβολῆς, καὶ κατακαύσουσι τὸν μόσχον, ὃν τρόπον κατέκαυσαν τὸν μόσχον τὸν πρότερον. ἁμαρτία συναγωγῆς ἐστιν. ​ Leviticus 4:21
There is no reason to think that Paul that Paul is using the word any different here than he did through out the other epistles ...in fact what sense would it make to point out that "he knew no sin" if the passage was talking about a sin offering? To me its in complete agreement with New Covenant truth to say He became sin..that we might be made righteous....when clearly "sin" is often used as a object noun in the New Testament.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#26
That's the point ...that the scriptures describe "sin" as a noun and not always as a verb... clearly "sin" is being described as a spiritual force and not a act in this case.

We also see "sin" described as a noun in Romans 7 ...

Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I don't think sin is ever described as a noun in the bible. Paul might have used language that makes it appear so, but a deeper look reveals that sin dwells in us through our minds. Thoughts are not objects. There is no such thing as an object called sin dwelling in my flesh. It is a disposition towards rebellious behavior based upon a corrupted nature.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#27
I don't think sin is ever described as a noun in the bible. Paul might have used language that makes it appear so, but a deeper look reveals that sin dwells in us through our minds. Thoughts are not objects. There is no such thing as an object called sin dwelling in my flesh. It is a disposition towards rebellious behavior based upon a corrupted nature.
Its clearly used as a noun...if it dwells that's means its a object.. a corrupted nature is a object...not a verb ..action

How can you deny what the scripture clearly is reading?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#28
Its no longer me that is doing it.... but sin that dwells in me...if that not a noun taking action...Im not sure we could have a better example?
 
K

Kefa54

Guest
#29
I guess it depends on the translator?


Expositor's Greek Testament
2 Corinthians 5:21. The very purpose of the Atonement was that men should turn from sin.—τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν κ.τ.λ.: Him who knew no sin (observe μὴ rather than οὐ, as it is not so much the bare fact of Christ’s sinlessness that is emphasised, as God’s knowledge of this fact, which rendered Christ a possible Mediator) He made to be sin on our behalf. Two points are especially deserving of attention here: (i.) That any man should be sinless (cf. Ecclesiastes 8:5) was an idea quite alien to Jewish thought and belief; and therefore the emphasis given to it by St. Paul, and the absolutely unqualified way in which it is laid down in a letter addressed to a community containing not only friends but foes who would eagerly fasten on any doubtful statement, show that it must have been regarded as axiomatic among Christians at the early date when this Epistle was written. The claim involved in the challenge of Christ, τίς ἐξ ὑμῶν ἐλέγχει με περὶ ἁμαρτίας (John 8:46), had never been disproved, and the Apostolic age held that He was χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας … ἀμίαντος, κεχωρισμένος ἀπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτωλῶν (Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 7:26), and that ἁμαρτία ἐν αὐτῷ οὐκ ἕστιν (1 John 3:5; cf. St. Peter’s application of Isaiah 53:9 at 1 Peter 2:22). That He was a moral Miracle was certainly part of the primitive Gospel, (ii.) The statement ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν is best understood if we recall the Jewish ritual on the Day of Atonement, when the priest was directed to “place” the sins of the people upon the head of the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:21). ἁμαρτία cannot be translated “sin-offering” (as at Leviticus 4:8; Leviticus 4:21; Leviticus 4:24; Leviticus 4:34; Leviticus 5:9-12), for it cannot have two different meanings in the same clause; and further it is contrasted with δικαιοσύνη, it means “sin” in the abstract. The penalties of sin were laid on Christ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν, “on our behalf,” and thus as the Representative of the world’s sin it becomes possible to predicate of Him the strange expression ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν (ποιέω being used here as at John 5:18; John 8:53; John 10:33). The nearest parallel in the N.T. is γενόμενος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν κατάρα (Galatians 3:13); cf. also Isaiah 53:6, Romans 8:3, 1 Peter 2:24.—ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα κ.τ.λ.: that we might become, sc., as we have become (note the force of the aorist), the righteousness of God in Him (cf. Jeremiah 23:6, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Php 3:9, and reff.). “Such we are in the sight of God the Father, as is the very Son of God Himself. Let it be counted folly or frenzy or fury or whatsoever. It is our wisdom and our comfort; we care for no knowledge in the world but this, that man hath sinned and God hath suffered; that God hath made Himself the sin of men, and that men are made the righteousness of God” (Hooker, Serm., ii., 6).


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.—The “for” is omitted in many of the best MSS., but there is clearly a sequence of thought such as it expresses. The Greek order of the words is more emphatic: Him that knew no sin He made sin for us. The words are, in the first instance, an assertion of the absolute sinlessness of Christ. All other men had an experience of its power, gained by yielding to it. He alone gained this experience by resisting it, and yet suffering its effects. None could “convict Him of sin” (John 8:46). The “Prince of this world had nothing in Him” (John 14:30). (Comp. Hebrews 7:26; 1Peter 2:22.) And then there comes what we may call the paradox of redemption. He, God, made the sinless One to be “sin.” The word cannot mean, as has been said sometimes, a “sin offering.” That meaning is foreign to the New Testament, and it is questionable whether it is found in the Old, Leviticus 5:9 being the nearest approach to it. The train of thought is that God dealt with Christ, not as though He were a sinner, like other men, but as though He were sin itself, absolutely identified with it. So, in Galatians 3:13, he speaks of Christ as made “a curse for us,” and in Romans 8:3 as “being made in the likeness of sinful flesh.” We have here, it is obvious, the germ of a mysterious thought, out of which forensic theories of the atonement, of various types, might be and have been developed. It is characteristic of St. Paul that he does not so develop it. Christ identified with man’s sin: mankind identified with Christ’s righteousness—that is the truth, simple and yet unfathomable, in which he is content to rest.


The word translated sin both times in 2 Corinthians 5:21 is the exact same Greek word.

He made the one who did not know sin to be sin on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

It would make no sense to say "He made the one who knew no sin offering to be a sin offering".

However, this same word is translated sin offering in the Septuagint in 94 places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers. So it does appear that this word can take on different shades of meaning depending on context. So based on that, I think in this case sin offering is probably the correct translation.

He made the one who did not know sin to be a sin offering on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21
 
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M

Mitspa

Guest
#30
The bronze serpent is this very picture...bronze represents judgment..of course the serpent is sin... we know this is a picture of Christ and His work upon the Cross.
 
K

Kefa54

Guest
#31
I looked at a few commentaries. Some say sin, some say sin offering. Interesting study.
I'm not going to let it rock my world...lol

Kefa
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#32
I looked at a few commentaries. Some say sin, some say sin offering. Interesting study.
I guess if you restrict the term "sin" to a verb..then I can see why some would have to change it...but sin offering makes no sense in context...why mention "who knew no sin" its just don't make sense unless Paul is saying He became sin (noun) ...the bronze serpent
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#33
Its clearly used as a noun...if it dwells that's means its a object.. a corrupted nature is a object...not a verb ..action

How can you deny what the scripture clearly is reading?
There is nothing material that is sin. Show me some object that is sin. Sin is a spiritual being, i.e., satan. He dwells in us through his spirit influencing our corrupted nature. The flesh is not sinful because of some substance called sin, but because it is naturally disposed towards sin due to injury and has been made unholy through works of sin.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#34
I guess if you restrict the term "sin" to a verb..then I can see why some would have to change it...but sin offering makes no sense in context...why mention "who knew no sin" its just don't make sense unless Paul is saying He became sin (noun) ...the bronze serpent
It makes perfect sense. The one who knew no sin was made to pay the price for sin by becoming a sin offering.
 
K

Kefa54

Guest
#35
Another explanation/commentary....



Easton's Bible Dictionary
(Hebrews hattath), the law of, is given in detail in Leviticus 4-6:13; 9:7-11, 22-24; 12:6-8; 15:2, 14, 25-30; 14:19, 31; Numbers 6:10-14. On the day of Atonement it was made with special solemnity (Leviticus 16:5, 11, 15). The blood was then carried into the holy of holies and sprinkled on the mercy-seat. Sin-offerings were also presented at the five annual festivals (Numbers 28, 29), and on the occasion of the consecration of the priests (Exodus 29:10-14, 36). As each individual, even the most private member of the congregation, as well as the congregation at large, and the high priest, was obliged, on being convicted by his conscience of any particular sin, to come with a sin-offering, we see thus impressively disclosed the need in which every sinner stands of the salvation of Christ, and the necessity of making application to it as often as the guilt of sin renews itself upon his conscience. This resort of faith to the perfect sacrifice of Christ is the one way that lies open for the sinner's attainment of pardon and restoration to peace. And then in the sacrifice itself there is the reality of that incomparable worth and preciousness which were so significantly represented in the sin-offering by the sacredness of its blood and the hallowed destination of its flesh. With reference to this the blood of Christ is called emphatically "the precious blood," and the blood that "cleanseth from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#36
There is nothing material that is sin. Show me some object that is sin. Sin is a spiritual being, i.e., satan. He dwells in us through his spirit influencing our corrupted nature. The flesh is not sinful because of some substance called sin, but because it is naturally disposed towards sin due to injury and has been made unholy through works of sin.
A spiritual being is an object and would be described as a noun...the devil is a spirit...God is a Spirit..we know they have action and effect ...

you have to deny the clear reading of the passage to believe as you do... I often agree with you...but your just wrong here :)

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This is clearly a spiritual force called "sin" that is in the flesh..clearly its is being used as a noun..not a verb
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#37
What did it look like if its so simple? Is "sin" a spiritual force?
why would I want to think that? Is there any means or reason I would think this?

Sin is sin. Jesus can not "redeem" sin unless he becomes sin (unless he takes on sins guilt)

It is a judicial declaration. I take the penalty which was supposed to go to these people. and I place it on the redeemer.

The redeemer pays the debt in full. The ones were were guilty of those crimes are set free. as if they had never done those sin (also known as justification)
 
K

Kefa54

Guest
#38
I am sort of focused on just what is a sin offering. How did the sin offering work.
I am not arguing here. I am just processing this in my brain...lol


Kefa
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#39
It makes perfect sense. The one who knew no sin was made to pay the price for sin by becoming a sin offering.
No it makes no sense to assume what is not in the scriptures...and then assume that the explanation is needed for a sin offering as being without sin...so folks are supposed to know that the word "sin" really means "sin offering" because they knew the Old Testament Greek...but they didn't know that a sin offering was without sin? This is what happens when folks leave the clear reading of scripture...they go into all manner of mans logic and error.
 
K

Kefa54

Guest
#40
Hold on now. Flip Wilson:"The Devil made me do it?"....I choose to sin in my flesh. Sin is a choice. I can't blame it on the devil.

Kefa