Dispensationalism

[BibleGuy]

I got in trouble for presuming that dispensationalist's believe these two teachings.

Originally Posted by crossnote
"The core of dispensationalism is twofold.
1. A literal approach to Scripture.
2. A distinction between Israel and the Church.
I hold to both"
So lets discuss number 2, Is this a fundamental belief in dispensationalism, and is it correct?

Use Scripture please.

Yes, dispensationalists generally hold to a distinction between "Israel" and "church".

Thus, they are wrong.

Why? Because there is no distinction between "Israel" and "church".

Rather, "Israel" and "church" are simply two different terms which reference the SAME people-group.

For example:

1. Of all the kingdoms of the earth, only the family-nation of Israel has been chosen to function as a kingdom of priests unto YHVH (Ex. 19:5-6). Those who obey Jesus (1 Pe. 1:2) are identified as that royal priesthood (1 Pe. 2:9). Thus, Christians (those who obey Jesus) are included within Israel. Thus, Christians are Israelites. Thus, the church is Israel.

2. The Ten Commandments represent a covenant (Ex. 34:10,28; Dt. 9:9) between YHVH and Israel (Ex. 34:27-28). Christians should obey the Ten Commandments (1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Jn. 5:3). Therefore, Christian obedience to the Ten Commandments properly derives from the fact that Christians are Israelites. Thus, the church is Israel.

3. Only Israel comprises the people of God who are God’s possession/inheritance (Dt. 4:20). Those who obey Jesus (1 Pe. 1:2) are identified as that people belonging to God (1 Pe. 2:9). Thus, Christians are included in Israel. Thus, the church is Israel.

4. Only the family of Israel is YHVH’s chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6). Those who obey Jesus (1 Pe. 1:2) are identified as that chosen people (1 Pe. 2:9). It follows that Christians (those who obey Jesus) are included in the family of Israel. Thus, Christians are Israelites. Thus, the church is Israel.

5. The people of YHVH are the people of Israel (Dt. 21:8). Christians are the people of YHVH (Heb. 4:9; 1 Pe. 2:10). Thus, Christians are included in the people of Israel. Thus, Christians are Israelites. Thus, the church is Israel.

6. Christians partake in the New Covenant. The New Covenant is ONLY between YHVH and Israel (Jer. 31:33). Therefore, ONLY Israelites participate in the New Covenant. Thus, Christians must be Israelites so as to partake in the New Covenant. Thus, Christians are Israelites. Thus, the church is Israel.

7. Only Israel is a holy family-nation unto YHVH (Dt. 26:19). Those who obey Jesus (1 Pe. 1:2) are identified as that holy nation (1 Pe. 2:9). Thus, Christians (those who obey Jesus) are included within Israel. Thus, Christians are Israelites. Thus, the church is Israel.


So, does "church" replace "Israel"?

No! They are simply different terms referencing the SAME people group.

I could go on and on and on....

But that's a good start.

blessings...
BibleGuy

PS Since we Christians are ISRAELITES, it follows that we should obey the Torah given to us (Mal. 4:4).

After all, why would we oppose the very Torah of the Torah-laden covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12) in which we participate?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Bibleguy,

You have not yet answered regarding what Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." The Greek word for "I will build" is in the future tense, as in, something yet to be built.

Also as I have pointed out in previous posts, on the gates of the new Jerusalem you have the twelve tribes of Israel written on them repersenting the nation Israel. Likewise the city has twelve foundations on which the names of the twelve apostles are written representing the church. Of the twenty four elders introduced in Rev.4, twelve are representing Israel and twelve are representing the church.

The nation Israel is not the church and never has been, but are a separate program from the church. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, making the two into one man. Those who are of Israel consider themselves as still being under the law and since they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, they are still waiting for their Messiah to appear. The promise to the church is to return and gather us and to take us back to the Father's house, while Israel will be here during that last seven years and will be cared for by God out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years in fulfillment of the last seven years of God's decree upon them for seventy seven year periods.

Since Jesus made the statement "I will build" my church, this would then demonstrate that it not yet been built, which means that the OT saints were not apart of it.

 

[garee]

Please explain what you think the Catholics believe?

Hi, Thanks I can try.

I believe from my experiences with them, they think what some call soul sleep according to the teaching of the words found in a few different places in the scriptures as that which should comfort us, is rather a Protestant thing that according to their fathers, called apostolic succession as commandments of men who the pew Catholics must venerate..... they must ignore that scripture at all cost or they loose their foundation of a Queen that they have named Mary. You could say as willfully ignorant of that which should comfort us.

Personally it sends a chill down my spine knowing its the Legion as many(3500 and rising) seeing when the legion does come up it never comes up as one and therefore the need of a idol images called a teraphim is needed to put a face on the disembodied worker with a familiar spirit to receive the one they are putting their misguided faith in..

The saints that leave this realm under the sun are asleep never having anything ever again to do any work here fore-ever more.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1Th 4:13

 

[Dan_473]

Seriously?

Come on now...Dan! I hope you're joking.

Think about it....I guess Paul was full of TRANSGRESSION because he spoke until midnight when someone even fell asleep out of a window? (Ac. 20:7-9)

Of course not!

And Paul's discourse that evening would have been MUCH longer than my post.

You have not properly understood the genre exemplified in the Proverbs...

Let's be careful.

FURTHERMORE, the very Scripture (Pr. 10:19) you've quoted merely confirms my position:

It is wise to avoid transgression (Heb. “pesha”, Pr. 10:19). “Pesha” translates to “anomia” in Greek (compare Ps. 32:1 with Rom. 4:7). “Anomia” is lawlessness (Torah-lessness). Thus, “pesha” is violation of the Torah. It follows that it is wise to avoid violation of the Torah. Christians should, thus, be wise and obey the Torah.

best....
BibleGuy

' Think about it....I guess Paul was full of TRANSGRESSION because he spoke until midnight when someone even fell asleep out of a window? (Ac. 20:7-9)'

apostles don't always do the right thing

GALATIANS 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It follows that it is wise to avoid violation of the Torah. Christians should, thus, be wise and obey the Torah.

We would all fail at it! In fact, we are told right in scripture that no one can keep the law, which is why Jesus came and met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf. Here is just one of the many things that Paul had to say regarding our not being under the works of the law:

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Anyone who is trusting in the works of the law as a requirement for salvation in addition to Christ's sacrifice, they have wandered away from grace. They have been alienated from Christ. Believers in Christ are not under the law by any means. We are under a new covenant in the shed blood of Christ and lead by the Spirit.

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

Anyone who is trusting in the law to be right with God will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[John146]

We would all fail at it! In fact, we are told right in scripture that no one can keep the law, which is why Jesus came and met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf. Here is just one of the many things that Paul had to say regarding our not being under the works of the law:

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Anyone who is trusting in the works of the law as a requirement for salvation in addition to Christ's sacrifice, they have wandered away from grace. They have been alienated from Christ. Believers in Christ are not under the law by any means. We are under a new covenant in the shed blood of Christ and lead by the Spirit.

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

Anyone who is trusting in the law to be right with God will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Keeping the law was possible. Remember, the sacrificial system was put in place to make up for breaking a commandment. It was part of the law.

Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"

1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"

Doing the works of the law could bring about righteousness, but it was self righteousness from works and not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ. See Romans 10:

2 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Many OT saints were righteous by being blameless under the law. Luke 1:

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

It was their righteousness, not God's righteousness. God's righteousness was not available yet. The HUGE difference is the sin issue. The sacrificial system could forgive a man's sins, but could NEVER take away sins. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can take away sins. This is the righteousness of God to every one who believeth.

 

[garee]

Keeping the law was possible. Remember, the sacrificial system was put in place to make up for breaking a commandment. It was part of the law.

I don’t think there is another law other than paying the eternal wage of sin,which Christ did perform in our behalf.

I think you are referring to the ceremonial laws as a fleshly ordinances. They as parables are used to bring the gospel of Christ beforehand in respect to the suffering of Christ and the glory of Him appearing temporally in the flesh.

This was to demonstrate what those kind of laws did as far as “nothing” pertaining to the conscience of men but were required up until the first century reformation. A difference between the things of God and those of men must be distinguished seeing it is there that the fathers of lies gets his foot in the door of the church.

The book of Hebrews, I believe was set aside for all the confusion that came because of the first century reformation. This is when men no longer looked to the corrupted flesh of a Jew but looked to the eternal as that not seen .The faith principle.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them “until” the "time of reformation". Heb 9:8-10

This is when the shadows of many of those ceremonial laws became sight. They are no longer considered as law now that Christ had fulfilled them. .Christ fulfilled the requirement of those temporal shadows which again was shown by His suffering.

Receiving the “end” of your faith, even the “salvation of your souls”. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the “Spirit of Christ” which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1Pe 1:9

 

[Nikki84]

Hello Nikki84,

Really? Interesting...I suppose that the church does it in a kind of "commemorative" or "memorialized" kind of way?

I suppose that's ok...just as a symbolic reminder of spiritual realities.

But then again, a quick scan of "qatar" and "minchah" in the Torah of Moses confirms that true obedience to these commands pertaining to incense and grain offerings REQUIRES Torah-sanctioned properly functioning Levitical priestly ceremonial sacrificial activity. (wow...that's a mouthful....)

So yes, come to think of it, I now remember participating in a church service once where various "offerings" were spiritualized in a Christ-honoring sort of way....

That's ok! After all, the Torah IS (not "was", but IS) an ongoing shadow pointing to greater realities in our Messiah (Col. 2:17).

Cool...

In fact, it will be even cooler when Levitical Torah is again fully restored and properly fully pointing to the Messiah as it has always been designed to point.

BibleGuy

Today it requires a Catholic priest and is not a memorial. We call it Mass

 

[Ahwatukee]

Keeping the law was possible. Remember, the sacrificial system was put in place to make up for breaking a commandment. It was part of the law.

Are you people going to find out the truth after it is too late, when you are turned away by the Lord. The law is in reference to the entire law and not just to the sacrificial law. Jesus fulfilled the whole thing. As scripture states, the law of Moses--all 600 of them--was meant only to show us our sins and it was only meant to last until the promised seed had come. Now that Christ has come, we are no longer under law as our guardian.

"Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[SUP]i[/SUP] meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. "

By claiming that it was only sacrificial law that was done away with--which by the way is found no where in scripture--you are just circumventing the word of God. In the scripture above, the law that Paul is speaking about that was given 430 years after the promise was given to Abraham, was speaking in regards to the whole law that was given to Israel through Moses and not just the sacrificial law.When will you people let go of your own efforts, as though to take credit for having part in salvation and trust solely in Christ and his finished work?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Keeping the law was possible. Remember, the sacrificial system was put in place to make up for breaking a commandment. It was part of the law.

Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"

1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"

Doing the works of the law could bring about righteousness, but it was self righteousness from works and not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ. See Romans 10:

2 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Many OT saints were righteous by being blameless under the law. Luke 1:

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

It was their righteousness, not God's righteousness. God's righteousness was not available yet. The HUGE difference is the sin issue. The sacrificial system could forgive a man's sins, but could NEVER take away sins. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can take away sins. This is the righteousness of God to every one who believeth.

I am concerned for you and others and that because this issue is eternal life threatening to anyone who is believing in something other than Christ as the author and finisher of our faith. You say that the Lord only did away with the sacrificial part of the law, then please consider the following:

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[SUP] [/SUP]Freedom From Human Rules Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Don't let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink (food law) or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon or a Sabbath (legal holy days). In other words, you who are in Christ, don't let anyone who is clinging to the law give you who are under grace a hard time about not keeping Sabbaths, which was mandatory under the law or about eating food that was unclean to eat according to the law, etc., etc. The references above is certainly not just about the sacrificial law. Here is what Peter had to say when a group of Pharisees were making the claim that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to obey the whole law of Moses:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

My prayer for you John and others, is that the Spirit would reveal the truth to you regarding this matter, because as scripture states, by trusting in the works of the law no one will be made righteous before God. Trusting in the law will have the opposite affect, keeping those who do out of the kingdom of God.

 

[John146]

I am concerned for you and others and that because this issue is eternal life threatening to anyone who is believing in something other than Christ as the author and finisher of our faith. You say that the Lord only did away with the sacrificial part of the law, then please consider the following:

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.Freedom From Human Rules Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Don't let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink (food law) or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon or a Sabbath (legal holy days). In other words, you who are in Christ, don't let anyone who is clinging to the law give you who are under grace a hard time about not keeping Sabbaths, which was mandatory under the law or about eating food that was unclean to eat according to the law, etc., etc. The references above is certainly not just about the sacrificial law. Here is what Peter had to say when a group of Pharisees were making the claim that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to obey the whole law of Moses:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

My prayer for you John and others, is that the Spirit would reveal the truth to you regarding this matter, because as scripture states, by trusting in the works of the law no one will be made righteous before God. Trusting in the law will have the opposite affect, keeping those who do out of the kingdom of God.

I don't understand where this is coming from? Did you get this from my post? Where? I'm like you, I believe in eternal through our Lord Jesus Chris alone. I was merely showing that OT saints under the law could be blameless by following the whole law. It was possible per the verses I've provided. Their righteousness was not the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. That's why they could not enter into heaven without the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

We are on the same page.

 

[BibleGuy]

Hello Bibleguy,

You have not yet answered regarding what Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." The Greek word for "I will build" is in the future tense, as in, something yet to be built.

Also as I have pointed out in previous posts, on the gates of the new Jerusalem you have the twelve tribes of Israel written on them repersenting the nation Israel. Likewise the city has twelve foundations on which the names of the twelve apostles are written representing the church. Of the twenty four elders introduced in Rev.4, twelve are representing Israel and twelve are representing the church.

The nation Israel is not the church and never has been, but are a separate program from the church. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, making the two into one man. Those who are of Israel consider themselves as still being under the law and since they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, they are still waiting for their Messiah to appear. The promise to the church is to return and gather us and to take us back to the Father's house, while Israel will be here during that last seven years and will be cared for by God out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years in fulfillment of the last seven years of God's decree upon them for seventy seven year periods.

Since Jesus made the statement "I will build" my church, this would then demonstrate that it not yet been built, which means that the OT saints were not apart of it.

Hello Ahwatukee,

Sorry....thought I already addressed some of your views on this issue awhile back...

Ok....

1. You wrote: "You have not yet answered regarding what Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." The Greek word for "I will build" is in the future tense, as in, something yet to be built."

My response: I WILL BUILD MY FAMILY UPON THE FOUNDATIONAL PREMISES OF THE GOSPEL.

Now, see that statement I just typed (in bold, above)?

Well, this is a true statement...I WILL do this (in the future).

By the way, I ALREADY have a family! AND, I have ALREADY been doing this for a LONG time!

It's not a new family....it's the same family! It's not a NEW construction building project....but it's the SAME building project that I've been involved with for a LONG time. Sure, I will continue to build new things as the project grows and matures, but it's the SAME FAMILY, and a continuation of the SAME building project.

Do you see it?

The point ----> Reference to "church" in the future does NOT entail that the church did not already exist PRIOR to the time the reference was made.

AND, Jesus already referred to "church" PRIOR to the famous Pentecost of Acts 2. Remember? Mt. 18:17 proves that "church" ALREADY EXISTED prior to the Acts 2 Pentecost event.

AND, Paul said he WILL sing in the spirit (1 Cor. 14:15). Does this require that Paul did NOT sing in the spirit until the moment he wrote 1 Cor. 14:15? Of course not. Paul surely sang in the spirit EVEN BEFORE he wrote 1 Cor. 14:15.

AND, 2 Cor. 11:12 is explicit! We can do something in the future, even though we have already being doing it!

CONCLUSION: Future tense ("I will build" in Mt. 16:18) does not require that Jesus had not already been building the church prior to His statement in Mt. 16:18.

Therefore, Mt. 16:18 does NOT prove that the church would exist only sometime after the statement made in Mt. 16:18.


2. You wrote: "Of the twenty four elders introduced in Rev.4, twelve are representing Israel and twelve are representing the church."

My response: Why assume this?


3. You wrote: "The nation Israel is not the church and never has been, but are a separate program from the church."

My response: But I already gave you 7 reasons (http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137602-dispensationalism-9.html#post2668094) which disconfirm your claim here. Why have you not engaged this Biblical evidence directly?


4. You wrote: "Those who are of Israel consider themselves as still being under the law and since they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, they are still waiting for their Messiah to appear."

My response: Paul was an Israelite (Rom. 11:1). So Paul did not recognize Jesus as Messiah? Of course not.


5. You wrote: "The promise to the church is to return and gather us and to take us back to the Father's house, while Israel will be here during that last seven years and will be cared for by God out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years in fulfillment of the last seven years of God's decree upon them for seventy seven year periods."

My response: I understand your eschatological perspective. But you haven't justified it. You've merely stated it. And, we don't justify a perspective by merely stating it.



CONCLUSION: I WILL BUILD MY FAMILY UPON THE FOUNDATIONAL PREMISES OF THE GOSPEL.

And, oh by the way, this Gospel BEGINS with John the Baptist (Mk. 1:1-4) whose message is a voice crying out from the wilderness.

And what is this FOUNDATIONAL message upon which the Gospel is grounded? ANSWER: Is. 40:3-8.

The Word of God endures (Is. 40:8). AND, the Torah is the Word of God (Dt. 1:3; 5:27-33).

Therefore, the Gospel BEGINS with the foundational premise that Torah ENDURES!

I WILL build my family upon this truth.

Will you?


OK.....can you now address these 5 issues on the table?

I'd like to see a defense of your position which accounts for these 5 Scripturally-grounded objections I've raised.

Can you do this?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

' Think about it....I guess Paul was full of TRANSGRESSION because he spoke until midnight when someone even fell asleep out of a window? (Ac. 20:7-9)'

apostles don't always do the right thing

GALATIANS 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Hmmm.....

So you seriously expect us to believe that Paul was FULL OF TRANSGRESSION because he spoke too long? (Ac. 20:7-9)

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

We would all fail at it! In fact, we are told right in scripture that no one can keep the law, which is why Jesus came and met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf. Here is just one of the many things that Paul had to say regarding our not being under the works of the law:

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Anyone who is trusting in the works of the law as a requirement for salvation in addition to Christ's sacrifice, they have wandered away from grace. They have been alienated from Christ. Believers in Christ are not under the law by any means. We are under a new covenant in the shed blood of Christ and lead by the Spirit.

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

Anyone who is trusting in the law to be right with God will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hello Ahwatukee,

You wrote: "In fact, we are told right in scripture that no one can keep the law..."

My response: Then you have opposed Dt. 30:11 which flatly contradicts you.

Paul AGREES, applying Dt. 30 to YOU (Rom. 10:8).

In fact, Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous and blameless in their Torah-obedience (Lk. 1:6).

Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt. 4:4, citing Dt. 8:3, referencing Torah). Jesus never said it was impossible!

Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28). Jesus never said eternal life was impossible to attain!

Jesus applies Dt. 6 to YOU (Mt. 22:37).

And HOW should we express this love for YHVH which Jesus requires? Answer: Through obedience to ALL (Heb. "kol", Dt. 6:25) Torah commands.

Clearly, your position has failed to account for these Biblical considerations.

Please revise your position accordingly.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Keeping the law was possible. Remember, the sacrificial system was put in place to make up for breaking a commandment. It was part of the law.

Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"

1 Kings 11:34, "Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"

Doing the works of the law could bring about righteousness, but it was self righteousness from works and not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ. See Romans 10:

2 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Many OT saints were righteous by being blameless under the law. Luke 1:

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

It was their righteousness, not God's righteousness. God's righteousness was not available yet. The HUGE difference is the sin issue. The sacrificial system could forgive a man's sins, but could NEVER take away sins. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can take away sins. This is the righteousness of God to every one who believeth.

Hello John146,

You wrote: "It was their righteousness, not God's righteousness. God's righteousness was not available yet."

My response: NO. Righteousness has ALWAYS been from God by faith, not works, even in the time of Abraham (Rom. 4:1-3), and THE SAME WAY for us who are of the faith of Abraham (Rom. 4:16), who is the father of us all.

AND, now that we all AGREE that we are righteous by FAITH (not by faithless works). Let's move on!

Should we ALSO DO righteous works of obedience to law?

YES! Abraham did (Ge. 26:5), and so should we (1 Jn. 2:29), or else we are NOT of God (1 Jn. 3:10).

Are we saved by mere works?

Of course not. We are righteous by faith.

BUT! Do we still DO works? Of course!

So should our works OBEY or DISOBEY God's instructions?

Answer: OBEY!

Obey what? TORAH!

(Remember "Torah", Jer. 31:33).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Today it requires a Catholic priest and is not a memorial. We call it Mass

I was wondering about that...

Do Catholic priests literally view themselves as literal Scripturally-authorized priests?

Here's why I ask...

The Scriptures are pretty clear about the definition and function of Levitical priests.

And, Catholic priests surely do not claim to be priests of the order of Melchizedek, right?

So why assume the Catholic conception of "priesthood" is valid, if it is not even Scripturally authorized?

Trying to understand their perspective...

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Are you people going to find out the truth after it is too late, when you are turned away by the Lord. The law is in reference to the entire law and not just to the sacrificial law. Jesus fulfilled the whole thing. As scripture states, the law of Moses--all 600 of them--was meant only to show us our sins and it was only meant to last until the promised seed had come. Now that Christ has come, we are no longer under law as our guardian.

"Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[SUP]i[/SUP] meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. "

By claiming that it was only sacrificial law that was done away with--which by the way is found no where in scripture--you are just circumventing the word of God. In the scripture above, the law that Paul is speaking about that was given 430 years after the promise was given to Abraham, was speaking in regards to the whole law that was given to Israel through Moses and not just the sacrificial law.When will you people let go of your own efforts, as though to take credit for having part in salvation and trust solely in Christ and his finished work?

Hello Ahwatukee,

You wrote: "When will you people let go of your own efforts, as though to take credit for having part in salvation and trust solely in Christ and his finished work?"

My response: I take no credit. I trust SOLELY in Christ and his finished work.

Moving on now!

Should we therefore sin or not?

1. Paul taught we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that we should NOT disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should OBEY Torah (from 3).

So, how long will you disregard this plain Pauline teaching which REQUIRES that we NOT disobey Torah, even though we also trust SOLELY in Christ and his finished work?

Why oppose the very TORAH (see "Torah", Jer. 31:33) of the New Covenant in which you participate?

Remember, the SAME PAUL you quoted above ALSO took a vow to prove he walked "orderly in obedience to the law", even teaching infant circumcision (Ac. 21).

We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9), NOT ignore His Torah-obedient pattern which he modeled, right?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[garee]

Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28). Jesus never said eternal life was impossible to attain!

Yes, eternal Christ was obedient to death. Its not impossible for eternal God in Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God.

According to his eternal work of faith in respect to His promised labor of love..It takes an eternal being to pay the eternal wage for violating any law. And if we stumble in the least the whole eternal wage is needed. Hoping in a purgatory by making His grace insufficient amount to pay the wage as another unknown amount only shows some do despite to the eternal grace of God.

Christians will be judged by the "law of liberty" in respect to His mercy and grace as His unmerited favor... not of our own sinful selves lest any man boast in false pride.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in "one point", he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by "the law of liberty" .Jam 2:10

 

[John146]

Hello John146,

You wrote: "It was their righteousness, not God's righteousness. God's righteousness was not available yet."

My response: NO. Righteousness has ALWAYS been from God by faith, not works, even in the time of Abraham (Rom. 4:1-3), and THE SAME WAY for us who are of the faith of Abraham (Rom. 4:16), who is the father of us all.

AND, now that we all AGREE that we are righteous by FAITH (not by faithless works). Let's move on!

Should we ALSO DO righteous works of obedience to law?

YES! Abraham did (Ge. 26:5), and so should we (1 Jn. 2:29), or else we are NOT of God (1 Jn. 3:10).

Are we saved by mere works?

Of course not. We are righteous by faith.

BUT! Do we still DO works? Of course!

So should our works OBEY or DISOBEY God's instructions?

Answer: OBEY!

Obey what? TORAH!

(Remember "Torah", Jer. 31:33).

blessings...
BibleGuy

Galatians 3:

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Sorry, but it was not available until the death of the testator, Jesus Christ. The one important ingredient you're missing is whose faith? My personal faith or Christ's faith? I'm banking my whole eternal salvation on the faith of Christ. The faith of Christ is imputed to those who believe. As Paul said, Christ's faith was not available to Abraham or any other OT saint.

 

[Dan_473]

Hmmm.....

So you seriously expect us to believe that Paul was FULL OF TRANSGRESSION because he spoke too long? (Ac. 20:7-9)

BibleGuy

JAMES 3:5 So the tongue is also a little member, and boasts great things. See how a small fire can spread to a large forest!

in this case Paul's tongue got the better of him. It happens to me frequently, so I feel like I'm in good company.