How would you answer?

[AuntieAnt]

Other than merely becoming indignant, and while pounding on a Bible, screaming that "God can do whatever He wants, because God is God!", how would you answer someone who asked you an honest question like this. (And, believe me, IF YOU ACTUALLY DO LISTEN, many people are asking very similar questions.)

I know many of us cannot answer such a question rationally, without just digging our heels into stubborn dogma.... so this question is not for us. It is for the few reasonable people here who care about other people.

*********************
If you cannot find better ways of solving your problems than resorting to violence, we would be very quick to point out the underdeveloped nature of your moral compass. When, however, "God" can find no better way of solving his problems than a resorting to violence; and when his "final solution" to the problem of sin looks more Hitler-esque than holy, we are told we must call it good.

One modern, Calvinistic preacher has said: "It is not an exaggeration to say that the last thing that the accursed sinner should and will hear when he takes his first step into hell, is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding God, because he has rid the earth of him."

In this understanding of "God", you mustn't merely agree internally that all of God's actions are good, but must applaud him for carrying out acts that, if performed by a human, would earn them a life sentence in prison, or worse!

My friends, when your understanding of the holiness of God forces you to lay aside what you know to be moral in favor of what you know to be immoral, there is a very large problem with your concept of God's holiness. If you must, under pain of death, call the actions of a superior force "good", when everything within you knows those actions to be evil, you are not serving the Father Jesus revealed. This sounds far more like North Korea than it does the Kingdom of God.

God's holiness is manifested in his mercy, and in his unwillingness to resort to the methods we resort to. He does not valorize the actions of mad dictators and genocidal maniacs, but contradicts them. How we can condemn the actions of a Hitler, many of whose victims would be understood by the evangelical Christian as having gone straight to hell, and then turn around and praise the "God" who only intensifies what Hitler began, is absolutely beyond me.

You cannot call Hitler bad, and the one who presently tortures his "unsaved" victims' souls good, and keep your moral integrity intact. If Hitler is bad, so is the deity who takes up his mantle once the victim passes into the next life. If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames.

What was the question, Willie? I read & re-read your post and I don't know what query you're referring to. Thanks.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You cannot call Hitler bad, and the one who presently tortures his "unsaved" victims' souls good, and keep your moral integrity intact. If Hitler is bad, so is the deity who takes up his mantle once the victim passes into the next life. If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames.

Well, this says it all about you Willie and requires repentance on you part. First of all, all people are guilty of sin and the reward for sin is death, which is ultimately separation from God in the lake of fire. These are scriptural facts. No true Christian is applauding in regards to people headed for condemning judgment and neither is God. For scripture states that God is not willing that any should perish, but that does not interfere or override his righteous judgment.

For those who are tortured and killed by the Hitler's of the world, if they were without God when they died, being without faith, then yes, they went to Hades where they will remain in torment until they stand before God at the great white throne judgment, where they will then be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. The things that they suffered in life does not remove their sins and make them exempt from judgment, as they are still sinners, regardless of what happens to them in life. God is a righteous judge and because all sin is against God, it will all be accounted for. For those who are in Christ, he was held accountable for all believer's sins. For those who die without Christ, they will be held accountable for their own sins, every idle word that they spoke and that because God is a righteous judge and who are you or anyone to question him? No one is entitled to salvation, for all have sinned and fall short of God's standards for righteousness. Is God not the creator? Does he not have the right to do as he pleases without first consulting his creation? Does God need permission from us?

The wrath of God is coming, where he is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government and this because of sin. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ there is going to be a great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead throughout history, who will then be thrown into the lake of fire.

You have called into question God's righteousness and sovereignty and have sinned against him by your statement above and that because he is the God who created those places called Hades and the lake of fire, so yes, he is the One who created the punishment (stokes the flames) and he is righteous by doing so. God is the One who is Sovereign and makes the rules and he can do whatever he wants.

"Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Do you think that those sinner's who suffered at the hands of the Hitler's of the world are exempt because they suffered in this way? I tell you no! But unless you repent, you too will perish.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

In the last line of your post you have called God evil, because he indeed is the One who created the fires of punishment for sinners and they will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever just as scripture states. Do you have a problem with that or does God need to consult you and get your permission before he judges the unrighteous in the way that he deems just? By the way, all moral integrity comes from God, as we were created in his image after his likeness. It is not something that human beings just acquired on their own. That said, do you think that your righteousness exceeds God's?

You have said "If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames." Well, he is the God who created eternal punishment in flame and therefore according to your statement, you have called him evil and you have brought into question his righteousness and sovereignty. My sincere advice to you, is to fall on your knees in repentance regarding this, asking for forgiveness, because God sees these posts and he is the One who searches the hearts and the minds.

 

[Willie-T]

Well, this says it all about you Willie and requires repentance on you part. First of all, all people are guilty of sin and the reward for sin is death, which is ultimately separation from God in the lake of fire. These are scriptural facts. No true Christian is applauding in regards to people headed for condemning judgment and neither is God. For scripture states that God is not willing that any should perish, but that does not interfere or override his righteous judgment.

For those who are tortured and killed by the Hitler's of the world, if they were without God when they died, being without faith, then yes, they went to Hades where they will remain in torment until they stand before God at the great white throne judgment, where they will then be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. The things that they suffered in life does not remove their sins and make them exempt from judgment, as they are still sinners, regardless of what happens to them in life. God is a righteous judge and because all sin is against God, it will all be accounted for. For those who are in Christ, he was held accountable for all believer's sins. For those who die without Christ, they will be held accountable for their own sins, every idle word that they spoke and that because God is a righteous judge and who are you or anyone to question him? No one is entitled to salvation, for all have sinned and fall short of God's standards for righteousness. Is God not the creator? Does he not have the right to do as he pleases without first consulting his creation? Does God need permission from us?

The wrath of God is coming, where he is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government and this because of sin. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ there is going to be a great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead throughout history, who will then be thrown into the lake of fire.

You have called into question God's righteousness and sovereignty and have sinned against him by your statement above and that because he is the God who created those places called Hades and the lake of fire, so yes, he is the One who created the punishment (stokes the flames) and he is righteous by doing so. God is the One who is Sovereign and makes the rules and he can do whatever he wants.

"Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Do you think that those sinner's who suffered at the hands of the Hitler's of the world are exempt because they suffered in this way? I tell you no! But unless you repent, you too will perish.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

In the last line of your post you have called God evil, because he indeed is the One who created the fires of punishment for sinners and they will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever just as scripture states. Do you have a problem with that or does God need to consult you and get your permission before he judges the unrighteous in the way that he deems just? By the way, all moral integrity comes from God, as we were created in his image after his likeness. It is not something that human beings just acquired on their own. That said, do you think that your righteousness exceeds God's?

You have said "If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames." Well, he is the God who created eternal punishment in flame and therefore according to your statement, you have called him evil and you have brought into question his righteousness and sovereignty. My sincere advice to you, is to fall on your knees in repentance regarding this, asking for forgiveness, because God sees these posts and he is the One who searches the hearts and the minds.

As usual, your very first sentence (and others strewn throughout your reply) shows you didn't even bother to really read the post.

 

[BenFTW]

Well, this says it all about you Willie and requires repentance on you part. First of all, all people are guilty of sin and the reward for sin is death, which is ultimately separation from God in the lake of fire. These are scriptural facts. No true Christian is applauding in regards to people headed for condemning judgment and neither is God. For scripture states that God is not willing that any should perish, but that does not interfere or override his righteous judgment.

For those who are tortured and killed by the Hitler's of the world, if they were without God when they died, being without faith, then yes, they went to Hades where they will remain in torment until they stand before God at the great white throne judgment, where they will then be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. The things that they suffered in life does not remove their sins and make them exempt from judgment, as they are still sinners, regardless of what happens to them in life. God is a righteous judge and because all sin is against God, it will all be accounted for. For those who are in Christ, he was held accountable for all believer's sins. For those who die without Christ, they will be held accountable for their own sins, every idle word that they spoke and that because God is a righteous judge and who are you or anyone to question him? No one is entitled to salvation, for all have sinned and fall short of God's standards for righteousness. Is God not the creator? Does he not have the right to do as he pleases without first consulting his creation? Does God need permission from us?

The wrath of God is coming, where he is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government and this because of sin. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ there is going to be a great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead throughout history, who will then be thrown into the lake of fire.

You have called into question God's righteousness and sovereignty and have sinned against him by your statement above and that because he is the God who created those places called Hades and the lake of fire, so yes, he is the One who created the punishment (stokes the flames) and he is righteous by doing so. God is the One who is Sovereign and makes the rules and he can do whatever he wants.

"Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Do you think that those sinner's who suffered at the hands of the Hitler's of the world are exempt because they suffered in this way? I tell you no! But unless you repent, you too will perish.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

In the last line of your post you have called God evil, because he indeed is the One who created the fires of punishment for sinners and they will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever just as scripture states. Do you have a problem with that or does God need to consult you and get your permission before he judges the unrighteous in the way that he deems just? By the way, all moral integrity comes from God, as we were created in his image after his likeness. It is not something that human beings just acquired on their own. That said, do you think that your righteousness exceeds God's?

You have said "If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames." Well, he is the God who created eternal punishment in flame and therefore according to your statement, you have called him evil and you have brought into question his righteousness and sovereignty. My sincere advice to you, is to fall on your knees in repentance regarding this, asking for forgiveness, because God sees these posts and he is the One who searches the hearts and the minds.

Those weren't VVillie's words but rather an exert from something. I've read it somewhere before. I think VVillie was just inquiring what our response would be to that statement/assertion of someone in questioning God's actions taken in the OT. How we reconcile God the Father and Jesus in the NT, if they are one why is it God often is presented in such a harsh way and Jesus, ever so gentle? Not questioning their oneness but what is the proper response to an inquiry of God's actions taken in the OT?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Other than merely becoming indignant, and while pounding on a Bible, screaming that "God can do whatever He wants, because God is God!", how would you answer someone who asked you an honest question like this. (And, believe me, IF YOU ACTUALLY DO LISTEN, many people are asking very similar questions.)

I know many of us cannot answer such a question rationally, without just digging our heels into stubborn dogma.... so this question is not for us. It is for the few reasonable people here who care about other people.

*********************
If you cannot find better ways of solving your problems than resorting to violence, we would be very quick to point out the underdeveloped nature of your moral compass. When, however, "God" can find no better way of solving his problems than a resorting to violence; and when his "final solution" to the problem of sin looks more Hitler-esque than holy, we are told we must call it good.

One modern, Calvinistic preacher has said: "It is not an exaggeration to say that the last thing that the accursed sinner should and will hear when he takes his first step into hell, is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding God, because he has rid the earth of him."

In this understanding of "God", you mustn't merely agree internally that all of God's actions are good, but must applaud him for carrying out acts that, if performed by a human, would earn them a life sentence in prison, or worse!

My friends, when your understanding of the holiness of God forces you to lay aside what you know to be moral in favor of what you know to be immoral, there is a very large problem with your concept of God's holiness. If you must, under pain of death, call the actions of a superior force "good", when everything within you knows those actions to be evil, you are not serving the Father Jesus revealed. This sounds far more like North Korea than it does the Kingdom of God.

God's holiness is manifested in his mercy, and in his unwillingness to resort to the methods we resort to. He does not valorize the actions of mad dictators and genocidal maniacs, but contradicts them. How we can condemn the actions of a Hitler, many of whose victims would be understood by the evangelical Christian as having gone straight to hell, and then turn around and praise the "God" who only intensifies what Hitler began, is absolutely beyond me.

You cannot call Hitler bad, and the one who presently tortures his "unsaved" victims' souls good, and keep your moral integrity intact. If Hitler is bad, so is the deity who takes up his mantle once the victim passes into the next life. If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames.

I would answer that Hell is not God's final solution to sin, Jesus Christ is. That the devil that Calvinism makes of God is the reason I could never be a Calvinist. That no one goes to Hell because they are "bad", but that they go there because they are dead, and have freely chosen to reject the only One who has the life they need, Jesus Christ.

 

[Willie-T]

Those weren't VVillie's words but rather an exert from something. I've read it somewhere before. I think VVillie was just inquiring what our response would be to that statement/assertion of someone in questioning God's actions taken in the OT. How we reconcile God the Father and Jesus in the NT, if they are one why is it God often is presented in such a harsh way and Jesus, ever so gentle? Not questioning their oneness but what is the proper response to an inquiry of God's actions taken in the OT?

Thank you. I'm afraid that he has gotten so used to wanting to condemn me to Hell that he no longer knows anything but automatically putting down anything I post.

 

[Willie-T]

I would answer that Hell is not God's final solution to sin, Jesus Christ is. That the devil that Calvinism makes of God is the reason I could never be a Calvinist. That no one goes to Hell because they are "bad", but that they go there because they are dead, and have freely chosen to reject the only One who has the life they need, Jesus Christ.

I think that's a pretty reasonable reply. Thanks.

 

[BenFTW]

I would answer that Hell is not God's final solution to sin, Jesus Christ is. That the devil that Calvinism makes of God is the reason I could never be a Calvinist. That no one goes to Hell because they are "bad", but that they go there because they are dead, and have freely chosen to reject the only One who has the life they need, Jesus Christ.

A different/good angle to take. Less combative and still Jesus glorifying. One could also argue people don't go to Hell for all of their sins but because of their disbelief in Christ since He is the propitiation for the sins of the world.

 

[kodiak]

Well, this says it all about you Willie and requires repentance on you part. First of all, all people are guilty of sin and the reward for sin is death, which is ultimately separation from God in the lake of fire. These are scriptural facts. No true Christian is applauding in regards to people headed for condemning judgment and neither is God. For scripture states that God is not willing that any should perish, but that does not interfere or override his righteous judgment.

For those who are tortured and killed by the Hitler's of the world, if they were without God when they died, being without faith, then yes, they went to Hades where they will remain in torment until they stand before God at the great white throne judgment, where they will then be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. The things that they suffered in life does not remove their sins and make them exempt from judgment, as they are still sinners, regardless of what happens to them in life. God is a righteous judge and because all sin is against God, it will all be accounted for. For those who are in Christ, he was held accountable for all believer's sins. For those who die without Christ, they will be held accountable for their own sins, every idle word that they spoke and that because God is a righteous judge and who are you or anyone to question him? No one is entitled to salvation, for all have sinned and fall short of God's standards for righteousness. Is God not the creator? Does he not have the right to do as he pleases without first consulting his creation? Does God need permission from us?

The wrath of God is coming, where he is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government and this because of sin. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ there is going to be a great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead throughout history, who will then be thrown into the lake of fire.

You have called into question God's righteousness and sovereignty and have sinned against him by your statement above and that because he is the God who created those places called Hades and the lake of fire, so yes, he is the One who created the punishment (stokes the flames) and he is righteous by doing so. God is the One who is Sovereign and makes the rules and he can do whatever he wants.

"Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Do you think that those sinner's who suffered at the hands of the Hitler's of the world are exempt because they suffered in this way? I tell you no! But unless you repent, you too will perish.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

In the last line of your post you have called God evil, because he indeed is the One who created the fires of punishment for sinners and they will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever just as scripture states. Do you have a problem with that or does God need to consult you and get your permission before he judges the unrighteous in the way that he deems just? By the way, all moral integrity comes from God, as we were created in his image after his likeness. It is not something that human beings just acquired on their own. That said, do you think that your righteousness exceeds God's?

You have said "If Hitler is evil so is hell, and, consequently, so is the "God" who stokes its flames." Well, he is the God who created eternal punishment in flame and therefore according to your statement, you have called him evil and you have brought into question his righteousness and sovereignty. My sincere advice to you, is to fall on your knees in repentance regarding this, asking for forgiveness, because God sees these posts and he is the One who searches the hearts and the minds.

You may want to read what is being said before you go off on someone. Why does he need to repent for caring about other people? He even stated in post 3

That's why I don't know what to say to him.

He was asking for advice on how to help his friend with that question, and I don't think saying what you just said to him would work....
I am so glad there are people like Willie who will go through being called a sinner and worse just to help people get through doubt and disbelief.

 

[Willie-T]

What was the question, Willie? I read & re-read your post and I don't know what query you're referring to. Thanks.

From the line of asterisks, on down, this is a post a friend of mine put on his FB wall.

I was just asking how each of us might reply to him. Be aware that this particular man knows Scripture far better than 98% of the people I know anywhere, and that he has been a minister for about 15 years.

This isn't just a fluke with him. He was, for at least eight or ten years of his preaching career, probably more of a dogmatic, stubborn, fire and brimstone, dyed-in-the-wool legalist and Traditionalist than most here. But, he feels God brought him to a point that he was told it was time to meet the true God, and quit misleading people.

So, maybe he has gone a little overboard in the other direction.

But, he is a truer lover of God than most, and I love him almost like a younger brother. That is why I asked those who could only answer in their usual negative manner to back off, and let those with loving, compassionate hearts give replies.

 

[BenFTW]

This kind of opens a can of worms, but has anyone considered Ananias and Sapphira? The OT isn't the only time someone was struck dead. I've heard it said that it was God protecting His flock, protecting His children. Some say they weren't believers but were there because they enjoyed the blessings of the community/fellowship.

I've always had the thought that if they truly were God's children, born-again, they are in Heaven with their Father. God doesn't lose any of His children and He is faithful to carry out His will and promise to Jesus (I.e, He wouldn't lose one that God has given Him).

 

[Willie-T]

A different/good angle to take. Less combative and still Jesus glorifying. One could also argue people don't go to Hell for all of their sins but because of their disbelief in Christ since He is the propitiation for the sins of the world.

Again, I like it. All this is helping me develop a line of thinking that may reach him better than the limited replies I had in my repertoire.

 

[Willie-T]

This kind of opens a can of worms, but has anyone considered Ananias and Sapphira? The OT isn't the only time someone was struck dead. I've heard it said that it was God protecting His flock, protecting His children. Some say they weren't believers but were there because they enjoyed the blessings of the community/fellowship.

I've always had the thought that if they truly were God's children, born-again, they are in Heaven with their Father. God doesn't lose any of His children and He is faithful to carry out His will and promise to Jesus (I.e, He wouldn't lose one that God has given Him).

Excellent. Thank you.

 

[Willie-T]

You may want to read what is being said before you go off on someone. Why does he need to repent for caring about other people? He even stated in post 3
He was asking for advice on how to help his friend with that question, and I don't think saying what you just said to him would work....
I am so glad there are people like Willie who will go through being called a sinner and worse just to help people get through doubt and disbelief.

Thank you, mucho. I guess ya just get used to it after a while. (Sort of..... ) LOL

 

[SpiritSong]

I would answer that Hell is not God's final solution to sin, Jesus Christ is. That the devil that Calvinism makes of God is the reason I could never be a Calvinist. That no one goes to Hell because they are "bad", but that they go there because they are dead, and have freely chosen to reject the only One who has the life they need, Jesus Christ.

This is what I was trying to say in my post. thank you

 

[SpiritSong]

Well, this says it all about you Willie and requires repentance on you part.

That is not fair at all. You probably won't apologise, but I certainly think you should.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Again, I like it. All this is helping me develop a line of thinking that may reach him better than the limited replies I had in my repertoire.

I'm surprised being a minister that he would think it is about good boy bad boy and not about life or death.

 

[BenFTW]

I'm surprised being a minister that he would think it is about good boy bad boy and not about life or death.

The lens of the cross.

 

[Willie-T]

I'm surprised being a minister that he would think it is about good boy bad boy and not about life or death.

He doesn't. Reading more than just that tiny post will show that. His book is kind of "theological" for some (and has a lot of typos LOL) but it is not very expensive, and well worth the read.

 

[FreeNChrist]

He doesn't. Reading more than just that tiny post will show that. His book is kind of "theological" for some (and has a lot of typos LOL) but it is not very expensive, and well worth the read.

Oh, it's that guy I didn't realize. Hey, if anyone has been prepared by God to help those coming out of legalism it's you, bro. My Dad was a minister, and I asked him once how he dealt with those like your friend and his response was to talk to them about your own experience, because no one can argue with your own experience. (although they may still try too, lol). So, I pass that on to you for what it's worth.