Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

I just wanted to say one quick thing about the "fruit of righteousness" in the passage you quoted. Notice it is the "fruit" not the "root". An orange tree does not become and orange tree when it brings forth an orange. It has always been an orange tree and the life in that orange tree from it's roots bring forth the life needed to produce what it already is.

Doing righteous acts does not make a person righteous. Good works are the fruit that comes from the righteousness that is already in us in Christ. It's simply a matter of "being" who you are now because of the finished work of Christ!

It is truly amazing grace!

Ok, maybe they can answer for you what to do with this passage...

Hebrews 12:5-11 (KJV)
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes. "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Our earthy fathers corrects us in our flesh - in the "seat of learning"..lol .. but our heavenly Father corrects us in our spirit with His Word!

Proverbs 13:24

He that spareth his rod hateth his son, but he that loveth him chasteneth him be times.

 

[crossnote]

I love this scripture! I thank God for it! It shows His love for us!

The "chastening " as the word used in Kings James language means child training. It is the exact same word used in 2 Tim. 3:16 where it says The Word of God ...is for instruction in righteousness. Instruction is "chastening". Jesus said the words I speak to you are spirit and life. The Lord "chastens" us with His word to our spirits. ( be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live. )

We are the righteousness of God in Christ. We do not become righteous by doing righteous acts. We do righteous acts because we are righteous! When we are doing something that will bring destruction either to ourselves or others - the Lord send His Word to "correct" us.

Now, religion has taught us that God relates to us in the New Covenant the same way He did in the Old Covenant but this is not true. Massive confusion comes to us sincere believers when we mix up the covenants Jesus calls it a " New Covenant " for a good reason.

Sometimes certain words bring with it connotations. For me with my religious background the term " bringing me out to the woodshed" brings with it the wrong thoughts concerning how God deals with destructive behavior.

Religion says that God brought this sickness on you or your car broke down because you didn't tithe...or any other religious nonsense that is like that. It does not display the true nature of our God.

Forgive us for not explaining the "connotations" that come with certain phrases which can cause confusion.

Our Father is a good, good Father! We love Him and trust Him!

Sure, God's chastisement, scourging,rebukes etc., are done for our good out of His great love for us and not out of vindictiveness.

The way some were speaking, it was if God would never do such a thing.

 

[KennethC]

[/B]
If only you accepted the penalty for sin had been removed from the Christian, we would be in tandem, but alas.

The penalty for repented of sin removed, yes we can agree then.

However Paul, Peter, John, and James all four showed we will still have to give account for what we do after conversion.

And Paul and Hebrews both multiple times shows that judgment and fiery indignation (lake of fire) awaits those who do not continue to obey the gospel but fall away to walk by the flesh/sinful ways or be carnally minded.

There is many examples in the Word of God that shows our walk in the faith has to match the faith in Jesus, or eternally life does not abide in us !!!

 

[crossnote]

The penalty for repented of sin removed, yes we can agree then.

However Paul, Peter, John, and James all four showed we will still have to give account for what we do after conversion.

And Paul and Hebrews both multiple times shows that judgment and fiery indignation (lake of fire) awaits those who do not continue to obey the gospel but fall away to walk by the flesh/sinful ways or be carnally minded.

There is many examples in the Word of God that shows our walk in the faith has to match the faith in Jesus, or eternally life does not abide in us !!!

The lake of fire is not for the regenerate Christian.

 

[james57]

When you do not follow after the Spirit, but rather the flesh, God does not come behind you with a big stick, threatening to beat you into submission with it. You suffer as a person by not following after the Holy Spirit, for you have been born again. You will have no rest, no peace as long as you take this course, you will not succeed in life, nor find any happiness, you will become miserable and downcast, and despondant. The longer it takes you to bow the knee, the more this will happen.
There is no licence to sin in grace, God is not stupid, he was never going to make a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin by His son being the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believeth.,

 

[royalscot]

When I became a christian I became aware/ was conscious of my sin before God for the first time in my life. Could I at that point explain doctrinally what sin was? Probably not. I never knew when I became a christian the law God required me to keep had been written on my mind and placed on my heart.

John defined sin under the new covenant:

Sin is(not was) the transgression of the law. 1john 3:4 KJV

john was jewish.
acts 10 asks why did cornelious not repent, acts 15 asks, what law was given to the gentiles. (you need a law to repent from, as act 15 clear states , the gentiles, do not have the full law.)

believing in a saviour has nothing to do with sin.

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

so telling people of this savior ,(was the heart of the message for all christain believer jewish and gentiles) would provide, you the answer to this verse.the follower of the jewish way, were still required to follow law, because of the requirement of the law, they needed a temple of stone.

paul however confirmed this in gal and acts 15

10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15

saved by grace. a gift.

 

[KennethC]

Yes. "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Our earthy fathers corrects us in our flesh - in the "seat of learning"..lol .. but our heavenly Father corrects us in our spirit with His Word!

Yet that chastising is still for our correction, not for us to continue living enmity lifestyles against Him.

It Cleary says in John that one of the things the Holy Spirit was sent to do is convicted us believers when we sin to correct us by helping us turn from those ways so we will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

 

[Grace777x70]

Christian is not under the moral law as far as keeping it for righteousness. I agree with you that the love of God in us fulfills the law of Moses in our hearts. The 10 commandments are the very weapons that satan uses against us but thank God that Jesus nailed that to cross with Him Col. 2:13-15.

Christ fulfilled the law for us which is why we are not under the law anymore for righteousness. Christ's life in us fulfills the law as His life is expressed in our lives. The law of love as you say does constrain us to live "righteously" if you will. This love in reality has nothing to do with keeping the law of Moses - the love in us goes way beyond the keeping of the law.

We are not under the law for righteousness anymore but that is not saying that murder now for example is a good thing. The law is good!! - it's just that we cannot keep it. Jesus did it for us!

And that law of liberty in Christ by walking in LOVE establishes and upholds the law/commandments as Jesus and Paul cleary said and showed.

The commandments were never abolished, only in written ordinance form were they done away not the moral that is written in our hearts and minds.

 

[KennethC]

The lake of fire is not for the regenerate Christian.

The lake of fire is for unbelievers and the disobedient both.

Lord Jesus gave two teachings about warning in being disobedient servants, and in both teachings the ending result for such people is not eternally life.

 

[crossnote]

When you do not follow after the Spirit, but rather the flesh, God does not come behind you with a big stick, threatening to beat you into submission with it. You suffer as a person by not following after the Holy Spirit, for you have been born again. You will have no rest, no peace as long as you take this course, you will not succeed in life, nor find any happiness, you will become miserable and downcast, and despondant. The longer it takes you to bow the knee, the more this will happen.
There is no licence to sin in grace, God is not stupid, he was never going to make a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin by His son being the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believeth.,

God may start off with a soft warning, but due to our stubbornness at times His warning can increase into a rebuke then a paddle etc.. In other words He has His ways to finally get our attention when we are playing Jonah.

 

[crossnote]

The lake of fire is for unbelievers and the disobedient both.

Lord Jesus gave two teachings about warning in being disobedient servants, and in both teachings the ending result for such people is not eternally life.

He does not throw His children into the Lake of fire they have already passed from condemnation into LIFE.
Anyways this OSAS is not the topic at hand.

 

[james57]

john was jewish.
acts 10 asks why did cornelious not repent, acts 15 asks, what law was given to the gentiles. (you need a law to repent from, as act 15 clear states , the gentiles, do not have the full law.)

believing in a saviour has nothing to do with sin.

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

so telling people of this savior ,(was the heart of the message for all christain believer jewish and gentiles) would provide, you the answer to this verse.the follower of the jewish way, were still required to follow law, because of the requirement of the law, they needed a temple of stone.

paul however confirmed this in gal and acts 15

10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15

saved by grace. a gift.

Absolutely saved by grace-a gift.
What law was given to the Gentiles? It would include the following I suggest:


You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness-not full stop Rom 10:4

Sin always has been transgression of the law.
Jesus died for all our sins at calvary, past, present and future.
Therefore Paul states.
No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law(Rom 3:20)
And
The Christian has a righteousness apart from the law(Rom3:21&22)

Why are the above statements true?

For sin is transgression of the law, and Jesus died for all the Christians sins at calvary. A Christians righteousness is faith in Christ-not obedience to the law

 

[Grace777x70]

John 16:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

There is no place in the New testament that says the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sin. I realize that is commonly taught but here in John it clearly states that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they do not believe in Me.

Unfortunately many of our traditions taught to us are not really in the bible. Jesus said :

Mark 7:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I encourage you to search this out in the scriptures.

Yet that chastising is still for our correction, not for us to continue living enmity lifestyles against Him.

It Cleary says in John that one of the things the Holy Spirit was sent to do is convicted us believers when we sin to correct us by helping us turn from those ways so we will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

 

[james57]

God may start off with a soft warning, but due to our stubbornness at times His warning can increase into a rebuke then a paddle etc.. In other words He has His ways to finally get our attention when we are playing Jonah.

I see it that the longer it takes us to bow the knee the more we bring suffering to ourselves, until we bow the knee. It can be no other way for one born again

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure, God's chastisement, scourging,rebukes etc., are done for our good out of His great love for us and not out of vindictiveness.

The way some were speaking, it was if God would never do such a thing.

I thank God my father did.

And I thank God that He has done it many times when I needed it..

If God did not chasten me sternly when I walk away for 5 years. I would be dead now (physicaly) of my own doing, I have no doubt of that.

 

[crossnote]

John 16:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

There is no place in the New testament that says the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sin. I realize that is commonly taught but here in John it clearly states that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they do not believe in Me.

Unfortunately many of our traditions taught to us are not really in the bible. Jesus said :

Mark 7:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I encourage you to search this out in the scriptures.

Who, if not the Holy Spirit convicted the man sleeping with his father's wife of sin to the point where he repented. 1Cor and IICor ?

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree 100%! I believe it's HOW He does it is where differences can come into play. I like to stick to the New Covenant. Jesus said that no one knows the Father but the Son. So, you cannot find the true nature of God revealed openly until we look at Jesus. he is the exact representation of the Father. Does Jesus cause "situations of disaster" to come to anyone? No. but he certainly does "correct" them with His words!

He's a good, good father!

Sure, God's chastisement, scourging,rebukes etc., are done for our good out of His great love for us and not out of vindictiveness.

The way some were speaking, it was if God would never do such a thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The penalty for repented of sin removed, yes we can agree then.

A child of God has no unrepentant sin. He repented of his sinful ways and became a new creature the moment he chose to trust Christ.

Thats why you and I and others of us can not come as one, because you think a child of God is capable of haviing unreptentant sin, when that is impossible.

I am sure you still have me on ignore. But had to make the point anyway.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When you do not follow after the Spirit, but rather the flesh, God does not come behind you with a big stick, threatening to beat you into submission with it. You suffer as a person by not following after the Holy Spirit, for you have been born again. You will have no rest, no peace as long as you take this course, you will not succeed in life, nor find any happiness, you will become miserable and downcast, and despondant. The longer it takes you to bow the knee, the more this will happen.
There is no licence to sin in grace, God is not stupid, he was never going to make a covenant that gave anyone a licence to sin by His son being the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believeth.,

it is worse for a child of God to do this than a child of this world. who may be in pain and not even realize it..