about the rich man

[LaurenTM]

You "were taught." But, what have you read from the Bible, completely on your own? Nothing wrong with teachers or books leading you there, but what did you read for yourself?

I read that Jesus said to the thief he would be with Him in paradise...among other things

I'm not trying to have a disagreement with anyone here, sorry if I came across that way

I was asking because it is not saying you go to the grave and wait for the resurrection

seems every thread here is some kind of major disagreement

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm pretty sure it says nothing more than "he fell asleep."...... died, like anyone else, and is today, awaiting resurrection and the judgement......... neither of which has happened yet.

You are still not making a distinction between the body from the soul/spirit. The reference to sleep has to do with the body only. The spirit/soul however--for the believer--goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is one of the teachings that the event of the rich man and Lazarus is meant to convey, which you are resisting. Can you comprehend what the following scriptures are teaching?

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

"But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Now, did you read and understand when Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord that he is referring to when a believer dies that their spirit departs and goes to be in presence of the Lord? How then can you not understand that when it states that Stephan fell asleep it was speaking about his body only? The body dies and is buried, while the spirit/soul departs and is in the presence of the Lord, for the believer only. At the time of the resurrection, Jesus will bring with Him all of those who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

Stop lumping the body and spirit together, for the body is just a tent that houses the spirit/soul. At the time of the death the spirit/soul departs from the body. Stop believing what you have been taught and read the scriptures and believe what you are reading. All I can continue to do is pray that God would open your spiritual eyes and undo the teachings of men that you have adopted, because what you have been teaching is not scripture.

 

[garee]

What? I don't understand what you're saying.
OT or NT? I'm not talking about anything in the NT so I'm confused.

Parables are not time sensitive. There is no reason to not look to the spiritual meaning of that parable. Why would a person look to it as if it was not a parable? How would it affect the gospel? People who have no body have no tongue that needs water. It was a reference for hearing the word of God.

The gospel does not come after necromancy. communing with disembodied workers with familiar spirit or what Catholicism calls venerating by worshiping patron saints.

I would think we would stay as far away from anything that even hints towards worshiping any disembodied worker as a familiar Spirit other the the father of Spirits. That faith (not seen) principle is reserved for God. We pray this manner; "Our father in heaven."

Parables are not time sensitive. They compare the spiritual word to the spiritual .Hiding the spiritual meaning from one while revealing it to His children the kingdom of Priest.. When a person leaves this life under the sun one of two things occur . One, if they are Christian they have passed from eternal judgment to eternal life they go into a sleep and will we awoken on the last day when the last trump sounds.This is when the saints that remain on earth alive will meet together and receive their new incorruptible bodies. The former things here will not be remembered or ever come to mind . and the second a person perishes not having the Spirit of Christ and therefore never coming to new spirit life fore ever more.

 

[garee]

You are still not making a distinction between the body from the soul/spirit. The reference to sleep has to do with the body only.

The corrupted body returns to the lifeless spiritless dust it was taken from. Its dead and not dead asleep like the new spirit we receive at birth in a living hope of receiving our new incorruptible bodies that will never die. .

Dead bodies can do nothing they have no breath of spirit life. And therefore cannot work even to commune like the parable.... (Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.)

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now, did you read and understand when Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord that he is referring to when a believer dies that their spirit departs and goes to be in presence of the Lord?

Yes, fast asleep until the wakeup call the last trump, the last day.

How then can you not understand that when it states that Stephan fell asleep it was speaking about his body only?

It was never about his corrupted body. The saints are awaiting the new bodies .

The body dies and is buried, while the spirit/soul departs and is in the presence of the Lord, for the believer only. At the time of the resurrection, Jesus will bring with Him all of those who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

Not re united but untied for the first time . Which have nothing to do with the bodies that returned to the dust as worm food .
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot "inherit" the kingdom of God; neither doth “corruption” inherit “incorruption”.

 

[garee]

I've asked all types of questions which you continue to avoid answering. All parables are applicable to us today.. if indeed it is a parable and one of Judah and his 5 brothers please explain how we apply it..

If you don't mind I'd appreciate the other questions answered..

It does not mention Judah .It fairly easy five can represent redemption .But it’s not the point of the parable. The point or object lesson is if any man does not hear sola scriptura, the entirety of God’s revealed will called the hearing of faith then neither would they believe if Christ arose from the dead .
He came to his own but they denied Christ had come as he promised he would. It has the same lesson as the parable of the transfiguration . Using Mosses and Elijah to represent sola scriptura. Hear Christ not the dead asleep. He has come and gone.


2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie T, you have yet to say why the parable is about Judah and his 5 brothers.. All we get are cocky comebacks and college vocabulary to run us around a Bush.. Teach teacher if you can. you've proven nothing..
Moses and the prophets didn't teach about Jesus they only had foreshadows.. I again am not convinced you have some insight my friend.

Everyone else thank you for your knowledge on the subject, I have quite a bit to go over and gain from.

Who is Judah? What people are referenced when his name is used in conjunction with a people group?

 

[Willie-T]

Oh for goodness sake just post your gotcha Willie, my grandfather at a younger age than you was more mature.

If you are going to include my previous exceptions, such as a book I have never read, which I purchased by Clares reccomendation, I already went there as an exception in another conversation, if you are going to go on about recipes, I do cook, if you are going to count the online book of Enoch which I already stated openly I have read four times or books on the death of a child when mine passed, have at it.

I have not one recollection of a single book outside the scriptures that I have purchased outside of those for over 20 years

If you found one by digging through something that I missed for goodness sake lets get on with it and post the gotcha

I'm not the one boasting, just a day ago, that I will not read anything but the Bible, and that is all I have done for 20 years. No "gotcha" necessary. You actually bragged about that, so I was wondering why you were telling other people to search out things on Google.

I, personally, think it is a wise thing to read many people, and couldn't imagine why you were so proud of never reading anything but the Bible.

 

[pottersclay]

Again as I posted before why did the o.t. saints that were dead walk the streets of Jerusalem and were seen post crucifixion of Jesus.
Before Jesus ascended he descended for what purpose.....to set the captives free. Was this not one of Jesus's purposes to set captives free?

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

I'm not the one boasting, just a day ago, that I will not read anything but the Bible, and that is all I have done for 20 years. No "gotcha" necessary. You actually bragged about that, so I was wondering why you were telling other people to search out things on Google.

I, personally, think it is a wise thing to read many people, and couldn't imagine why you were so proud of never reading anything but the Bible.

What do you want Willie?

Can you just spit it out?

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Pride= when someone asks you if you read something (they did) but saying no, you dont read anything but one book

Thats boasting, I gotcha LOL

 

[HisHolly]

Parables are not time sensitive. There is no reason to not look to the spiritual meaning of that parable. Why would a person look to it as if it was not a parable? How would it affect the gospel? People who have no body have no tongue that needs water. It was a reference for hearing the word of God.

The gospel does not come after necromancy. communing with disembodied workers with familiar spirit or what Catholicism calls venerating by worshiping patron saints.

I would think we would stay as far away from anything that even hints towards worshiping any disembodied worker as a familiar Spirit other the the father of Spirits. That faith (not seen) principle is reserved for God. We pray this manner; "Our father in heaven."

Parables are not time sensitive. They compare the spiritual word to the spiritual .Hiding the spiritual meaning from one while revealing it to His children the kingdom of Priest.. When a person leaves this life under the sun one of two things occur . One, if they are Christian they have passed from eternal judgment to eternal life they go into a sleep and will we awoken on the last day when the last trump sounds.This is when the saints that remain on earth alive will meet together and receive their new incorruptible bodies. The former things here will not be remembered or ever come to mind . and the second a person perishes not having the Spirit of Christ and therefore never coming to new spirit life fore ever more.

Yes thank you. But I was talking about actual words written so I knew where to follow from..

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

But telling me that you and your wife hook up wino homosexuals in hotels isnt boasting or sounding the trumpet??

LOL Seriously?

 

[HisHolly]

Parables are not time sensitive. There is no reason to not look to the spiritual meaning of that parable. Why would a person look to it as if it was not a parable? How would it affect the gospel? People who have no body have no tongue that needs water. It was a reference for hearing the word of God.

The gospel does not come after necromancy. communing with disembodied workers with familiar spirit or what Catholicism calls venerating by worshiping patron saints.

I would think we would stay as far away from anything that even hints towards worshiping any disembodied worker as a familiar Spirit other the the father of Spirits. That faith (not seen) principle is reserved for God. We pray this manner; "Our father in heaven."

Parables are not time sensitive. They compare the spiritual word to the spiritual .Hiding the spiritual meaning from one while revealing it to His children the kingdom of Priest.. When a person leaves this life under the sun one of two things occur . One, if they are Christian they have passed from eternal judgment to eternal life they go into a sleep and will we awoken on the last day when the last trump sounds.This is when the saints that remain on earth alive will meet together and receive their new incorruptible bodies. The former things here will not be remembered or ever come to mind . and the second a person perishes not having the Spirit of Christ and therefore never coming to new spirit life fore ever more.

It does not mention Judah .It fairly easy five can represent redemption .But it’s not the point of the parable. The point or object lesson is if any man does not hear sola scriptura, the entirety of God’s revealed will called the hearing of faith then neither would they believe if Christ arose from the dead .
He came to his own but they denied Christ had come as he promised he would. It has the same lesson as the parable of the transfiguration . Using Mosses and Elijah to represent sola scriptura. Hear Christ not the dead asleep. He has come and gone.


2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I didn't say it did.. Willie T said it was about Judah so I was asking him to explain if indeed it true.. again Thank you but you missed why I asked..

 

[Willie-T]

I read that Jesus said to the thief he would be with Him in paradise...among other things

I'm not trying to have a disagreement with anyone here, sorry if I came across that way

I was asking because it is not saying you go to the grave and wait for the resurrection

seems every thread here is some kind of major disagreement

I'll use the verse you brought up.

I assume you already know there were no commas in the Bible. So, you must understand that just that simple translated remark could mean two different things if the the comma is removed.

(Go look at the verse, and try it. Read it with the comma, and read it without the comma.)

But that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.... just showing you that you can get pretty fouled up by "literally" reading what your favorite translation put in print.

My point (to return to it) was that if the thief "slept" for seven minutes or 23 thousand years (or any amount of time) after he died on that cross, the moment Christ revived him, THAT would be the very first day he would be conscious of since his death. To him, he would, at that moment, be with Jesus the very next time he reopened his spiritual eyes..... in other words, "this day."

 

[Willie-T]

But telling me that you and your wife hook up wino homosexuals in hotels isnt boasting or sounding the trumpet??

LOL Seriously?

We do. And I spoke the truth about that. But, I don't tell people I do something, then turn right around and tell them not to do the same.

You said the Bible was all you used to get your Spiritual information (I said "Spiritual" so you won't feel inclined to start talking about recipes again), and then you told people to use google to get THEIR information.

 

[HisHolly]

I'll use the verse you brought up.

I assume you already know there were no commas in the Bible. So, you must understand that just that simple translated remark could mean two different things if the the comma is removed.

(Go look at the verse, and try it. Read it with the comma, and read it without the comma.)

But that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.... just showing you that you can get pretty fouled up by "literally" reading what your favorite translation put in print.

My point (to return to it) was that if the thief "slept" for seven minutes or 23 thousand years (or any amount of time) after he died on that cross, the moment Christ revived him, THAT would be the very first day he would be conscious of since his death. To him, he would, at that moment, be with Jesus the very next time he reopened his spiritual eyes..... in other words, "this day."

Willie T, I admire your steadiness.

Can I ask what you think about all the personal accounts of those who have died in our times and came back to their body? They said they either went to heaven or he'll.
What about the spirit who doesn't sleep, what happens with him or her?

Is that considered derailing bc I'm still in line with the OP with plans to bring it full circle..

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

We do. And I spoke the truth about that. But, I don't tell people I do something, then turn right around and tell them not to do the same.

You said the Bible was all you used to get your Spiritual information (I said "Spiritual" so you won't feel inclined to start talking about recipes again), and then you told people to use google to get THEIR information.

I told her to google it rather then go to another christian site where the Lazarus and the rich man threads are because its against the rules LOL!

Your hated of me and your nit picking are pathetic, its against the rules Willie, sometimes people need to get them to google to get them directed without actually directing them

Too funny.

You boast of yoursef and trumpet what Jesus tells you not to (not because you love these folks but because your wife is apparently repulsed about bringing them into your home as you laugh about their hygiene here

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137968-deep-theology-made-simple-3.html#post2673274

But out of no where lurking in the dark you decide to emmerge coming in at me only to laugh for stating I only read Gods words, thats beautiful.

Thats sick

 

[Willie-T]

Willie T, I admire your steadiness.

Can I ask what you think about all the personal accounts of those who have died in our times and came back to their body? They said they either went to heaven or he'll.
What about the spirit who doesn't sleep, what happens with him or her?

Is that considered derailing bc I'm still in line with the OP with plans to bring it full circle..

What does the Bible say about "all the personal accounts of those who have died in our times and came back to their body? They said they either went to heaven or he'll?"
"ZERO" That's about the same credence I give the people telling those stories.

Where would you have me go to read about "the spirit who doesn't sleep?" I don't know who you are talking about.

Derailing? You have never heard me breathe a single word about any imperative to stay on the OP..... I have ALWAYS said to follow the conversation wherever it leads (as long as someone isn't deliberately trolling.)

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'll use the verse you brought up.

I assume you already know there were no commas in the Bible. So, you must understand that just that simple translated remark could mean two different things if the the comma is removed.

(Go look at the verse, and try it. Read it with the comma, and read it without the comma.)

But that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.... just showing you that you can get pretty fouled up by "literally" reading what your favorite translation put in print.

My point (to return to it) was that if the thief "slept" for seven minutes or 23 thousand years (or any amount of time) after he died on that cross, the moment Christ revived him, THAT would be the very first day he would be conscious of since his death. To him, he would, at that moment, be with Jesus the very next time he reopened his spiritual eyes..... in other words, "this day."

As I said, you need to read the word of God and believe what it says. This false teaching of the comma being in the wrong place is a well known false teaching, which you learned and adopted. I might remind you that every major translation has the comma in the same place, which is after the word "You," as in "truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Your version focuses on Jesus telling the man what day he was giving him this information, which makes Jesus sound like He's doing Shakespeare in the park. "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Did Jesus really need to inform the man of what day he was giving him this information. I have dealt with other people many times regarding this same idiotic claim of the comma being in the wrong place.

My point (to return to it) was that if the thief "slept" for seven minutes or 23 thousand years (or any amount of time) after he died on that cross, the moment Christ revived him, THAT would be the very first day he would be conscious of since his death. To him, he would, at that moment, be with Jesus the very next time he reopened his spiritual eyes..... in other words, "this day

This is what you are not understanding. While the body is asleep (dead), his spirit/soul is conscious and aware. This is one of the teachings within the rich man and Lazarus i.e. their spirit/souls are conscious and aware. How can you make your claim above when the spirit of the rich man is having a conversation with Abraham and Lazarus and he makes the claim that he is in torment in flame? Those spirits of believers who are currently in Christ's presence will remember everything and will then be reunited with their resurrected bodies at the time of the resurrection.

 

[Willie-T]

I told her to google it rather then go to another christian site where the Lazarus and the rich man threads are because its against the rules LOL!

Your hated of me and your nit picking are pathetic, its against the rules Willie, sometimes people need to get them to google to get them directed without actually directing them

Too funny.

You boast of yoursef and trumpet what Jesus tells you not to (not because you love these folks but because your wife is apparently repulsed about bringing them into your home as you laugh about their hygiene here

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137968-deep-theology-made-simple-3.html#post2673274

But out of no where lurking in the dark you decide to emmerge coming in at me only to laugh for stating I only read Gods words, thats beautiful.

Thats sick

No, if you had chosen to receive PM's you would already know what I am doing... and why.